Am I the only one who.........

pauldavid

Is sick to death of reading and seeing one group of employees or another campaigning or marching against some perceived injustice against them and does it ever help.....?

And before anyone gets on their high horse about the government, if you think any other party leading us would change anything your wrong, they're all shysters they just wear different coloured ties.

I consider myself to have a relatively good job and am most probably in the top 25% of earners in my area of the country, however I've not had a pay rise in the last 5 years and my pension isn't what it said on the tin either. My workload has increased in the same period twofold. However I'm not out blocking the bloody roads up stopping people who do ant to just get on with it from doing so.

We appear to have turned into a nation of whingers and complainers with half empty glasses, if you don't like where you are get out.

And before anyone tells me there are no jobs, I get approached by agencies several times a month with opportunities, I stay where I am as I don't believe it will be better anywhere else and better the devil you know.

The problem with most people is they don't want to look at jobs they feel are beneath them, most students leave college believing they are going to be chairman of BP and scream discrimination or ask what the government ae going to do to help hem when they're told to start at a relatively low level to gain real world experience that can't be had from a text book.

That's better, I'm off back to work now see ya

finchy

Are you trolling?

GiantMike

You are whinging about your job. You're making your thoughts known right now. As I drive past this 'protest' I'm metaphorically honking my horn to support you. Have you forfeited any salary during this protest?

Nice placard by the way. I never realised you had such nice handwriting.

pauldavid

No not whining, just saying that most are in the same boat.

Our pensions are crap, so what deal with it. So are everyone else's.

GiantMike

So if you worked in the public sector and you felt a genuine greivance about changes to your pension, you'd just accept it?

Who is your pension provider? If it's a private pension company and they misled you with false claims about the value of your pension pot you should consider complaining to The Pensions Ombudsman If, however, you have a private pension with 'aspirations of pension value linked to an investment strategy by some London wheeler dealer who now has a large yacht paid for by your contributions', then that's an entirely different situation to if you'd been promised a pension by the Govt with a certain value as a part of your terms and conditions of employment. The latter is the case with Public Sector workers.

shockedsoshocked

Fucking hell.

verylonglegs

I manage my own pension, deciding what and when I buy and sell. Who do I complain to? Can I strike against myself?
It means I miss out on my employers matched contributions but I decided pretty early on in my career that pension fund managers were by and large guessers, chancers and generally full of poop. Plus, why would you hand over thousands of pounds of your money that you will come to rely on at your most vunerable point in life to be looked after by someone you don't really know? Madness imo.

laurentian

GiantMike wrote:

. . . if you'd been promised a pension

Promised????

bianchimoon

verylonglegs wrote:

I manage my own pension, deciding what and when I buy and sell. Who do I complain to? Can I strike against myself?
It means I miss out on my employers matched contributions but I decided pretty early on in my career that pension fund managers were by and large guessers, chancers and generally full of poop. Plus, why would you hand over thousands of pounds of your money that you will come to rely on at your most vunerable point in life to be looked after by someone you don't really know? Madness imo.

Good on you, been thinking about doing this myself but always put it off, any tips, advice?
Back to the original post, answer is some will agree with you, some will disagree no one's right, no one's wrong

daviesee

GiantMike wrote:

...... by some London wheeler dealer who now has a large yacht paid for by your contributions', then that's an entirely different situation to if you'd been promised a pension by the Govt ....

Struggling to see the difference between the two. :twisted:

team47b

verylonglegs wrote:

I manage my own pension, deciding what and when I buy and sell. Who do I complain to? Can I strike against myself?
It means I miss out on my employers matched contributions but I decided pretty early on in my career that pension fund managers were by and large guessers, chancers and generally full of poop. Plus, why would you hand over thousands of pounds of your money that you will come to rely on at your most vunerable point in life to be looked after by someone you don't really know? Madness imo.

Exactly!

Who has your best interests at heart...you do.

Did the same, retired at 51, where else would you get a pension that good, the only person getting fat on my contributions is me.

tim_wand

Paul David. Good for you, its great that you are accepting of your situation, and yes it is extremely hard to tender any public support for public sector workers who on the whole are facing the same austerity measures as anyone else out there working in the private sector.

As you say , you are in the top 25% or earners in your area. I dont know what area that is or in which sector/ industry or role you work. I would proffer though that there arent too many public sector workers in your area who could make the same claim, or affoard additional expenditure to booster or manage their own pension funds.

Until recently I was a prison officer (and branch chair of the union/ so colours to the mast), I now work in the private sector and receive more renumeration for what I see as a less stressful job which require a lower skill set and less additonal non contracted hours and commitment from me. My choice to leave was one that involved a great deal of risk taking which fortunately worked out, mainly due to the support of my partner, but not one I could truely advocate to those in the public sector who rightly arent happy .

What a great deal of people fail to remember is that Pensions are not a perk. Pensions are just deferred pay which forms part of your original renumeration package and contract. If you signed up for a contract which from the off set gave you no pension rights, then that was your choice and perogative.

However many in the public sector, such as myself once, accepted that our day to day renumeration would not be as high as many in the private sector, but our total renumeration package (Pensions/ Holidays e.t.c) made it acceptable and thats what we contracted to.

I know the counter arguement now a days is that the Public sector pays as much as the private, but honestly in most front line roles thats just not the case, its only the culture of there being too many managers in the public sector which has scewered pay to look like it equates to private sector jobs.

I took my branch out on strike on August 2007, because impositions to terms and conditions on our members was making the job dangerous. Within 4 hours the Ministry of Justice had secured an injunction in the high court which if fully exercise would have given them the right to seize my bank account and house.

The right to collective bargaining has been removed from the vast majority of public sector workers whilst major changes to their terms and conditions have been imposed upon them.

During the same period from 2007, successive Governments and ministers have voted through motions which have resulted in their own pension pots being boosted by 47% to counter any shortage.

Yer any goverment would do the same, but it does rub when two boys from Eton are kicking the crap out of the rest of us to recover the errors their mates in the city and banking created.

ilm_zero7

pauldavid wrote:

No not whining, just saying that most are in the same boat.

Our pensions are crap, so what deal with it. So are everyone else's.

exactly ! well said

tim_wand

ILM Zero7 wrote:

pauldavid wrote:

No not whining, just saying that most are in the same boat.

Our pensions are crap, so what deal with it. So are everyone else's.

exactly ! well said

ILM Zero 7 quick question do you get tax relief on your Uk pension in Doha? or are you still working and contributing tax through PAYE and NI to pay for public services in the UK?

Maybe your an Ex pat and have done so for many years, thought in that case you d be here benefitting from your contributions and our world class public services.

Big Hairy Wallapers

To the OP.
Well said and I agree with all of it.
If you dont like your job, leave it and do something else.
If your pension is mince, welcome to the real world that everyone else has been living in for 10-15 years.
If you want the government/any other government to pay an old pension in full do you want to pay vastly more tax to fill the undoubted black hole.

Stop bleating and get back to work before they get someone else to do it
Oh and some professions, prison offices etc shouldn't legally be allowed to strike. Ever.

tim_wand

Big Hairy Wallapers wrote:

To the OP.

Oh and some professions, prison offices etc shouldn't legally be allowed to strike. Ever.

Why? Collective bargaining, the ability to discuss and negotiate your terms and conditions of employment is a right

Admittedly one that comes with a responsibility, a responsibility to realism, and most people in the public service will acknowledge that certain changes are necessary for the good of all. What irks is when they are imposed, without consultation or consideration, and are not equalateral in their intent or impact.

If you want to supervise 160 murderers with just one colleague instead of 6, then feel free (as you said, as I did I wasnt happy I left)

The average time a Prison officer draws their pension is 18 months, Which mean those who retain the right to retire at 60 may see it, Now the Gate posts is 68, and you will be required to be operational staffing landings full of 20 year old junkies and keeping the peace ( oh and in a lot of cases required to pass a fitness test every year)
until your 68. Its a simple demographics game, we are living longer, so lets make the entitlement age higher , so more die and never make it.

As you say we choose the profession, we can choose to leave. Thats exactly what the goverment want, to de skill us and replace us with new recruits who get £14 k a year and no pension rights, (or even better have no public prisons at all and let the Private sector run them/ and we all know how well that works.)

Every one in employment has the right to collective bargaining except, Prison officers, we have been on strike for a total of 2 days in nearly 80 years.

Fundamentally you are right, no one is forcing our arms up our back to be there, but you cannot remove an employees right to negotiate there terms and conditions with there employer, and the imposition of changes with no dialogue is effectively that, and only leaves one way or communicating your concerns,

BelgianBeerGeek

^+ 1 to timwand.

I work in the public sector. I'm not a union member, so have no real axe to grind from that perspective. It does depend on what you think the government should do for YOU. Remember, as our great leader says "We're all in this together".
Who should do what? Is it the government's business to run defence, health, education, or the justice system? If so, should they farm it out to the private sector? A lot of defence services for example are already run by large French or other foreign owned companies.
If you really want nothing from the government (local or national), then fair enough. Most want something, even if it's only your bin emptying.
Also, some now working in the public sector used to work in the private, and vice versa. So it may not be as clear cut as you think. Shades of grey, and all that.

finchy

I do wonder if those who constantly complain about other workers going on strike take advantage of the entitlements that organised labour won in the past - paid holidays, sick leave, etc. 'Cos it seems to me that they're always willing to take advantage of everything that other people fought for, but then complain when people go on strike.

laurentian

Some very good and enlightening posts above - from both sides of the argument.

The bit of the argument that I don't understand is this:

If the government turned around tomorrow and said "OK chaps, we'll bow to your demands and pay you the pensions that you want" Where would the money come from?

Regardless of who is to blame for the shortfall, we are where we are, the cupboard is bare. How will the extra quazillions needed to fund the Public Sector pensions, the libraries, hospitals, roads, schools etc - all of whom are protesting to a greater or lesser degree - be raised?

The only way is by greater taxation of the Private Sector (yes, I know that the Public Sector is taxed too but that's robbing Peter to pay Peter). This would mean less disposable income throughout the Nation and the spiral that we are currently balancing on the precipice of would begin to pull the whole house down.

Where would the money come from?

tim_wand

Laurentian. Fantastic and intelligent point. We are in a mess and its got to be paid for or provisioned for some how.

I must bore people with the amount of times I comment on here , on how peverse it is that we have a system that pays out more in Welfare benefits than it is able to recover in PAYE and NI contributions.

None the less I feel this is central and pertinent (if leading on to other arguements/issues).

It seems to be endemic in a large part of society and culture nowadays that people are more concerned about their own entitlements than in how they can make a contribution.

Dare I say a great deal of public sector workers are making a contribution, directly throught their work and once again through their tax and Ni, so maybe they do feel entitled to see some benefit from that rather than being a continual soft target for the imposition of Government constraints.

Why are we not seeing the same rigorous Government control of private corporations (Such as Amazon) who make £7 billion pound profit trading in this country every year but pay no tax as they are registered in Luxembourg.

Our Goverment has recently decided to lower the higher earning income tax threshold to 45% in an attempt to try and encourage a moral amnestey upon those who have succesfully evaded the 50% threshold, its as though they are admitting they are powerless and hope to appeal to high earners to do the right thing (Good luck with that)

The public sector is getting hit hard, because we are a soft target against whom the Government and ministers can legislate any powers they require to quash our concerns. They seem either unwilling or unable to do so in other areas.

Why should those on benefits not make a contribution through community work (slavery they cry)

If they dont then you are relying on an ever under resourced Public sector to cover the void.

It appears to me that we have a Government that is totally absorbed with protecting "the city" and private enterprise (maybe it does so because this is where a great deal of our GDP is produced) . But it looks increasingly to me that it does this to detriment of the common man whilst protecting the interests of those they attended school with.

I dont know where the money is coming from to solve this problem but I know who took it in the first place.

finchy

laurentian, it is indeed a fair question, and one that I don't mind admitting I don't know the answer to, but one thing to bear in mind is that public sector workers are not, on the whole, recipients of some massive, gold-plated pension.

verylonglegs

bianchimoon wrote:

verylonglegs wrote:

I manage my own pension, deciding what and when I buy and sell. Who do I complain to? Can I strike against myself?
It means I miss out on my employers matched contributions but I decided pretty early on in my career that pension fund managers were by and large guessers, chancers and generally full of poop. Plus, why would you hand over thousands of pounds of your money that you will come to rely on at your most vunerable point in life to be looked after by someone you don't really know? Madness imo.

Good on you, been thinking about doing this myself but always put it off, any tips, advice?
Back to the original post, answer is some will agree with you, some will disagree no one's right, no one's wrong

I use hargreaves lansdown for a SIPP, no complaints so far but I'm sure there are other services equally good. Books... John Kay has written a couple of what I found to be very useful ones and reading the financial pages of a broadsheet can give you an idea of things though remember their columnists are only giving their view too, the FT also have a guide book too. Truth is the bulk of my investing is the fairly dull long term safe stuff (as safe as investing in shares can be anyway!) but that is what it should be imo.

shockedsoshocked

johnfinch wrote:

I do wonder if those who constantly complain about other workers going on strike take advantage of the entitlements that organised labour won in the past - paid holidays, sick leave, etc. 'Cos it seems to me that they're always willing to take advantage of everything that other people fought for, but then complain when people go on strike.

+1

My dad has been an active Union member all his life, and occasionally represented whole sites when it comes to meetings (because "he can talk dead good n' tha'"). He's stuck his neck out plenty of times and suffered for it, where as he knows plenty of lads who'll happily sit at home or go through a picket for a days wage instead of fighting for simply what they're entitled to by the book. It annoys him people risk nothing then receive the benefits.

EKIMIKE

laurentian wrote:

Where would the money come from?

F**k it, just 'make' some. They do it already but it almost exclusively goes straight onto the balance sheets of large banks.

Then there's the War chest...

And maybe if super rich people paid their taxes in full instead of giving to the charity of their choice :roll:

Man, i sound like a broken record.

rolf_f

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

I do wonder if those who constantly complain about other workers going on strike take advantage of the entitlements that organised labour won in the past - paid holidays, sick leave, etc. 'Cos it seems to me that they're always willing to take advantage of everything that other people fought for, but then complain when people go on strike.

+1

My dad has been an active Union member all his life, and occasionally represented whole sites when it comes to meetings (because "he can talk dead good n' tha'"). He's stuck his neck out plenty of times and suffered for it, where as he knows plenty of lads who'll happily sit at home or go through a picket for a days wage instead of fighting for simply what they're entitled to by the book. It annoys him people risk nothing then receive the benefits.

What's with the '+1'? You aren't agreeing with JohnFinch. He commented on people receiving benefits that strikes have delivered and then complaining when other people strike. Your Dad appears to be an idiot that seems to think that employers should pay staff who strike more than those who don't - this is a different thing. All that would do is encourage more people to strike and why would any employer want that?

I can't see a reasoanble argument against the idea that many of us haven't benefited hugely from the actions of strikers (I hope I've got my double/triple negatives right there!). But, if you choose to go on strike, you do so knowing that you are striking for everyone whether or not they are taking part.

tim_wand

Wheres the money going to come from?

How about

Ring fenced 0.7% of GDP going to foreign overseas fund, the highest proportion of any country in the G8

Well over £20 Billion spent on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan since 1990 to 2010

(Strange juxtaposition between those two, maybe we should pay more attention to matters at home )


I would imagine that amounts to a fair chunk of the deficit which we pay £70 billion on in interest alone each year.

StillGoing

tim wand wrote:

Big Hairy Wallapers wrote:

To the OP.

Oh and some professions, prison offices etc shouldn't legally be allowed to strike. Ever.

Why? Collective bargaining, the ability to discuss and negotiate your terms and conditions of employment is a right

Admittedly one that comes with a responsibility, a responsibility to realism, and most people in the public service will acknowledge that certain changes are necessary for the good of all. What irks is when they are imposed, without consultation or consideration, and are not equalateral in their intent or impact.

If you want to supervise 160 murderers with just one colleague instead of 6, then feel free (as you said, as I did I wasnt happy I left)

The average time a Prison officer draws their pension is 18 months, Which mean those who retain the right to retire at 60 may see it, Now the Gate posts is 68, and you will be required to be operational staffing landings full of 20 year old junkies and keeping the peace ( oh and in a lot of cases required to pass a fitness test every year)
until your 68. Its a simple demographics game, we are living longer, so lets make the entitlement age higher , so more die and never make it.

As you say we choose the profession, we can choose to leave. Thats exactly what the goverment want, to de skill us and replace us with new recruits who get £14 k a year and no pension rights, (or even better have no public prisons at all and let the Private sector run them/ and we all know how well that works.)

Every one in employment has the right to collective bargaining except, Prison officers, we have been on strike for a total of 2 days in nearly 80 years.

Fundamentally you are right, no one is forcing our arms up our back to be there, but you cannot remove an employees right to negotiate there terms and conditions with there employer, and the imposition of changes with no dialogue is effectively that, and only leaves one way or communicating your concerns,

Wrong; police officers have even less rights.

rick_chasey

philthy3 wrote:

Wrong; police officers have even less rights.

laurentian

johnfinch wrote:

laurentian, it is indeed a fair question, and one that I don't mind admitting I don't know the answer to, but one thing to bear in mind is that public sector workers are not, on the whole, recipients of some massive, gold-plated pension.

Johnfinch - the first person I have liaised with (on or off this board) who has admitted that they don't know where the money would come from. Well in!

I have not heard one union leader, one striker, one politician tell us where this money would come from.

Although not all "gold plated" I have seen (anectdotally) enough examples of what someone in the Private Sector would have to make in contributions to match the pension benefits of retirees in the public sector under present arrangements and it would mean paying the mortgage and making pension contributions and not a lot else!

Although I fully sympathise, indeed empathise, with people who were expecting one thing and have been told to expect another (yes, my pension is f*cked as well and my salary a fraction of what it was three years ago!), I cannot take seriously anyone in this argument who cannot answer the question of where the money will come from, however aggrieved they feel or whatever their perceived injustice.

The rubbish about taxing bankers bonuses offered by some politicians, even if enacted, would barely scrape the surface of the shortfall, tax Amazon's £70,000,000,000? that gets us £1.4bn in revenue, stop tax avoidance? How much will that really generate? and so on.

All, I'm afraid, are populist, political point-scoring, little else, and not an answer to the question of where enough money will come from to support a population getting older whilst wanting to retire at the same age with the same benefits. It's the same argument for every underfunded school, library, hospital, pot holed road, cold pensioner and struggling single mum.

I don't like it any more than anyone else but some people need to grow up, get responsible, apply some thought to the issue and take a view that is good for the country and all of us long-term rather than throwing their f****ing toys out of the pram or trying to gain short term political favour.

Trust me, the alternative, if you think about it, is very scary indeed.

TheStone

The public sector seem to think they're being hard done by.

It's true to say that they didn't cause any of the problems (banking and debt), but the public sector was expanded considerably on the back of the very same bubble. When the bubble burst, those things funded by it have to reduce too. The pensions were even more unaccounted money on top of that.

We can only have what we can afford. The only other option is to steal even more from our children. We can have all the services, pensions and standard of living that we haven't produced enough to afford and our kids can pay for it later, whilst having none of that for themselves.

pliptrot

The UK deficit is less than that of most European countries, who still manage to offer better health care and pesniosn to their people. As to the start of the thread - and much that follows - how about thinking back, and what would your reaction be to, " you stole bread to feed your starving children, and you know the rules. So off to Australia forever. Deal with it."? It's civil disobedience that has distanced us from this, and the rich and powerful - who are f^&king you over and stealing (amongst other things) your pensions, by the way - must be delighted that so many of those who have contributed to this thread are complicit in the race back to the bottom. Any society should be judged on how fair and equal it is. The Uk does not do well here. And the turkeys are voting for Christmas.