What should I work on?

JimboPlob

weight: 68kg
5 min power: 360 watts
20 min power (300 watts last checked about 2 months ago, reckon its more like 310 now)
1 hour power: 280 watts

I did a crit recently, I noticed that I was moving up the pack on the flats/corners/descents, but there was a small kick and I consistently lost places here...

I have only just started doing 5 min intervals, but have never done anything less than this.

Is it just a case of doing some 1-2 min efforts (presumably up steep hills), to increase my 1-2 min power (which is pretty shocking)

The below is the only data I have from harder rides etc... i.e. not specifically tested..
1 min: 430 watts
2 min: 420 watts
5 sec: 720 watts

ric/rstsport

skills. skills. skills.
i've ridden loads of E/1/2/3, E/1/2 and 1/2 crits with pretty much those stats and found myself in the leading group. admittedly little old ladies and dead people can outsprint me, but often find myself in the leading group.

amaferanga

First thing you need to do is go do some tests for the shorter durations. I didn't specifically test 1min, 2min or 5min power until the end of last year. When I did I found that I could do significantly more than I ever managed during races.

If the 5sec, 1, 2 and 5min power's are your bests then you could do some intervals to improve them. But what you need for crits and road racing is the ability to do repeated sub-maximal efforts and recover quickly. So I'd be looking at doing intervals a bit below your best for the given duration, but many of them and with not too long a recovery time. And I would be looking for a gentle slope as opposed to a steep hill where you might end of grinding.

cyco2

JimboPlob wrote:

but there was a small kick and I consistently lost places here...

You do have pretty good ability so work on the bit you're weak at. In other words train to do a lot of 'kicking'. You may not have noticed the gear changes taking place with the biggest kickers so experiment with that aspect of kicking to get the best effect. Also, what were you thinking of doing when all the others were having a 'small kick' ?

JimboPlob

by small kick I mean short sharp incline, followed by a more gradual incline. I found I lost places on the short sharp incline and then didnt really gain anything back on the more gradual slope. I would then take back the places again on the rest of the course, only for the same thing to happen next time round...

cyco2

The most obvious conclusion is that you're not race fit. To keep up with a group that's 'kicking off' can be quite painful. The ones that are doing it are trying to drop the weaker ones who can just hang on. That's you. So, try and replicate that effort. It may be that you're not using enough cadence which aids acceleration.

JimboPlob

I think I already got that "im not race fit", which is why I am asking what I should work on really.

I basically want to understand what I should do in training....

okgo

I would think you could benefit from upping that 5 second power, not sure about the other figures for someone of your size, I think something important is being able to jump and get in that group or move etc. The other figures don't look too bad at all, and 300/310 for an hour at that weight puts you in a good place.

But what you need in a crit sometimes is to be able to sprint and get in a move, or just to create the gap (with your ftp you should be able to stay in a group if you make the bridge?) I'm lucky being bigger (my 5 sec is likely over double yours for instance, I only tried it once with a powertap) that getting that power down to make a move or join one is quite natural for me, and I think its so important to have that for the uk racing I've seen.

ric/rstsport

there are elite males in the pro tour with 5-sec powers that 'small'. again, while, yes the OP can/should do something about increasing his powers across the spectrum, he should also be working on skills.

ric

jibberjim

Cyclopark? Or somewhere else - your numbers are more than good enough to do stuff in 4th cat racing in the south east - you will do better at the handicaps or at Hog hill (which are less dependant on sitting in and sprinting) I'm afraid you cannot possibly tell what your power profile tells you against the other riders that they're getting away from you up a short sharp ramp. It could be that no-one is else trying the rest of the time as that's the only selective part of the course, so you're able to move up because people don't care.

You often don't need a sprint to get in a move - people are let go, and it's unlikely that you'll really be able to change it sufficiently to make a difference. the short term durations are much less trainable. 10w/kg is pretty poor - wiggins probably doesn't have that much more though. I'm with Ric what you need is skills, race experience and start getting in breaks 4 w/kg with an aero position should have you happy in a break - go try and get in one and stop worrying about where you move up or down the bunch, it's irrelevant get out of the bunch. You'll be stunningly lucky to win a mass sprint, and if you do it won't be after sitting it it will be after a very tough race.

*okgo* your jump and 1 and 5 minutes are all very good, yet you can still get dropped by Phil or Andy on the training ride on occasion - both of those have sprint numbers in the similar ball park to jimboplob.

ric/rstsport

jibberjim wrote:

Cyclopark? Or somewhere else - your numbers are more than good enough to do stuff in 4th cat racing in the south east -

just to clarify, i've ridden more races in the SE than i care to remember ;-) and i can't think of a crit (off the top of my head) where my NP has been greater than 230 W with a mass of 68 - 70 kg. and those had elites in...

i've data from Tour de France stages where people average less than 100 W in the leading group (on flat stages).

amaferanga

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Cyclopark? Or somewhere else - your numbers are more than good enough to do stuff in 4th cat racing in the south east -

just to clarify, i've ridden more races in the SE than i care to remember ;-) and i can't think of a crit (off the top of my head) where my NP has been greater than 230 W with a mass of 68 - 70 kg. and those had elites in...

i've data from Tour de France stages where people average less than 100 W in the leading group (on flat stages).

Do you really mean 230W or is that a typo? I just can't get my head around how 230W NP would ever be enough even in a 3rd/4th Cat race.

ric/rstsport

yup. 230 W NP. 200 W AP. that's an E/1/2 race one, which included the likes of Roger Hammond and Rob Hayles.

And, yes, i've checked the calibration of my PT
and, yes, i've been in the race and afterwards checked friends power readings who have recorded significantly higher powers.

Just checked a northern crit race ;-). 44 km/hr, 206 W AP and 236 W NP (finished in lead group) (1/2/3 race)

Just checked a Welsh crit. 42 km/hr, 205 W AP and 238 W NP (lead group) (1/2 race)

Like i said, you can get through flat stages in the Tour at <100 W...

phreak

I know it's turbo readouts and all, but on my Tacx Flow I do 260watts for an hour, which equates to around 39km/hr on my regular bike computer, so with drafting and that I dare say those figures could be right.

amaferanga

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

yup. 230 W NP. 200 W AP. that's an E/1/2 race one, which included the likes of Roger Hammond and Rob Hayles.

And, yes, i've checked the calibration of my PT
and, yes, i've been in the race and afterwards checked friends power readings who have recorded significantly higher powers.

Just checked a northern crit race ;-). 44 km/hr, 206 W AP and 236 W NP (finished in lead group) (1/2/3 race)

Just checked a Welsh crit. 42 km/hr, 205 W AP and 238 W NP (lead group) (1/2 race)

Like i said, you can get through flat stages in the Tour at <100 W...

I'm genuinely surprised by that. I sure didn't ride a good race on Sat (it actually felt a bit weird - like I was in a bit of a daze throughout), but on a flat motor circuit I got nothing from 277W AP, 301W NP. Now riding smarter and had it not been so windy I'm sure I could have finished where I did with much lower AP and NP, but I can't see how I'd have even been able to stick with the main bunch on 200W.

I guess one question for you then Rick: why didn't you win those races?

amaferanga

phreak wrote:

I know it's turbo readouts and all, but on my Tacx Flow I do 260watts for an hour, which equates to around 39km/hr on my regular bike computer, so with drafting and that I dare say those figures could be right.

By coincidence I suspect.

ric/rstsport

amaferanga wrote:

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

yup. 230 W NP. 200 W AP. that's an E/1/2 race one, which included the likes of Roger Hammond and Rob Hayles.

And, yes, i've checked the calibration of my PT
and, yes, i've been in the race and afterwards checked friends power readings who have recorded significantly higher powers.

Just checked a northern crit race ;-). 44 km/hr, 206 W AP and 236 W NP (finished in lead group) (1/2/3 race)

Just checked a Welsh crit. 42 km/hr, 205 W AP and 238 W NP (lead group) (1/2 race)

Like i said, you can get through flat stages in the Tour at <100 W...

I'm genuinely surprised by that. I sure didn't ride a good race on Sat (it actually felt a bit weird - like I was in a bit of a daze throughout), but on a flat motor circuit I got nothing from 277W AP, 301W NP. Now riding smarter and had it not been so windy I'm sure I could have finished where I did with much lower AP and NP, but I can't see how I'd have even been able to stick with the main bunch on 200W.

I guess one question for you then Rick: why didn't you win those races?

Ric, not Rick!

Which motor race circuit (if you don't mind me asking)?

One race (1/2/3) at Llandow (motor circuit in south Wales) i averaged similar to above efforts of mine, and with about 8 km left to race found myself in the 3rd group on the road (i'd been daydreaming and wasn't watching what was happening). So, crossing the start/finish i attacked alone and within 2 laps joined the leading group. However, when it came down to the sprint i was 7th of 7 riders. Why don't i win those races? Because my peak (5-sec) power is 1) far too low (~842 W) and 2) i prefer going uphill rather than doing an elbow to elbow sprint.

The only time i've won a bunch sprint (2nd place overall) was when the race finished up a ~1.5 km long climb and i rode everyone off my wheel (while laughing myself into hysterics that i'd won a bunch sprint).

phreak

According to this

http://bikecalculator.com/

260 watts equates to around about 35km/hr

amaferanga

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Ric, not Rick!

Which motor race circuit (if you don't mind me asking)?

One race (1/2/3) at Llandow (motor circuit in south Wales) i averaged similar to above efforts of mine, and with about 8 km left to race found myself in the 3rd group on the road (i'd been daydreaming and wasn't watching what was happening). So, crossing the start/finish i attacked alone and within 2 laps joined the leading group. However, when it came down to the sprint i was 7th of 7 riders. Why don't i win those races? Because my peak (5-sec) power is 1) far too low (~842 W) and 2) i prefer going uphill rather than doing an elbow to elbow sprint.

The only time i've won a bunch sprint (2nd place overall) was when the race finished up a ~1.5 km long climb and i rode everyone off my wheel (while laughing myself into hysterics that i'd won a bunch sprint).

Sorry, Ric :oops:

It was Tockwith. Pretty exposed to the wind which obviously makes every race that little bit harder.

Think I need to start riding a LOT smarter by the sounds of those numbers.

ric/rstsport

dont know tockwith. but i found a file from mallory which had an NP of 255 W (but my wheel broke early on in race and rubbed on my brake blocks all the way round). which i guess makes a difference, but not sure how much