Sportive Safety

KentPuncheur

brettjmcc wrote:

As back to the another point on hills, whilst not quite sportives, other organised rides get on my wick. People who go out and ride, which is fair enough... but don't go 3 or 4 abreast on a hill gently riding up chatting to your mates!

Agreed, if you're able to chat on a climb 3/4 abreast then you're not pushing hard enough!! Hills are for head down, face gurning, suffer-fests, not social occassions!

TKF

Ron Stuart wrote:

TKF wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

Nothing about watching wheels, what happens to the bike in front when the rider gets out of the saddle, if you have to single-out because of a vehicle do you go in front of the neighbouring bike, etc, etc.

I have no idea what to do in those circumstances.

So where would I find advice about riding in a Sportive?

Sounds like you are exactly the person I have in mind...

Regards advice to ride a sportive, one poster gave this link http://www.greatwestonride.com/page13.htm

I now know how to breath properly(!) but your link doesn't really answer the three specific points you raised in the OP.

Ron Stuart

Sorry TKF but that was just a few examples to illustrate my point, it would be incomplete to answer just a few of the things to watch out for when riding in a group and this forum doesn't function as the ideal place to highlight them all. Rather I would like some thought put into the wording/examples, collated then published by British Cycling who as yet haven't responded to my contact. Wiggle/Kilotogo are probably the biggest in Sportives at the current moment with lots of events run by them and in the feature information for their events they say "Run under British Cycling guidelines" well it seems to me that if BC guidelines we to include relevant Ride Safety info that would hopefully give the likes of yourself the best input.

knownothingbozo

You lot have scared the bibs off me. I'm doing my first sportive in a couple of weeks. I like riding at a steady pace in a straightline, but practice doing this almost entirely on my own.
I now expect to die. Wish me luck in the after life.

Ron Stuart

knownothingbozo wrote:

You lot have scared the bibs off me. I'm doing my first sportive in a couple of weeks. I like riding at a steady pace in a straightline, but practice doing this almost entirely on my own.
I now expect to die. Wish me luck in the after life.

If scaring you can help keep you safe then I make no apologies. Would you expect to be let loose in a car on busy roads if all you had done was to learn how to control the vehicle going around a farmer's field?
On a more helpful tack I shall be chasing up British Cycling this coming week who have so far acknowledged my contact but have failed to get back to me which is more than a bit naff as I am a member as well.

Here is a couple of tips to wet the appetite.
Verbal: If you are on the front of a group and there is an approaching obstruction and it means moving out to pass then a call 'on your left' and a hand signal behind the back as to the direction you are going to move is good etiquette in a group.
Verbal: call "pot hole" and point to which side of the pot hole you will ride to avoid the hole.

If you are behind a bike try not to "half wheel" that is overlapping with your front wheel the rear wheel of the bike ahead. This is because if someone doesn't for instance call out and/or do either for instance of the two above and just move out or in they can hit your front wheel with their rear wheel and you could be down and taking others out too.

Another one mentioned on one of my posts above is unannounced slowing or stopping with bikes behind, you may come across someone on a bike in front say "easy" or "slowing" or "stopping". As we have no brake lights this is a good alternative.

If I can't get anywhere with British Cycling and as we are now well into the sportive season I shall have a go here at listing more, not the Ideal way to spread the word but better than is now the case.
If it is possible to ride with some experienced riders do so and ask the riders some questions, a few tips before you set of would be a wise move. Then armed with this knowledge and experience taking on a sportive will be fun to anticipate.


One more for luck:- If you are on the front on a smallish road and a vehicle is approaching from ahead then call out "car down" or if your on the rear of a group and a vehicle is approaching from behind then then call "car up". Added to the is maybe a call "single out" that means if you are riding in two abreast fashion then the outside rider each time should fall back behind the inside rider. Note: the inside riders with the exception of the first should slow at little to allow the outside rider in front to 'slot-in' . Apart from overtaking a slow rider or group there should be no three or more abreast, even this Manoeuvre should only be undertaken if it is obviously clear to do so.

Le Commentateur

It's all very well writing this stuff down, but practice makes perfect and I would suggest people join a local cycling club and do some club rides, then they'll soon get the hang of it. It's not actually that hard and mostly common sense.

kev77

I too would recommend joining your local chain gang, cycling club etc etc or go out with them for the day if you can at least just to pick up some road etiquette.

I was completely oblivious to group road riding technique until i joined my local club, best thing i ever did. I can ride in the middle of a group now no probs and be safe

TKF

kev77 wrote:

I too would recommend joining your local chain gang, cycling club etc etc or go out with them for the day if you can at least just to pick up some road etiquette.

I was completely oblivious to group road riding technique until i joined my local club, best thing i ever did. I can ride in the middle of a group now no probs and be safe

I did ride with a club but they were a decidedly anti-motorist bunch and nobody needs to learn that sort of etiquette. I do intend on trying another club in the area but time constraints mean I won't be able to before L2B.

Ron Stuart wrote:

Note: the inside riders with the exception of the first should slow at little to allow the outside rider in front to 'slot-in'

That's the sort of advice I'd welcome as it's not obvious to new cyclists. I knew most of the other tips/rules you posted but not that one. And you're right it would be useful for Sportive organisers to have this sort of information on their websites and literature.

Stedman

Things are getting very silly when we have allowed a significant aspect of our sport to develop completely without self regulation and where a significant portion of those taking part have not developed the necessary skills and competence to deal with group riding let alone undertaking this in large groups at high speed.

Whilst British Cycling has developed guidance for organisers of sportives, these are not enforced and for what ever political reason they have kept away from regulating these events and unlike Audax sportive organisers have selectively steered this aspect of our sport away from self-regulation. The success of the Sportive brand is also its weakness in that it has provides an easy means of access to fast group cycling without a process of requiring the necessary competence to safely take part.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, I feel that it is wrong to just focus on the competence of new riders when the route cause of this type of accident is the way that this sport has allowed itself to be developed without control and little impute from the commercial organisers.

Le Commentateur

an easy means of access to fast group cycling without a process of requiring the necessary competence to safely take part

But the same could be said of 4th cat racing. Plenty of crashes there caused by inexperience or overconfidence.

mamba80

Best think to do in a Sportive from the safety angle? start early, get to the front (ish) and ride round with your normal training buddies.
Prob with all these words of wisdom is that most people dont read this forum, arnt interested and think they are the next Cavendish and wouldnt take any form of advice unless it was from said MC
A sportif "should" be a personal challenge and you shouldnt be relying on a "fast" bunch of total strangers to get you your Gold time.

Ron Stuart

mamba80 wrote:

Best think to do in a Sportive from the safety angle? start early, get to the front (ish) and ride round with your normal training buddies.
Prob with all these words of wisdom is that most people dont read this forum, arnt interested and think they are the next Cavendish and wouldnt take any form of advice unless it was from said MC
A sportif "should" be a personal challenge and you shouldnt be relying on a "fast" bunch of total strangers to get you your Gold time.

So the best thing to do is: we all start early? and try and get to the front (ish) Sounds a bit like the first few days in a crash ridden Grand Tour to me.

This thread on this forum wasn't started with the intention that it would be the answer just an area for discussion that might throw up a few good ideas. I am far from relying just on this forum from which I have read some useful replies and some not so helpful but that's no more than should be expected I guess. :?

mamba80

I dont see what you want? imho there isnt any answer to this and tbh there isnt really a problem.
the very few accidents i ve seen have all been at speed ie too quick into a corner and not in a grp.

its all very well saying riders should join a club or should do whatever, but its all unenforceable, the vast majority (of riders) dont join a club, dont know a thing about safe riding or even how to maintain their bikes and neither r they interested - what do you want? rider fines? pre ride tests?

Longer term, any solution to improve rider standards (across all styles of riding) has to come from the next generation (GoRide, Bikeability etc) and unfortunately, even bigger and wealthier clubs dont even support this

If you keep your wits about you, consider that the riders around you are all idiots (in the nicest possible way) then you ll be fine.

So if safe riding is that important to you, then either dont do sportives or get fit enough to avoid having to ride in these "dangerous" grps.

Ron Stuart

mamba80 thank goodness yours isn't the only reply I've had.

Is 80 your year of birth :?:

Stedman

mamba80 wrote:

I dont see what you want? imho there isnt any answer to this and tbh there isnt really a problem.
the very few accidents i ve seen have all been at speed ie too quick into a corner and not in a grp.

"There isnt really a problem"! See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-t ... l-13408414 which reported the following:

Two cyclists were airlifted to hospital after a collision during a cycle race in Highland Perthshire.

The incident on the Tummel Bridge, near Schiehallion on the B846, happened during the Etape Caledonia.

The cyclists, both from Essex, were taken to Ninewells Hospital, one suffering a "significant internal injury".

Tayside Police appealed for witnesses to the crash, at 1040 BST, and a third cyclist involved to contact them.

mamba80

One accident on a closed road sportive indicates that there is a issue in Sportive riding? a bit of a knee jerk reaction isn t it? especially as i doubt you know the details?
I accept there will of course be more - but really its not as if its a common occurance or is it?

At the risk of repeating myself, we all need to (poss via clubs) get involved in Go-Ride, training, coaching, youth racing etc and this longer term strategy is possibly the only way to change attitudes and improve rider behavior and safety.
I ve read through your comments on this, RonS and you do seem to have some ideas of merit but they all really come back to a longer term solution and imho that involves training and changing attitudes as the really issue here is our safety on the roads irrespective of whether its on a Sportive or on a training ride etc etc.

Stedman

mamba80 wrote:

One accident on a closed road sportive indicates that there is a issue in Sportive riding? a bit of a knee jerk reaction isn t it? especially as i doubt you know the details?
I accept there will of course be more - but really its not as if its a common occurance or is it?

At the risk of repeating myself, we all need to (poss via clubs) get involved in Go-Ride, training, coaching, youth racing etc and this longer term strategy is possibly the only way to change attitudes and improve rider behavior and safety.

Mamba,

If you take the standard Birds accident ratio triangle model, it is only a matter of time before the worst type of incident potentially occurs. Unfortunately these are not widely reported within the cycling press and I have seen four incidents where medical attention has been required and I am sure that there have been many more that I am not aware of.

My main concern is that there is no overall governance when it comes to an aspect of our sport as large as this.

PS. I do support you argument about training.

nickwill

I keep reading about all the bad riding on sportives. I've rarely come across it and I've ridden most of the big events in the North of England. The only event where I've seen a lot of inconsiderate riding was on the Dragon ride where group riding skills and attention to the rules of the road were often poor. Bearing in mind the number of people taking part and the narrow roads often used, there are bound to be a few accidents. My guess is that if a race had an equivalent number of participants to one of the larger sportives, you would get more accidents. A very high proportion of cyclists that I see on events seem to be club cyclists . Maybe events like the Fred Whitton or the Etape du Dales attract a different clientele than some of the easier sportives in the less hilly areas. Part of me feels that complaints about riding ability on sportives are yet another way for the more traditionally minded to put down the sportive scene. As regards more central control, I am instinctively against yet more regulation. There is far too much of it in 'real life' and the less it impinges on leisure activities the better!

Ron Stuart

Time to get this back on course again.

I am not advocating regulation please take note. I am advocating education or to put it another way safety advice.

I took part some years ago in a CTC Challenge ride 'The Phil and Friends' where a rider died, he died on a relatively flat section of road near Torside Reservoir, he like Phil Ligget in those days wasn't wearing a helmet, touched a wheel and went down heavily on his head. If you go on to the current CTC webpage for this event it is now called the 'Phil Liggett CTC Challenge Ride and Sportive' and there is a photo of him talking to Malcolm Elliott and Phil now sports a fine cycle helmet.

So how bad does it have to get? or does it have to happen to you before something changes :?:

Nickwill , you are so of the mark mate, I like the concept of the sportive scene but strangely I didn't like being taken out on one event last year by another rider, neither do I like to see or here of others crashing as result of avoidable incidents.

Lastly there is over the last thirty years in our society been a large reduction in the number of people joining clubs or associations across the board in all walks of life. This could be analysed at length but not here or now. Suffice to say that with the sportive boom a lot of new riders are bypassing the traditional club life and riding in an independent manner or maybe with a few friends who also just do a bit of riding and odd event now and again. Nothing wrong with this of course but it's a world away from Mass starts and riding in a group and it is when they step up into the mass events that the inexperience can show.

It's time for the folk who are making a living out of this to step up to the Mark. Not the odd club doing a once in a year job or the local charity doing something but the mainstream organisers with large numbers entering to show their metal and work with British Cycling to help the uneducated ride safer.

nickwill

I do understand what you are saying Ron. The problem is that some clubs are unwelcoming, particularly if you don't want to enter time trials. The golden age of cycling clubs must have been in the same era as that of hiking clubs. I suspect they were welcoming places where people were encouraged to join in and learn. A number of years ago I joined a local club and like many others drifted away. We now meet as an informal group outside a bike shop on a Sunday morning. Sometimes there are three of us, sometimes 12. We are able to accommodate everyone from those who race, through sportive riders, to those who just want to get out for a ride. If a local club existed that met our needs, we would probably be a part of it. There are probably half a dozen different little groups in town who all venture out separately on a Sunday morning. I suspect this is a snapshot of a number of communities. I agree that it is a good thing for people to be part of a club structure, but the club scene has to change to accommodate the cycling population as it now exists. You only need to spend 5 minutes on Bike Radar to pick up on the anti sportive rhetoric. If clubs were prepared to embrace the way cycling has changed and encourage new ideas and aspirations, I think a lot more people would become involved and benefit from the knowledge of the club community. This would be the ideal scenario. I'm sure this is alreadythe case with a lot of more go ahead clubs.

disquieting_museeuws

Nickwill wrote:

I do understand what you are saying Ron. The problem is that some clubs are unwelcoming, particularly if you don't want to enter time trials. The golden age of cycling clubs must have been in the same era as that of hiking clubs. I suspect they were welcoming places where people were encouraged to join in and learn. A number of years ago I joined a local club and like many others drifted away. We now meet as an informal group outside a bike shop on a Sunday morning. Sometimes there are three of us, sometimes 12. We are able to accommodate everyone from those who race, through sportive riders, to those who just want to get out for a ride. If a local club existed that met our needs, we would probably be a part of it. There are probably half a dozen different little groups in town who all venture out separately on a Sunday morning. I suspect this is a snapshot of a number of communities. I agree that it is a good thing for people to be part of a club structure, but the club scene has to change to accommodate the cycling population as it now exists. You only need to spend 5 minutes on Bike Radar to pick up on the anti sportive rhetoric. If clubs were prepared to embrace the way cycling has changed and encourage new ideas and aspirations, I think a lot more people would become involved and benefit from the knowledge of the club community. This would be the ideal scenario. I'm sure this is alreadythe case with a lot of more go ahead clubs.

Sounds like you have a club already, why not make it formal

One general thought I have is that there is probably a generation or two who have grown up not riding to school for whatever reason. By contrast, my Dutch girlfriend was riding in massive school-bound pelotons (and even echelons against crosswinds) every day from an early age - you either learned to ride or ended up on the deck, and it was part of your education. They also got formal cycling proficiency type training at school. It's certainly made her a noticeably good, careful cyclist, and able to adapt to difficult situations on the road. Just my take on it FWIW.

Lookyhere

Ron, you said there should be more education and bemoan the lack of a formal club structure BUT how do you propose to alter it? a few printed instructions on the start sheet wont do it! or do you propose fines/time penalties and disqualifications? what practical changes do you want to see?
Like Mamaba i see the issue is in general road riding and drivers and cyclists attititudes to each other.
We have a very big club down here - Yogi CC - that i used to be part of but there is no structure to their rides and certainly no enforced ride standards.... and no education and that is the reason they r so popular, its basically a big bunch of mates out on the road doing what they like and they dont give a 4x to anyone else, its just a hobby until they get tired of it and move on to something else.
Most people dont seem to want structure, they dont want to be told to do this or that. The trick is to educate riders without them knowing or get them involved in the many training schemes out there, i went along to a local GoRide session and was amazed at a: the lack of publicity and B: how much the coaches cover and teach youngsters
On this forum, we are in the main preaching to the converted.

Ron Stuart

Lookyhere (no pun)have you read all of the posts on this thread in particular mine? because I'm in grave danger of repeating myself, in fact I think I'm already doing it.
I am not here as I said previously to get involved with going into the reasons society has changed, I just am recognising that it has.
On my very last post I said that it is not about regulating riders but informing them on how they can ride collectively in a safer manner.
In my opinion the industry has a responsibility to help educate those that need it into riding safer.
This can be done by various means, press, videos, guidelines (best compiled by BC) and referred to by organisers.
I am again going to try and get British Cycling to respond, trouble is they want all the new membership and endorse a lot of the sportives but don't want the involvement, although they produce a guideline document which has virtually nothing about safety guidance in it.

Ann Cakebread

Stedman has some great ideas. Just leaving the regulation of this branch of cycling sport to commercial, profit-minded organisers is asking for trouble.

Ron Stuart, you offered to provide me with contacts - yes, please!

New Forest residents are not anti-cycling, but our little lanes cannot cope with 1,800 competitors without risk of harm to inhabitants as well as to riders. Some posts consider 300 is large!

We need to learn to work together with mutual courtesy.

Ron Stuart

Ann, I was speaking to an Iain Phillips from British Cycling yesterday regards sportive safety, also I touched on the pressure being put on some areas because of conflict by numbers taking part in the events. Iain has been appointed by BC to cover these issues and try and resolve them.
It would seem the biggest provider of sportive type events in England especially south of the M4 are Wiggle http://www.wiggle.co.uk/events/ there is a contact tab on the webpage also in conjunction with Wiggle there are events run by Kilotogo, my contact at Kiltogo has been a Simon Thomson (contact@kilotogo.com).
I have had a positive response from Jeff Jones of Cycling Plus magazine, who said he would include some safety tips in the future in their sportive articles.
I sent out emails to various organisers and related businesses I included a link to this forum thread and asked for their comments, I got a thumbs up from an Alan Rose from JustRacing, he wanted me compile something, the rest apart from those above have so far ignored my emails.
Hope this helps.

Ann Cakebread

NITR8s: re the woman driving down a single-track hill with cyclists riding up. It would seem almost certain that the cyclists were there for pleasure. It would also seem certain that riding uphill caused them to weave, or at least wobble a bit. What nobody can know is the motorist's reason for using that road. The bleeping (as opposed to blasting) does indicate urgency, as well as a polite warning of her presence. How do you know she was not a mother rushing a child to hospital, or a midwife attending a delivery, or any other urgent matter you can think of? What do you think she should have done? Just sat there hoping the line of cyclists would eventually come to an end? Why do so many (by no means all but obviously including you) believe that only two wheels have a right to the road and that motorists are always wrong? The riders could have put foot to ground and edged out of the way (unthinkable to racers, I know) - that would have been courteous as well as avoiding the accident. The motorist had no means of communication other than bleeping. Could some clever person please devise a code to overcome this problem? Road safety would for ever be in his debt!

Ann Cakebread

Ron Stuart wrote:

Ann, I was speaking to an Iain Phillips from British Cycling yesterday regards sportive safety, also I touched on the pressure being put on some areas because of conflict by numbers taking part in the events. Iain has been appointed by BC to cover these issues and try and resolve them.
It would seem the biggest provider of sportive type events in England especially south of the M4 are Wiggle http://www.wiggle.co.uk/events/ there is a contact tab on the webpage also in conjunction with Wiggle there are events run by Kilotogo, my contact at Kiltogo has been a Simon Thomson (contact@kilotogo.com).
I have had a positive response from Jeff Jones of Cycling Plus magazine, who said he would include some safety tips in the future in their sportive articles.
I sent out emails to various organisers and related businesses I included a link to this forum thread and asked for their comments, I got a thumbs up from an Alan Rose from JustRacing, he wanted me compile something, the rest apart from those above have so far ignored my emails.
Hope this helps.

Thanks very much, Ron. We're following up your helpful contacts. I do agree that profit-making organisers of huge events have a great responsibility for a great many of the safety issues. Please do not think I am against cycling: for many years my bike was my only form of transport (health now forbids). Singling out was drummed into me and any group or pair I was in unfailingly obeyed it, so thanks also for the tips on how to manage this in a fast group. How do organisers enforce their rules? They don't provide large identification numbers, so offenders can't be reported to them.

Correction: Apologies for using the term "by-law" regarding priority for animals in the New Forest. This is local shorthand for their absolute right to precedence within the cattle grids, as the roads count as part of the common land they roam, but is not technically a by-law. Agisters, Verderers, etc., are the authorities in this special place!

Ron Stuart

Ann,
You asked "How do organisers enforce their rules? They don't provide large identification numbers, so offenders can't be reported to them."

The organisers have virtually no rules of their own, the rule of the road (highway code) is their usual reference, although some insist with the use of helmets, although I have seen this flouted. They advise as to the starting and finishing procedure and general advice regards such things as signing on, feed stations, signage etc. We have numbers displayed on the front of the handlebars. Organisers by in large feel once a rider is ' on the road' as it were it's the rider’s responsibility as to how they conduct themselves. The organisers quite rightly I feel have no powers to act in whatever way regards to conduct of riders on the highway, that I feel is a matter for the Police.
I am doing a Sportive this weekend run by Kilotogo link to the event website here... http://www.kilotogo.com/index.php?optio ... vent_id=39
I, today wrote to Simon Thomson of Kilotogo regards "Going for Gold" which on this event is very hard to achieve for most taking part as there is a lot of slow climbing to be done, some of the consequences of this may produce a form of pseudo racing in my opinion and is contrary to the spirit of the British Cycling’s Guidelines which this event is stated as being run under, I would like to see an end to standards altogether and just report on rider times, I await a response.
I also here have a link to our instructions emailed to us... http://www.kilotogo.com/newsletter/Wild ... manual.pdf as you can see there is good reference by Kilotogo as to being courteous to other road users especially horse, dogs etc. (Although I wish some dogs were courteous to us cyclists) Not all organisers advice is as good as this but that's due in part to there not being an organisation to date that organises the organisers.

steve01jag

Just a quick observation,

All participants in sportives on public roads are governed by the Road Traffic Act. No dispensation is given because riders are in a cycling event, just as much as no dispensation is given to the midwife going to deliver a baby or the mum trying to pick up her little angels from play school and is running late. A lady driving in her car tooting her horn expecting people to get out of her way or forcing her way through other traffic would, I imagine, be commiting an offence! The Road Traffic Act states the accepted behaviour of road users, enforcement is another matter.

Ann Cakebread

Thanks, Ron. The Kilotogo instructions do sound good. UK Cycling Events encourage residents who have been the victims of discourtesy or dangerous riding to report the matter to them. Without numbers large enough to see, this is impossible. Police do not have the resources to monitor such large Sportives, so in UK Cycling Events' recent 83-mile, 1800-rider event through the Forest, for instance, numerous riders rode through a temporary red traffic light at a short roadworks dangerously against traffic, expecting motorists to give way to them, with complete impunity. Furtunately some skilful driving avoided accidents!

Any suggestions for letting cyclists know that a motorist is on a very urgent or even life-or-death mission, and please would they not completely block a narrow lane, would be greatly appreciated. (I hate to think of what would have happened to my 18month old grandson with meningitis if his parents had been held up on their way to hospital by selfish cyclists : they arrived only just in time to save his life and avoid life-long injury.) Riding for pleasure, even in an extremely important sportive, does not compare with some other uses of the road. Most folk understand beeping to be a polite request, not indicative of anger or unreasonable expectation of "owning the road". Most people using a car try to be courteous to cyclists, and most cyclists try to be courteous to cars. I agree that it is the (fairly substantial) minority on both sides which causes the friction - and thereby jeopardise safety.