What is it with phono cables???????

SimonAH

Finally got around to fitting an aerial for the DAB HiFi seperate on the stereo (hell, we've only been in this house for eighteen months) and realised that I hadn't got a phono-phono cable to hook it up to the amp.

Off to Curry's and Comet (side by side in town) and the CHEAPEST blinkin' cable would have worked out at £24 to connect them. It was gold plated, it was RFI shielded, it was packed in a beautiful box, and I would need two of them.......

Has the world gone freaking mad? Even the most discerning audiophile would not be able to detect a sound difference on anything but the highest top-end system. In an accoustic chamber. With an oscilloscope.

Got a pair of cables in B&Q for £3.99. And I consider that expensive. :twisted:

DrLex

At least there's an analogue signal through them; did you clock the price of the HDMI cables? "Ah, you'll find the 0s and 1s are transmitted with greater fidelity with this £70 cable" and other such snake-oil patter...

supersonic

£3.99! I got 6 on ebay for that lol.

Mr Sworld

Meh... Phono's...



Worst audio connector EVER!

edds

My favorite I saw recently was a gold plated optical cable. Because the light really cares what metal is used for the connector.

cyclingprop

It had better have been carbon fibre phono for £3.99.

supersonic

Some of the BS in the audio world is truly amazing! One of the best I heard was colouring in the outside of CDs with green pen to stop scattered light degrading sound quality!

DrLex

supersonic wrote:

Some of the BS in the audio world is truly amazing! One of the best I heard was colouring in the outside of CDs with green pen to stop scattered light degrading sound quality!

Was that before or after you'd put them in the freezer?

optimisticbiker

supersonic wrote:

Some of the BS in the audio world is truly amazing! One of the best I heard was colouring in the outside of CDs with green pen to stop scattered light degrading sound quality!

Ah, now the jury was out on that one for a while. There is some arguable physics on this. And I was given a demo at a high-end audio retail establishment which did seem to support the theory, but it wasn't very scientific. The theory goes that light refracted/reflected back from the plastic/air junction at the edge of the CD either a) reduces the signal-to-noise ratio of the light reflected back off the platter into the optical diode or b) sets up interference patterns that cause increased jitter of the received digital signal... the essence of the argument being that both phenomena make the signal-to-noise ratio of the recovered audio signal worse. The demo consisted of playing a disc containing a single tone and showing the S/N ratio on a scope using an eye-diagram, then colouring the edge and demonstrating the improvement. I have to say the improvement was barely discernable (about .7 - 1dB) and its highly debateable that you would be able to hear an improvement. The reason the demo wasn't too scientific is that having coloured the edge, the demonstrator cleaned the CD, so the improvement could have equally been due to the improved S/N of the cleaned CD and not the colouring (assuming this wasn't part of the 'con'! ). Suffice to say I didnt part with the £15 they were asking (though I admit I did try on a couple of CDs with a green whiteboard marker... it made no discernable difference other than giving me stripy green fingers )

CiB

The green edge on CDs does work & the physics behind it is sound.

Phono connectors make a difference too. The best I had I made myself using some decent wire, shielding & connectors from Maplins. Like anything else though you're into dimishing returns as you spend more. A bit like bikes surely, which makes it a surprise to find someone questioning the value of spending good money on bits & bobs that most people with a life just don't get.

rolf_f

CiB wrote:

A bit like bikes surely, which makes it a surprise to find someone questioning the value of spending good money on bits & bobs that most people with a life just don't get.

Exactly! Look on it as, errrr, like Super Record or Dura Ace for Hi Fi enthusiasts! No discernable difference cf the standard stuff but it makes you feel really good to have it

supersonic

CD plays have bit error correction which works far better than green pen (assuming these errant bits of light cause error - not seen any proof they do!). And IMO, cabling makes no difference either.

But if it works for you, go for it!

cooldad

Whats wrong with $40,000 speaker cable?

Or £20,000 power cables?

Get a job.

veronese68

Surely when discussing audio cable for something that's converting a digital signal that is already compromised (DAB in this case) the quality of cable is less of an issue.

CiB

Veronese68 wrote:

Surely when discussing audio cable for something that's converting a digital signal that is already compromised (DAB in this case) the quality of cable is less of an issue.

It still pays to get the best of what's left of the audio from source to amp, and R3 is broadcast in something approaching reasonable audio quality. Why toss away any more of the source material?

supersonic wrote:

And IMO, cabling makes no difference

So wide of the mark there. The cheap nasty bell wire connects that come with most bits of audio gear are worse than worse. Even a simple upgrade makes a big difference; it's not even close. As per earlier on, it's like claiming that different groupsets don't really make a difference on the bike.

Mr Sworld

CiB wrote:

The green edge on CDs does work & the physics behind it is sound.

Ok, I'm not even going to touch that one...

CiB wrote:

Phono connectors make a difference too. The best I had I made myself using some decent wire, shielding & connectors from Maplins. Like anything else though you're into dimishing returns as you spend more. A bit like bikes surely, which makes it a surprise to find someone questioning the value of spending good money on bits & bobs that most people with a life just don't get.

Decent phono connectors make a difference because they are made well, I have also made my own using Van Damme cable and Van Damme connectors because:

a) I use them at work

b) There were free

c) This is what recording studios used before digital became the standard

However no one uses unbalanced connectors in analogue music recording, it's all XLR.

This idea that 0.5m of interconnect cable is somehow making a different to the hundreds of meters of PCB copper in electronic items is laughable.

The best 'cable upgrade' I ever heard was someone trying to sell me 'directional' speaker wire... When I asked him why I'd want a cable that only sent the signal one way when speakers rely on an alternating signal there wasn't a answer...

Mr Sworld

Veronese68 wrote:

Surely when discussing audio cable for something that's converting a digital signal that is already compromised (DAB in this case) the quality of cable is less of an issue.

Of course it isn't, it's all about the D/A converters. Most digital electronics should use Optical or SPDIF as the output. The amp (or the pre-amp) should have a excellent D/A converter built in.

However as you are feeding this perfect digital signal into a speaker and then a human ear the digital bit gets lost along the way...

No one really likes digital, look at all the 80's synth and 808 emulators out there. Also Mr Marshall (god rest his soul) made, and still makes, a lot of money with valve amplifiers....

Wheelspinner

Mr Sworld wrote:

The amp (or the pre-amp) should have a excellent D/A converter built in.

Except virtually none of them do. 99% of them have poor to average D/A sections, no better than the one in the digital source. To make things worse, they usually have the D/A convertor share a power supply with the pre- and power-amp stages, meaning more noise and rubbish in the signal path.

Mr Sworld wrote:

This idea that 0.5m of interconnect cable is somehow making a different to the hundreds of meters of PCB copper in electronic items is laughable.

Er, why? You also state that "decent" phono connectors make a difference, so why is it "laughable" to allege a "decent" piece of wire has no benefit in comparison to a piece of junk? Evidence please?

Mr Sworld wrote:

The best 'cable upgrade' I ever heard was someone trying to sell me 'directional' speaker wire... When I asked him why I'd want a cable that only sent the signal one way when speakers rely on an alternating signal there wasn't a answer...

Perhaps you should have already known the answer, since you appear to be at least partially experienced with cables. The main reason for a cable being identified as directional is that the RF shielding is terminated at the source end, which means any hum picked up in the cable RFI shield goes to ground there rather than being passed into the receiving end of the connection. So, if you turn it around and run it the "wrong" way, all the RF rubbish picked up in the shielding is nicely transferred to the speaker end of the connection, which don't generally have an electrical ground connection.

sunburnt

Working in radio all my working life and having spent years in studios recording and playing back from simple voices, to four piece bands, ukulele orchestras and brass bands, the best cables I have ever heard came from adapting cat 5 network cable.

They keep the sound clean, for example http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

sheepsteeth

i would say that you are all missing the point.

"listening" to music is so old, you need to submerge yourself in music, like this lady:

sideways

Yukirin

"However no one uses unbalanced connectors in analogue music recording, it's all XLR."

yep, we do still use unbalanced connections in an outboard studio, particularly if you're picking stuff up from the early 90's. My d80, bless, has 16 phono connections for the in/outs and I'm sure some of on akai samplers are unbalanced. I use them because they are the right tools for certain jobs and would never discard a piece of hardware simply because it was unbalanced.

Single direction cables are used to break ground loops. Proco used to ship cables with a terminated earth at one end with their pedals.

Good cable is worth it *if* you know how to listen for it. I remember my dad trying to teach me bass guitar when I was little and I simply couldnt hear a bass line in a song. Most people have to learn what to listen to. The plus side of learning is you can get more appreciation from good recordings and equipment. The downside is the poo poo really stands out.
And next comes the rant about compression...

Anyway, I'm going off on one. £24.99 for a phono cable? Doesnt sound unreasonable to me.
£24.99 for a cable from a highstreet chain? Thats just crazy talk. You'd get the equivalent quality for 150% less on the net.

Mr Sworld

Wheelspinner wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

The amp (or the pre-amp) should have a excellent D/A converter built in.

Except virtually none of them do. 99% of them have poor to average D/A sections, no better than the one in the digital source. To make things worse, they usually have the D/A convertor share a power supply with the pre- and power-amp stages, meaning more noise and rubbish in the signal path.

Quite, which is why so much money is spent on stand-alone D/A converters

Wheelspinner wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

This idea that 0.5m of interconnect cable is somehow making a different to the hundreds of meters of PCB copper in electronic items is laughable.

Er, why? You also state that "decent" phono connectors make a difference, so why is it "laughable" to allege a "decent" piece of wire has no benefit in comparison to a piece of junk? Evidence please?

By 'decent I mean one that has well terminated connectors and has a resonable cross sectional area of wire inside. More the physical construction than the amount of snake oil included in it.

Wheelspinner wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

The best 'cable upgrade' I ever heard was someone trying to sell me 'directional' speaker wire... When I asked him why I'd want a cable that only sent the signal one way when speakers rely on an alternating signal there wasn't a answer...

Perhaps you should have already known the answer, since you appear to be at least partially experienced with cables. The main reason for a cable being identified as directional is that the RF shielding is terminated at the source end, which means any hum picked up in the cable RFI shield goes to ground there rather than being passed into the receiving end of the connection. So, if you turn it around and run it the "wrong" way, all the RF rubbish picked up in the shielding is nicely transferred to the speaker end of the connection, which don't generally have an electrical ground connection.

[/quote]

Never in all my years have I seen a shielded speaker cable, shielded signal cable is standard and what you describe is common when converting from ballanced to unballanced. This was standard, single core, speaker cable with arrows printed on the jacket...

gtvlusso

I have a load of them in my shed - I would have posted one to you!!!!!!

supersonic

So wide of the mark there. The cheap nasty bell wire connects that come with most bits of audio gear are worse than worse. Even a simple upgrade makes a big difference; it's not even close. As per earlier on, it's like claiming that different groupsets don't really make a difference on the bike.

Fancy a blindfold test? I bring my cheapo cables around and we play a few CDs - see if you can tell which is which! Same with the green pen. I'll bet you a tenner you couldn't get 10 out of 10 ;-)

SteppenHerring

The green pen does work. Without it, the light bouncing around mean that the ones and zeroes come out a bit ... italic. With the green pen, the ones are fully upright and the zeroes are more rounded.

cyclingprop

SteppenHerring wrote:

The green pen does work. Without it, the light bouncing around mean that the ones and zeroes come out a bit ... italic. With the green pen, the ones are fully upright and the zeroes are more rounded.

So the green pen is normal, and the pen used in the factory to write all the 1s and 0s is a calligraphy pen?.

They're pits and nulls. Incidentally when I was looking at university physics courses, Cardiff were doing research into blue lasers because the wavelength of blue light is shorter than red and theoretical applications would include cd/data disc lasers as they would permit (physically) smaller recorded data bits, and therefore more to a single disc.

A few years later blu-ray came out. Cool

YeehaaMcgee

SteppenHerring wrote:

The green pen does work. Without it, the light bouncing around mean that the ones and zeroes come out a bit ... italic. With the green pen, the ones are fully upright and the zeroes are more rounded.

Duh. That depends on what font was used when typing out the 1s and 0s on the CDs


Seriously, green pens, better quality cables? Studios using Vanne Damme cables? You're all fekking mental.
Stop it, or I'm telling my dad on you.

Anonymous

Always remember from the days when I worked for a certain motorsport company that branched out into audio for some insane reason, the big boss behind it at the time laughed at how they could take the same relatively cheap cables used to wire up cars and flog them to idiots buying their stupidly expensive audio kit (£70k speakers being the most stupid).

Also remember going to audio shows and everyone there were ageing bearded cardigan types, frothing at the mouth over valves and ranting about jitter when it came to 1s and 0s. Life + a + get .

A least frothing at the mouth over some carbon full sus is a more interesting sad life.

ddraver

cyclingprop wrote:

A few years later blu-ray came out. Cool

Oh is that why its Blu-ray....Well that's my fact for the day!

merkin

I have been told to wire up home audio systems with the writing on the (unshielded) cables starting at the amp and reading towards the speakers as the cable was directional. Thought it was a load of bollox back then, still to be convinced. Some people really do have more money than sense. £40k for a lead.....

cyclingprop

merkin wrote:

I have been told to wire up home audio systems with the writing on the (unshielded) cables starting at the amp and reading towards the speakers as the cable was directional. Thought it was a load of bollox back then, still to be convinced. Some people really do have more money than sense. £40k for a lead.....

Did you do it?

Copper cable isn't directional in a speaker system, at least not outside the amp/speakers. You could do worse than observe the polarity, but I don't know (genuinely) if you'd hear the difference.