The Sky Train

jibberjim

TheBigBean wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Do the Germans have a better plan? A silver medal for Greipel with a small possibility of Gold is surely better than no hope at all.

Degenkolb from a smaller group - but would probably still be beaten by Goss in that scenario.

and Sagan too.

They've only got 2 or at most 3 riders though presumably, so the Velits (1 or 2 of them) would have to do well to keep him in a good position. But yes, it's hardly a great plan B - at least it is another scenario beyond griepel though.

alirainsbury

Alwaystoohot wrote:

Monty Zoncolan wrote:

Alwaystoohot wrote:

he's fallen twice being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Not wanting to be argumentative but is this right? As I recall the two finishes, he was ready to crank it up at the end of the first, only for Ferrari to swerve wildly across him, and in the second he was taking quite a sensible line around that last bend, only to be forced either into the barrier or to go over another rider (Pozzato?) by a series of falls around him. The factors causing him to lose out were more to do with erratic riding by others and, you could argue, the weather.

I can think of plenty of times under the old HTC/Columbia/Highroad guard where Cav would have been in a similar position to where he was on those two stages - he didn't always get a nice clear tow all the way to the line.

In the first race the Sky lads flaked off too early after some epic leading by Stannard and Cav was up there alone with no protection, in the second, Goss had him beat - again the train ran out of steam and Cav was no where to be seen 400m before the fateful corner - again alone. The pre-sprint is great, the whole sprint community is using Sky to set the pace and pull them along them boom - they nip past and Cav is in no better a position than the other sprinters. Don't tell me Goss or Renshaw are worried by the prospect of a Sky lead out, in fact they know how best to use it!

Genuine question, as you've got me intrigued. What is different about the Sky lead-out train to the HTC one of old? Why can people do that off Sky's efforts, but couldn't do it over the last few years off HTC?

jibberjim

alirainsbury wrote:

Genuine question, as you've got me intrigued. What is different about the Sky lead-out train to the HTC one of old? Why can people do that off Sky's efforts, but couldn't do it over the last few years off HTC?

The quality of it. HTC went with 8 riders all to look after Cav, and most of them were very, very good - Tony Martin could spend a lot more time on the front at a higher speed than Stannard however good you think he is. Wiggins could do close to the same, but that's no good for a GC rider as opposed to a TT specialist. A full strength dedicated Sky team focussed on it would be very similar if not better - the problem comes that the team will never be that focussed.

plectrum

andyp wrote:

You're only little, aren't you Rick? Doesn't seem fair to settle this outside.

As for Box Hill, it's not that tough a climb and, with a 30 mile run in, there's time to recover before a sprint. There will be enough nations, like the British, the Germans, the Australians and the Americans who'll want a sprint and they'll close the race down.

Let's be honest Box Hill is a piece of piss.

plectrum

jibberjim wrote:

alirainsbury wrote:

Genuine question, as you've got me intrigued. What is different about the Sky lead-out train to the HTC one of old? Why can people do that off Sky's efforts, but couldn't do it over the last few years off HTC?

The quality of it. HTC went with 8 riders all to look after Cav, and most of them were very, very good - Tony Martin could spend a lot more time on the front at a higher speed than Stannard however good you think he is. Wiggins could do close to the same, but that's no good for a GC rider as opposed to a TT specialist. A full strength dedicated Sky team focussed on it would be very similar if not better - the problem comes that the team will never be that focussed.

HTC were incredibly focused on Cav and incredibly aggressive in the final run in. I've seen many a race where once on the front the pace was so brutal that the other teams try as they might just couldn't get up close enough to the first 5 to cause any interference. Also Cav didn't have to give any thought, he had full confidence in every member which was partly due to their quality but also due to the time spent with that team.

So far though Sky are on course and meeting each target/obective they have set. When the team formed it targeted Tour de France podium and perhaps win within 5 years. So this in year 3(is it) and they are going in with the tour favourite which truly is to everyone in pro cycling's utter amazement. All other teams and DS have been trying it for years and years and with far more entrenched lead road cyclist.

I have no reason to doubt that over the next 3 years Sky will bring Cavendish all the glory his skill deserves.

Caveat for Wiggo - I unfortunately still feel that a juicer will win this year's Tour; unfair but based on history almost certain.

RichN95.

alirainsbury wrote:

Genuine question, as you've got me intrigued. What is different about the Sky lead-out train to the HTC one of old? Why can people do that off Sky's efforts, but couldn't do it over the last few years off HTC?

The main difference is that the HTC team you saw last year was the result of five years of development. By contrast, Cavendish has barely raced with Thomas and Kennaugh. The partnership with Renshaw was a bit of shambles in the first couple of months.

Yellow Peril

Sky are coming good on the train. I still think they are working too hard too far out. There best showing in the Giro was for Cav's second stage win(?) in which they had about 6 riders still pulling in the last couple of Km's. On that occassion they had let another team chase the break earlier on.

Pross

The other thing with HTC was they had a settled train whereas Sky use whoever has been sent to the race. I still think too much has been made of the lack of train though. Cav has won two stages of the Giro, crashed once when no lead out train could have helped and he would probably have won, crashed again when he lost his lead out train and wouldn't have won in any case and come 4th on another stage with his lead out man making a mistake. Most teams would be more than happy with that.

ruswilks

Sky's train generally hasn't been that bad - on the Ferrari stage Cav lost G's wheel in a corner with about 2km to go, but decided to sit further back rather than try and get back on it. Thomas seemed to spend most of 2km to 800m to go looking over his shoulder for Cav but he didn't make an attempt to move back up so G swung off.

The other crash came after a climb in the last few km, so Cav was further back than was ideal, but as someone above said, there was no point Sky driving on the front if Cav has dropped half way down the peloton on the climb.

Wednesday's stage was the only time Sky really got it wrong, and even then it was due to Kennaugh and Thomas overcooking the corner so Cav had to brake rather than the train breaking up, they were perfect positioning-wise given how close they were to the line.

There's a lack of continuity in Sky's train aswell this year, he's been led out by Thomas, EBH, and Sutton and I'd imagine Swift was earmarked for the job at the Giro before his shoulder injury. Throw in a couple of guys coming off training for the track aswell and they've not done too badly at the Giro.

thamacdaddy

It will also be a different train at TdF surely. Perhaps stannard and eisel will make it but the rest? EBH switched in for Thomas or maybe swift? Wiggins will surely do a turn before 3km as GC now want to be at the front before final 3km anyway. Suitsou will be in for sure and possibly instead of stannard. You are going to see Porte and possibly Danny pate as well, be interesting if froome is fit enough or whether porte is enough support in the hills for wiggo. They still have decent fast men who can do the last few turns in Swift, EBH and Apollonio.

Anyway the only fault the Sky train did in the ferrari stage is kennaugh taking the corner wrong, thomas following Vaitkus who dips out from behind kennaugh as he slows near the barriers. Thomas then had to slow to avoid kennaugh and cav was over geared to react to ferrari fast enough. Simple small mistakes that anyone could make. We saw HTC train in shambles more than enough to know they weren't the picture of perfection being made out here. Cav has done just fine so far and I am more interested in how Sky are going to do it differently to HTC with the GC and Green ambitions not how they should try and emulate it.

rick_chasey

No Thomas is a loss for the train, for sure.

inkyfingers

Thomas is a machine in the last few KMs, but EBH could (and probably will) perform that duty at the tour.

rick_chasey

inkyfingers wrote:

Thomas is a machine in the last few KMs, but EBH could (and probably will) perform that duty at the tour.

Aye but it's Thomas' movement in and around the front which sets him apart from EBH.
He's as good as Renshaw was in that department.

inkyfingers

Rick Chasey wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

Thomas is a machine in the last few KMs, but EBH could (and probably will) perform that duty at the tour.

Aye but it's Thomas' movement in and around the front which sets him apart from EBH.
He's as good as Renshaw was in that department.

Wouldn't argue with that, EBH has the raw power but not the brains.

Monty Dog

Today's Giro stage proved that Cav doesn't lead a GB Team for a lead out - he's clever enough to know which wheels to follow.

RichN95.

inkyfingers wrote:

Wouldn't argue with that, EBH has the raw power but not the brains.

Cavendish needs to tell him what to do then.

In his book, Robbie McEwen describes Steegmens in similar terms. He said he just told him what to do and he did it exactly.

shinyhelmut

Monty Dog wrote:

Today's Giro stage proved that Cav doesn't lead a GB Team for a lead out - he's clever enough to know which wheels to follow.

Last year's world championships proved that. It also proved that he needs a strong GB team to ensure the race ends in a sprint and he's there.