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Hubs

asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
edited April 2012 in Road buying advice
I'm looking to have some new wheels built, my first foray into hand built wheels.

Wheels are going to be used for weekends on the best bike in all weathers and I've already got Reynolds Assaults for when I fancy looking like a deep rim poseur.

I'm pretty set on Stans ZTRAlpha 340 rims with Sapim CX-Ray spokes. For spoke numbers I'll take the wheel builders advice but although I want lightness I love the fact my Hope Pro3 RS-Monos are bullet proof and haven't seen a spoke key in 6,000 miles.

Main question though is about hubs; I thought I wanted Chris King R45s. I actually decided I wanted them before anything else but now I'm thinking that I might go for Royce or DT Swiss instead.

Anyone offer any pros and cons? I think I'm probably going to be happy with whatever I choose but the Royce's are £150ish cheaper......
Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
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Posts

  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    What about PMP hubs? Or Hopes (if you're happy with them)

    Both a probably much cheaper than the others you're considering. Never used Royce hubs, but Id have DT's over the CK's.
  • ilm_zero7ilm_zero7 Posts: 2,213
    I know a good wheel builder and he swears by DT Swiss hubs
    http://veloviewer.com/SigImage.php?a=3370a&r=3&c=5&u=M&g=p&f=abcdefghij&z=a.png
    Wiliers: Cento Uno/Superleggera R and Zero 7. Bianchi Infinito CV and Oltre XR2
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    styxd wrote:
    What about PMP hubs? Or Hopes (if you're happy with them)

    Plus with the Hopes you are doing your bit for the UKs tattered economy :wink:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    Rolf F wrote:
    styxd wrote:
    What about PMP hubs? Or Hopes (if you're happy with them)

    Plus with the Hopes you are doing your bit for the UKs tattered economy :wink:

    So are the Royce hubs.

    These wheels are to replace a set of Fulcrum Racing One two way fits. The hubs on those are fantastically smooth, much smoother than my Hopes, and I'm looking to improve on how the Fulcrums felt.

    Offering more alternatives isn't helping chaps ;)
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    Campagnolo NOS Record hubs? I reckon they'll be pretty smooth since they run on cup and cone bearings. Pretty cheap too.
  • thegreatdividethegreatdivide Posts: 5,797
    I thought my old Campag hubs were noisy but the CK's sound like a bee crossed with a Stuka! Not sure I could live with this...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDeiwn1LCYM

    Can't knock Chris King for build quality though.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Asprilla wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    styxd wrote:
    What about PMP hubs? Or Hopes (if you're happy with them)

    Plus with the Hopes you are doing your bit for the UKs tattered economy :wink:

    So are the Royce hubs

    Cool! I didn't know that. Go get them then! (There you go - I'm being decisive - now do what you are told!!)
    Faster than a tent.......
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    I thought my old Campag hubs were noisy but the CK's sound like a bee crossed with a Stuka! Not sure I could live with this...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDeiwn1LCYM

    Can't knock Chris King for build quality though.

    You've obviously never ridden Hopes! Sounds like a small chainsaw. Once you are used to it though it just blends into the background. It is useful on the commute though for letting both pedestrians and other cyclists know you are about.

    Oh, and that's the disc hub, the R45s are much quieter.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • estampidaestampida Posts: 1,008
    new hope's would be a good choice

    buy the bearing tool, and you can service both sets at home

    but if you want a new maker of hubs on you go

    and if its noise from the freehub (my hope are pretty loud) i 9 are the loudest

    things like frame shape and rim depth plays a huge amount on freehub tonal sound
  • ride_wheneverride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    The most offensive hub I've come across are the halo supadrives:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=693J5UJUhEk

    Very smooth rolling, come in at 372g a pair, so a bit lardier than the CK hubs, but still a reasonable weight.
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    I'm now looking at the DT Swiss 180 Carbon Ceramic hubs. Whispy light, but I have concerns about hard ceramic barings in softer stainless steel races; my ceramic BB lasted 3,000 miles before giving up the ghost and I'd be utterly distraught if the same thing happened to some hubs.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • huuregeilhuuregeil Posts: 780
    I'm not sure about ceramic bearings, my impression was that they're overpriced and wear prematurely. No direct experience though!

    Have you considered Tune? A Mig70, Mag170 combo is both relatively affordable (buy direct from Germany, e.g. Starbike) and very light. Otherwise, for something UK based, Goldtec make really nice road hubs that are relatively light too (340g for a set IIRC, lighter by a bit than Hope, and much lighter than Royce). I have a set, extremely happy with them - only thing to check is the flange spacing with the rear, which is narrow (good for spoke tension, less good for stiffness), which might mean you erring on the side of too many spokes than too few.
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    I think I'm going to go either 28 or 32 spokes as Stans on Kings with 32 Sapim CX-Rays still comes in at around 1300g a pair. From what I've read the ZTRAlphas need more spokes than most rims as they are so light.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • deswellerdesweller Posts: 5,175
    Just to bowl an off-cutter into the mix, have you considered the IRD Cadence Road rim? Eyeletted but still nominally sub-400g; less than half the price of the Stans rim.
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    DesWeller wrote:
    Just to bowl an off-cutter into the mix, have you considered the IRD Cadence Road rim? Eyeletted but still nominally sub-400g; less than half the price of the Stans rim.

    Pretty fixed on the rims as I quite like running tubeless and you can do that with the Stans.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • huuregeilhuuregeil Posts: 780
    Asprilla wrote:
    I think I'm going to go either 28 or 32 spokes as Stans on Kings with 32 Sapim CX-Rays still comes in at around 1300g a pair. From what I've read the ZTRAlphas need more spokes than most rims as they are so light.

    This should be sweet! Post a review when they're built, would be curious as to stiffness vs spoke count. (I'd imagine you'd certainly be able to do 28/32 if not 24/28, depending on your weight, of course).
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    I'm 74kg at the moment so not exactly a featherweight, but on the lighter end of the scale. I'm happy to take the minor penalty of a few extra spokes to reduce the maintenance requirements.

    As for wheel weight (and I know they will probably be heavier than listed):

    2 x rims = 700g
    Hubs = 307g
    Nipples = 30g (?)
    64 x Spokes = 310g

    So that's 1350g for 32 / 32. Each spoke and nipple off drops roughly 5g.

    Or does my maths / understanding suck?
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • huuregeilhuuregeil Posts: 780
    No, that's about right. Except that with cx-rays at that length you're looking at ~5.5g a spoke+nipple. I generally agree about preferring higher spoke counts, but if 32 at the rear is sufficient, 28 at the front will be too. Ask the wheelbuilder, I have zero experience with those rims!
  • bigpiklebigpikle Posts: 1,690
    a club mate recently got some CK R45's built up into some new wheels and they were lovely - the R45s have a softer buzz than the old rims and sound brilliant IMO. I know they're extremely pricey but went straight to the top of my wish list for new wheels, with some Velocity A23 rims...
    Your Past is Not Your Potential...
  • I `ve had Tune hubs and I`ve also had PMP hubs.
    Tune were really light.The front hubs have a nice low resistance to them.The rearTtune hubs on the other hand are very tight and don`t spin for that long in comparison to the front.
    The PMP hubs are heavier the rear hub weighed about 270+ grams if I remember correctly
    But the bearings were amazing front and rear I would`nt hesitate to get another pair built up if I had the funds.
    The only thing that pissed me off about PMP hubs was that they have their own lock ring design.
    11T and 12T rear cassettes need different sized lock rings.
    It`s a small price to pay for QUALITY
  • APIIIAPIII Posts: 2,010
    I chose Campag record for my build. Super smooth and have been virtually maintenance free (I have two sets now). I was tempted by the Royce and was advised by the infamous 'Derek' that they are very well sealed and silky smooth. Overhauling them is a trickier job than most hubs, but one that needs doing only every 5 years.
  • balthazarbalthazar Posts: 1,565
    styxd wrote:
    Campagnolo NOS Record hubs? I reckon they'll be pretty smooth since they run on cup and cone bearings. Pretty cheap too.
    Where do you find them now, cheap or even at all? I have late polished Record hubs on my wheels and I'd love another set, in case I ever need another pair of wheels (not likely but I might go crazy and buy a second bike one day). But the hubs are savagely expensive whenever they crop up on eBay- I guessed the NOS stock must have dwindled. Annoying for me because there's nothing else made now like them.
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    Update: spoken to a couple of builders and it appears some have grave concerns about the ZTR Alpha rims both with stress around the eyelets and detensioning. This may not be an issue as apparently Stans have made some changed and the new rims are hitting these shores shortly.

    However, if these arent an improvement has anyone got ant ideas about alternative builds?

    Budget is £1,000
    Will be used for spring, summer and autumn riding at weekends and one 40 mile midweek session.
    74kg and not a particularly powerful rider
    Am looking for something sub 1400g or close and minimal maintenance

    Currently thinking about IRD Cadence Road / VSR on R45s with 28 / 24 Sapim CX-Ray and might also look at Velocity a23s. Can't find a builder who lists the IRDs and R45s in their price list though.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • deswellerdesweller Posts: 5,175
    Wheelroom.co.uk have the IRD rims; I've just bought one from them as I felt I was too heavy for the Stans. It helps that it's half the price, too.

    Don't know about the hubs. Wheelroom do American Classic and Royce I think. Don't fancy building them yourself? You could budget for a wheelstand and Roger Musson's book.
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    I'm not the handiest, so I'd prefer to leave it to someone with decades of experiance.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • deswellerdesweller Posts: 5,175
    Dave Hunt might be able to sort you out; his website's a bit flaky though, so you're best off contacting him.
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    DesWeller wrote:
    Dave Hunt might be able to sort you out; his website's a bit flaky though, so you're best off contacting him.

    Cheers, just dropped him an email.
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
  • APIIIAPIII Posts: 2,010
    I'm considering the A23's for a new build this summer. I've been using the aeroheads for a couple of years now (OC rear) and love them - lightweight and forgiving, I use them 90% of the time. With the record hubs they cost me about £360, half the price of my Fulcrum zeros, and considerably less than my Lightweight standards.
  • giant_mangiant_man Posts: 6,878
    I `ve had Tune hubs and I`ve also had PMP hubs.
    Tune were really light.The front hubs have a nice low resistance to them.The rearTtune hubs on the other hand are very tight and don`t spin for that long in comparison to the front.
    The PMP hubs are heavier the rear hub weighed about 270+ grams if I remember correctly
    But the bearings were amazing front and rear I would`nt hesitate to get another pair built up if I had the funds.
    The only thing that pissed me off about PMP hubs was that they have their own lock ring design.
    11T and 12T rear cassettes need different sized lock rings.
    It`s a small price to pay for QUALITY
    That's why my next pair of handbuilts will be on PMP. Chris King for campag very nice but very noisy as well all know. Tune a little delicate.
  • asprillaasprilla Posts: 8,440
    Update: I've placed an order.

    H Plus Son Archetype rims on Chris King R45s with 24 / 28 CX-Rays. All in black.

    3-4 week wait for the rims. Will be 50g heavier than the same build with Velocity A23s but I think these rims look fantastic, and that's what it's all about, isn't it?
    Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
    Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
    Sun - Cervelo R3
    Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX
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