dry or wet chain lube

shindig

deadkenny wrote:

Still makes me think of cider.

That's a sign of a misspent youth. Lots of fun though.

cooldad

Kowalski675 wrote:

mjs1231 wrote:

So to recap, all the nonsense about oils, wet or dry lubes are completely pointless. and nothing but a mis understanding of how chains function, and some marketing magic.

WALOB.

Painful as it is for me to agree with the lolkid, this ^^^^^^^^^^^^

The WALOB bit I mean.

poah

Northwind wrote:

Wet lube and dry lube are both a bit condition-specific... Squirt frinstance is nigh godly in summer, White Lightning wet is fantastic in proper full on mud.

If you want one for all conditions, try White Lighting Epic Ride- lasts for longer in bad conditions than most dry lubes, doesn't gather dirt like a wet lube. Not quite as good in either but decent in both.

This is what wet lube's for:

:shock:

Kowalski675

cooldad wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

mjs1231 wrote:

So to recap, all the nonsense about oils, wet or dry lubes are completely pointless. and nothing but a mis understanding of how chains function, and some marketing magic.

WALOB.

Painful as it is for me to agree with the lolkid, this ^^^^^^^^^^^^

The WALOB bit I mean.

Only a kid compared to an old sod like you.

Northwind

mjs1231 wrote:

After hundreds of hours of research I have come up with

THE WORST POST IN BIKERADAR HISTORY.

omegas

mjs1231 wrote:

3.
Run this chain until it starts to grind, then replace it. This usually is 300 to 700 miles of NORMAL riding.

looks like I should be fitting a new chain every 2 weeks.

Northwind

Ah, since this is an ancient thread, I see I was supposed to post back about the Putoline melt-in wax. Basically, it is the absolute business, I don't see me using anything else again.

Downsides- incredibly epic faff to apply. Increased risk of setting self on fire. Need to deep-clean chain before reapplying IMO, I don't top up, I just start from scratch (any muck on the chain will either end up sealed in wax, or in the tin waiting to go back on some other time). Does sometimes allow a little rust to form (on my commuter I sometimes spray a little light lube over the top for rustproofing). Looks manky.

Upsides- works in all conditions I've tried it- french summer dust, kinlochleven under water, innerleithen winter enduro swamp, pentlands bottomless filth. Road salt's where it's worst but it's still alright, just see above about rust. Lasts well- in really bad conditions, I might redo it after a couple of rides but here I'm talking about conditions where I'd expect to have issues before the end of a single ride, with other lubes I've used. I've literally never had a dirty drivetrain problem except where I've neglected it for some time.

So yeah. YMMV as ever but it is that good.

Kowalski675

blister pus wrote:

Northwind wrote:

Ah, fair dos actually, I've got a can of Putoline wax in the garage to try and folk who've used it say it's pretty amazing,if it lives up to the hype then it'd probably be good for that. Going to stick it on the road bike first but interested to see how it works out. (got to melt it first!)

Do a post when you do that Northwind, be interesting to see the results, I've seen mixed reaction around and about. Even from motorcyclists. I was thinking of Wurth Dry Chain Lube. Which, if you follow the instructions (for motorbikes) on a brand new mountain bike chain and can repeat for the first few re-applications, gets you to a chain that you just wipe down / dry after a shitfest. A light spray as and when needed after. It's odd, and you can see why it works as it should with the heat generated from a motorbike, but I find it works cold (proviso above) and works out pretty economical.

Just noticed that, while skimming the older posts in the thread. Bicycle chain lubes and motorcycle chain lubes are meant for different jobs. Motorcycle chains are sealed by O/X rings, with internal lubricant. Motorcycle spray lubes (of which Profi Dry is the undisputed daddy) are just there to reduce friction (and therefore heat) between the chain rollers and sprockets. They increase chain life (and add minute amounts of bhp) and you'd be stupid not to use them, but an un-lubed O/X ring chain won't seize up like a dry bicycle chain will (as long as it's kept clean, and correctly tensioned). Modern motorcycle lubes aren't what you want on a bicycle chain, as they're not designed to penetrate the links, only to lubricate the roller surfaces. That doesn't stop idiots persisting in doing stupid things like using gear oil for chain lube, because that's what grandad did on his Triton though...

Northwind

The Putoline wax is only for non-oring chains incidentally, as still used on some dirt bikes.

My motorbike chain was always done with used engine oil thinned with paraffin, because I'm too tight to buy scottoil

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

The Putoline wax is only for non-oring chains incidentally, as still used on some dirt bikes.

My motorbike chain was always done with used engine oil thinned with paraffin, because I'm too tight to buy scottoil

If you're talking about the old skool boil on the cooker and make the house smell foul for weeks Putoline wax then yes, that works for non O ring chains, as that's what it's designed for - to penetrate the links of unsealed roller chains (which Is also why it's thankfully been consigned to the history books, lol, since road bikes all use sealed chains). As you say though, dirtbikes (and often race bikes) still largely use standard roller chains for minimum friction losses. Thinned engine oil is utterly useless as a lube for O/X ring chains. By the end of the street it will virtually all be on your rear wheel, with the little that's left on the chain attracting dirt to make a lovely grinding paste...

Scotoilers are awful. A really expensive and ugly way of covering the back of your bike in shite...

Northwind

Yup, exactly that stuff- works superbly for pushbikes. It's almost odourless now though- just smells a little bit like a tea light.

Scottoilers are great, a little bit of mess (and it's just a little bit unless you turn it up too high) is a price worth paying for the increase in chain life and reduction in faff, unless you're a weekend warrior anyway in which case by all means, polish away

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

Yup, exactly that stuff- works superbly for pushbikes. It's almost odourless now though- just smells a little bit like a tea light.

It used to be foul stuff, lol.

Scottoilers are great, a little bit of mess (and it's just a little bit unless you turn it up too high) is a price worth paying for the increase in chain life and reduction in faff, unless you're a weekend warrior anyway in which case by all means, polish away

We'll have to agree to disagree then, lol. I think they're awful, ugly, pointless things. Even correctly adjusted ones splatter the bike with crap, and the light oil they deliver isn't what modern chains need anyway (for reasons already discussed). I don't believe that they extend chain life beyond that of a properly maintained, conventionally lubed chain (and if you're too lazy to do that then you should be buying a shaft drive anyway), and the wet oil attracts dirt to make a nice chain & sprocket destroying grinding paste. They're ridiculously expensive (and not cost effective, given their price v dubious benefits) and as for faff, they're a whole lot more hassle than conventional lube. You have to fit them, mess around adjusting them, refill them, do a lot more cleaning etc. It only takes a minute to stick the bike on a paddock stand and lube it with a proper dry spray lube that does a much better job than the light oil of a Scotoiler, stays on the chain and doesn't cover your chain and bike in filth. Awful devices.

shindig

Kowalski675 wrote:

Northwind wrote:

Yup, exactly that stuff- works superbly for pushbikes. It's almost odourless now though- just smells a little bit like a tea light.

It used to be foul stuff, lol.

Scottoilers are great, a little bit of mess (and it's just a little bit unless you turn it up too high) is a price worth paying for the increase in chain life and reduction in faff, unless you're a weekend warrior anyway in which case by all means, polish away

We'll have to agree to disagree then, lol. I think they're awful, ugly, pointless things. Even correctly adjusted ones splatter the bike with crap, and the light oil they deliver isn't what modern chains need anyway (for reasons already discussed). I don't believe that they extend chain life beyond that of a properly maintained, conventionally lubed chain (and if you're too lazy to do that then you should be buying a shaft drive anyway), and the wet oil attracts dirt to make a nice chain & sprocket destroying grinding paste. They're ridiculously expensive (and not cost effective, given their price v dubious benefits) and as for faff, they're a whole lot more hassle than conventional lube. You have to fit them, mess around adjusting them, refill them, do a lot more cleaning etc. It only takes a minute to stick the bike on a paddock stand and lube it with a proper dry spray lube that does a much better job than the light oil of a Scotoiler, stays on the chain and doesn't cover your chain and bike in filth. Awful devices.

I'm with you on this one Kowalski. Scott oilers are messy and not really suited to moderen o-ring chains. Sticking the bike on a paddock stand and using modern spray on lube works best. As long as you don't wipe the chain and trap your fingers between the chain and sprocket. My mate did this and chopped off the points of his fingers.

Kowalski675

shindig wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

I'm with you on this one Kowalski. Scott oilers are messy and not really suited to moderen o-ring chains. Sticking the bike on a paddock stand and using modern spray on lube works best. As long as you don't wipe the chain and trap your fingers between the chain and sprocket. My mate did this and chopped off the points of his fingers.

When I used to work for HSBC there was a young lad there with a CB500. He was off for a few days, then reappeared with a heavily bandaged thumb. I asked what he'd done and he told me that he'd been putting the bike on its centre stand, caught his hand between chain and sprocket and cut the end off. Apparently he lost a couple of pints of blood. Obviously it wasn't a clean cut, so they couldn't save the end of the thumb, which now finished just above the knuckle. To this day I jave no idea how the f**k he managed to do it. He didn't seem that impressed when I burst out laughing on hearing his tale of what had happened...

I've heard people say that they clean or lube their chain with the engine running and bike in first gear. F*****g idiots - Darwinism in action, lol...

Chunkers1980

FFS.

gt-arrowhead

Chunkers1980 wrote:

FFS.

Kowalski675

Chunkers1980 wrote:

FFS.

ODFO.

Northwind

Kowalski675 wrote:

the light oil they deliver isn't what modern chains need anyway (for reasons already discussed). <snip> the wet oil attracts dirt to make a nice chain & sprocket destroying grinding paste.

Why don't you think light oil is suitable? :? It lubricates effectively- it'd not be suitable if you're applying by hand as it doesn't last, but then that's the point of a scottoiler, constant replacement. And it doesn't make a grinding paste at all in my experience, the opposite in fact, it's essentially self-cleaning- as oil flings off it carries away dirt, salt etc.

I really liked the profi dry lube but it needed to be reapplied after every wet ride after the roads were salted to stop the chain rusting, which is to say, almost every bloomin ride for 4 months a year. That got old.

I know a guy who lost most of a finger to a chain cleaning ****-up, doing the first gear thing. Best bit is he was born with a vestigal extra fingery thing on his pinky, so on average he still has the right amount of fingers, that takes some explaining.

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

Why don't you think light oil is suitable? :? It lubricates effectively- it'd not be suitable if you're applying by hand as it doesn't last, but then that's the point of a scottoiler, constant replacement. And it doesn't make a grinding paste at all in my experience, the opposite in fact, it's essentially self-cleaning- as oil flings off it carries away dirt, salt etc.

You said it yourself - it just flings off (and the little that stays on attracts dirt to make the aforementioned grinding paste). Light, oily lubes are fine for bicycle chains, as they penetrate the links and the chain only rotates slowly anyway. A sealed chain just needs the roller surfaces lubricating, which is done far better by a PTFE based dry lube that stays on, doesn't attract dirt, and is invisible, so doesn't make your chain look like something from a tractor or Scrapheap Challenge. Correctly lubricated chain, thankfully devoid of evil Scotoiler:

I really liked the profi dry lube but it needed to be reapplied after every wet ride after the roads were salted to stop the chain rusting, which is to say, almost every bloomin ride for 4 months a year. That got old.

If you're daft enough to be riding through winter on salted roads then it doesn't really matter if your chain rusts, since the whole bike will be a hideous, rusted piece of shite by the time spring comes round anyway, lol...

I know a guy who lost most of a finger to a chain cleaning ****-up, doing the first gear thing. Best bit is he was born with a vestigal extra fingery thing on his pinky, so on average he still has the right amount of fingers, that takes some explaining.

Daft sod should've cut off the extra bit...

Northwind

Kowalski675 wrote:

You said it yourself - it just flings off (and the little that stays on attracts dirt to make the aforementioned grinding paste

Nope and nope- it's constantly replaced which takes care of both points.

But it is horses for courses, if you've got a pampered sportsbike then hand applied lubrication is ideal, or alternatively just use Mr Sheen Your bike's clearly never been ridden!

But for bikes that need to work a little, or be used in less than perfect conditions, scottoilers are mint- ask Nick Sanders, he reckons a scottoiler'd chain lasts 6 times as long as a manually lubed chain and I reckon he'd know. Bikes are too good to save for dry days. (mine lasted about twice as long).

I remember being surprised that endurance race teams use scottoilers.

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

Kowalski675 wrote:

You said it yourself - it just flings off (and the little that stays on attracts dirt to make the aforementioned grinding paste

Nope and nope- it's constantly replaced which takes care of both points.

So why not avoid all the expense, fannying about, filth and inconvenience, and just use something that stays on the chain, lol...

But it is horses for courses, if you've got a pampered sportsbike then hand applied lubrication is ideal, or alternatively just use Mr Sheen Your bike's clearly never been ridden!

:roll: It's been ridden harder than most, thanks. My bikes get pampered in the garage and ridden hard when they come out (and I've got the broken pieces littering the garage to show for it, lol). They're toys, to be spanked hard when the sky's blue, the sun's shining and the tarmac's warm and dry. I have a cheap car, why on earth would I want to ride a bike in bad weather or winter? I'd rather sandpaper my ass cheeks and sit in a bucket of salt. It always makes me laugh hearing people bang on about how they're proper bikers, just 'cos they're daft enough to suffer riding through winter on some rusted pile of s**t. Funny how they're so rarely able to keep up with the "weekend warriors" when the weather's nice enough to make bringing a bike out a pleasure, rather than a torture... And no, I don't have a sportsbike - they're for gaylords, aren't they?

ask Nick Sanders,

God, I'd rather not. have you ever spoken to him, or tried to read any of his godawful dirge? Christ, what a boring b*****d. I went round the world in X number of days on a stupidly inappropriate bike and set a record that's only a record because nobody else thought of doing the same stupid, pointless thing. Well done nick, what did you see? Oh, you saw nothing 'cos you were too busy setting your record to have time to stop and look at anything? Well done, lol...

Northwind

He is a fanny, to be fair, but he knows a bit about riding pointlessly long distances. Last one I paid attention to was when he rode 3/4s of the way round, called his mum for more money, rode a little bit further then stopped early because he had to get his book about riding round the world out. Despite not actually riding around the world!

Kowalski675 wrote:

So why not avoid all the expense, fannying about, filth and inconvenience, and just use something that stays on the chain, lol...

That whole "reapplying after every ride" thing again. Some peope are masochists about year-round riding and seem to enjoy misery, but with the right kit, it can be just as good as summer riding. Why do it? For the 15 minute commute instead of 60 in the car, or for the crossed up wheelie that blows away hours of stress. The fact you're not the target market for a scottoiler doesn't mean it's not good, any more than profi being too shortlived for me made it not good.

Kowalski675

Northwind wrote:

He is a fanny, to be fair, but he knows a bit about riding pointlessly long distances. Last one I paid attention to was when he rode 3/4s of the way round, called his mum for more money, rode a little bit further then stopped early because he had to get his book about riding round the world out. Despite not actually riding around the world!

I think he's a prize bellend, tbh.

For the 15 minute commute instead of 60 in the car

I'd take 60 minutes in the car sat on comfy half leather seats with climate control and radio or CD player on, rather than 15 minutes of hell on a bike, any day of the week, lol. People never look at the real journey times either - they never include all the time getting gear on, moving the car, undoing all the locks, dragging the bike out, moving the car back, getting changed again at the other end, then doing it all in reverse when you go home. My last job (coincidentally at head office of a well known motorcycle clothing & accessories retailer) was a 15ish mile commute (split roughly 50/50 between urban and national limit rural). For my journey, at the times I commuted, it was quicker, far less hassle and just a lot more comfortable by car than by bike. Occasionally in summer I'd go by bike if I could be bothered, and had got up early enough to allow the extra time, but not often. I was home for around 4.35 anyway, so if I wanted a play on a bike I could just get one out when I got home.

bennett_346

Kowalski675 wrote:

I'd take 60 minutes in the car sat on comfy half leather seats with climate control and radio or CD player on, rather than 15 minutes of hell on a bike, any day of the week, lol. People never look at the real journey times either - they never include all the time getting gear on, moving the car, undoing all the locks, dragging the bike out, moving the car back, getting changed again at the other end, then doing it all in reverse when you go home. My last job (coincidentally at head office of a well known motorcycle clothing & accessories retailer) was a 15ish mile commute (split roughly 50/50 between urban and national limit rural). For my journey, at the times I commuted, it was quicker, far less hassle and just a lot more comfortable by car than by bike. Occasionally in summer I'd go by bike if I could be bothered, and had got up early enough to allow the extra time, but not often. I was home for around 4.35 anyway, so if I wanted a play on a bike I could just get one out when I got home.

I agree with this. I see so many self righteous bikers over-exaggerating the benefits of being able to filter on the way to work. Let's be honest, apart from filtering bikes aren't any faster than a car for commuting, you just get colder, wetter and more bored wishing you were on an empty road somewhere you could use the vehicle for it's intended purpose then turn up at work damp, smelly and with your shirt and trousers creased to buggery looking like a general scruff. Either that or you spend time getting washed and clothed once you're at work, looking at the warm dry car drivers with a smile on their face having listened to their favorite CD or radio station.

Bikes may be more fun for the weekend or an hour after work when it's dry and sunny and you're on good roads, but god forbid i'm ever forced to ride one to the workplace.

drlodge

Back to the original post...I've tried Finish Line Dry, Finish Line Ceramic Wet and now ProGold ProLink

Finish Line Dry: Keeps the chain cleaner for longer, but needs to be reapplied every other ride at least. Easy to clean the chain with a rag. Doesn't last long on a wet ride, probably not even the length of the ride and you can hear things starting to grind. Great for summer use, not so good for winter/wet use.

Finish Line Ceramic Wet: Keeps the chain lubricated for longer, but soon goes black and tends to attract more muck. Harder to clean the chain with a rag, needs a deep clean sooner.

ProGold ProLink: Best of both worlds. Its a "wet" lube, quite runny but dries off once applied. Keeps the chain clean, but lasts longer than dry lube. Easy to clean the chain wth a rag (moistened with WD40 or GT85), reapply using a dropper bottle which tends to self clean the chain to some extent. Now this is all I use.

My Campag 11 speed chain has done about 3,000 miles using Finish Line Dry then moving the ProGold. It gets cleaned with a rag and re-lubed regularly, and deep cleaned every 500-1500 miles depending on conditions. Bought a big bottle of ProGold for about £16 which I reckon will last me about 10 years!

Chunkers1980

The original post was 18 months ago.

PS - no one cares about your Campag

cooldad

Chunkers1980 wrote:

The original post was 18 months ago.

PS - no one cares about your Campag

Don't be rude. He's probably lost and needs your love.

Northwind

bennett_346 wrote:

Let's be honest, apart from filtering bikes aren't any faster than a car for commuting, you just get colder, wetter and more bored wishing you were on an empty road somewhere you could use the vehicle for it's intended purpose then turn up at work damp, smelly and with your shirt and trousers creased to buggery looking like a general scruff. Either that or you spend time getting washed and clothed once you're at work, looking at the warm dry car drivers with a smile on their face having listened to their favorite CD or radio station.

None of this is my experience at all tbh- maybe if you've got bad gear but I stayed dry and warm, not wet, not smelly, and not scruffy. (in fact on a wet day I arrived in the office bone dry in my goretex and plastic spacesuit while everyone else got soaked walking from the car park ) It took just a couple of minutes to get changed at each end.

I drive to work now because my commute's so different but on my old one I just wouldn't dream of it.

Daz555

Northwind wrote:

Yup, exactly that stuff- works superbly for pushbikes. It's almost odourless now though- just smells a little bit like a tea light.

Scottoilers are great, a little bit of mess (and it's just a little bit unless you turn it up too high) is a price worth paying for the increase in chain life and reduction in faff, unless you're a weekend warrior anyway in which case by all means, polish away

I tried Scotoiler on my last chain drive bike but with or without, my all year riding (400-500 miles per week and a lot of motorway) was eating chains and sprockets too often for my liking. Yes it only takes 10 mins to stick the bike up and clean/lube the chain but when your chain ends up bone dry after 80 miles of motorway in the pouring rain - sometimes every single day for a fortnight, the hassle gets too much to bother.

My current bike is shaft driven. Lovely.

I'd never buy a chain driven bike again - shaft or belt from now on.

chrisrobs

"Chain Management" WTF are you on about?

Just ride your bike, wipe it with a wet rag after each ride to clear most of the crap of it and re oil with a half decent lube like muc off, not wd40 or gt85.

Degrease when you see fit.