Titanic

Frank the tank
Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
edited April 2012 in The bottom bracket
Like a lot of people it's always interested me but, obviously this week being the 100th anniversary of its sinking there has been a lot of coverage.

A question I would ask is the people that were denied any chance of escape how would a modern day inquest find as cause of their death.

Accidental
Corporate Manslaughter
Manslaughter
Mis-adventure
Unlawful killing
Murder
Open verdict.

I can't think of any other possibilities.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
«1

Comments

  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    edited April 2012
    IMO it's a mixture.

    Corporate Manslaughter because WSL ordered the Captain to call full steam ahead hoping to get to New York,which only forced water in faster.

    Negligence/professional incompetence: Capt Smith acted upon WSL's wishes and made decisions that were ultimately fatal. Bulkhead doors - full steam ahead

    Murder: steerage passengers were locked in with no option but to drown.

    There was a major flaw in the design of the bulkhead doors too. In order to have a single long corridor(Scotch Road?) in first class the doors could only be raised so far through the ship. This meant that the doors didn't actually reach high enough and the water ingress simply poured over the top and through coal bunkers.


    Unbelieveably - Nobody but the media ever called the Titanic "unsinkable" Advertising Standards today would absolutely devour that if it was the case.
    The sad thing is, Northern Ireland is celebrating the Titanic because it was built in Belfast,was the grandest ship of it's period. Building museums and staircases to create some tourist interest to essentially celebrate a preventable tragedy. They aren't raising glasses in memory,they're raising glasses to a crafted machine,poor design and control of which resulted in loss of life.

    I wonder how those who perished would feel to know that the fact they died(and not their memory) is being used to create income and provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.
  • sfichele
    sfichele Posts: 605
    Simple, judging by other disasters, like the Marchioness, the public inquiry would be delayed by 15 years, would then cost £54 million and its conclusions would be hidden by a super-injunction
    BMC: http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12749451
  • MrChuck
    MrChuck Posts: 1,663
    Murder: steerage passengers were locked in with no option but to drown.

    Myth from the movies, according to a BBC article a couple of days ago.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    MrChuck wrote:
    Murder: steerage passengers were locked in with no option but to drown.

    Myth from the movies, according to a BBC article a couple of days ago.
    The Len Goodman one?(or news article?) Did you miss the bit near the end when it was said that having money increased your chances of survival? IE:A first class passenger had much much higher chances of getting into a lifeboat than a steerage passenger who was sharing a tiny cabin with 3 others.
  • MrChuck
    MrChuck Posts: 1,663
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    MrChuck wrote:
    Murder: steerage passengers were locked in with no option but to drown.

    Myth from the movies, according to a BBC article a couple of days ago.
    The Len Goodman one?(or news article?)

    From the BBC website. And while this is undoubtedly true:
    having money increased your chances of survival? IE:A first class passenger had much much higher chances of getting into a lifeboat than a steerage passenger who was sharing a tiny cabin with 3 others.

    It's a very long way from
    Murder: steerage passengers were locked in with no option but to drown
    .
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Have a watch from 20mins in http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_2/

    If the BBC are saying it's myth from the movies,then why is it being reported here? Being read from a survivors account? Yes the brothers got out,but hundreds didn't

    25% of 3rd class survived - over 60% of 1st class survived.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    The article said that while steerage passengers did struggle to make it to the life boats, it wasn't malicious, nobody attempted to deliberately impede them.

    Gates were already closed (not closed deliberately after the iceberg was struck) to segregate the ship, and there was a delay in opening these due to lack of communication to the stewards whose job it was to open them. Once opened steerage passengers got lost in the ship. The deck they were launching the life boats from was a 1st class promenade. 1st class passengers knew where this was, 3rd passengers had no idea how to get there.

    I read the article and watched the documentary and thought this was a discrepancy too. Different researchers were involved and came to different conclusions presumably.
  • MrChuck
    MrChuck Posts: 1,663
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Have a watch from 20mins in http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_2/

    If the BBC are saying it's myth from the movies,then why is it being reported here? Being read from a survivors account? Yes the brothers got out,but hundreds didn't

    25% of 3rd class survived - over 60% of 1st class survived.

    It's being read from a newspaper article, based on a survivor's account. Len Goodman a minute later says something to the effect of "the official inquiry didn't support them being locked below, but lots of them died anyway".

    From the BBC:
    One of the most emotive scenes in Cameron's Titanic portrays the third class passengers as being forcibly held below the decks and prevented from reaching the lifeboats. Richard Howells argues that there is no historical evidence to support this.

    Gates did exist which barred the third class passengers from the other passengers. But this was not in anticipation of a shipwreck but in compliance with US immigration laws and the feared spread of infectious diseases.

    Third class passengers included Armenians, Chinese, Dutch, Italians, Russians, Scandinavians and Syrians as well as those from the British Isles - all in search of a new life in America.

    "Under American immigration legislation, immigrants had to be kept separate so that before the Titanic docked in Manhattan, it first stopped at Ellis Island - where the immigrants were taken for health checks and immigration processing," Howells says.

    Each class of passengers had access to their own decks and allocated lifeboats - although crucially no lifeboats were stored in the third class sections of the ship.

    Third class passengers had to find their way through a maze of corridors and staircases to reach the boat deck. First and second class passengers were most likely to reach the lifeboats as the boat deck was a first and second class promenade.

    The British Inquiry Report noted that the Titanic was in compliance with the American immigration law in force at the time - and that allegations that third class passengers were locked below decks were false.

    No doubt the losses were massively disproportionate, and that's directly related to how hard it was to get up from steerage compared to the other classes. But again, that's a long way from people being locked in and murdered.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Graeme_S wrote:
    The article said that while steerage passengers did struggle to make it to the life boats, it wasn't malicious, nobody attempted to deliberately impede them.

    Gates were already closed (not closed deliberately after the iceberg was struck) to segregate the ship, and there was a delay in opening these due to lack of communication to the stewards whose job it was to open them. Once opened steerage passengers got lost in the ship. The deck they were launching the life boats from was a 1st class promenade. 1st class passengers knew where this was, 3rd passengers had no idea how to get there.

    I read the article and watched the documentary and thought this was a discrepancy too. Different researchers were involved and came to different conclusions presumably.
    Therefore someones indecisiveness cost the lives of many. Might as well have thrown them into a maze blindfolded.

    "Far from the lifeboats,and that's where Titanic's crew tried to keep them.-The chaos was witnessed by a survivor,Margaret Murhpy-"

    "A crowd of men were trying to get to a higher deck,and were fighting the sailors. Then the sailors fastened down the hatchways,it meant all hope was gone"

    "The brothers died,because with a third class ticket. The odds always stood against them"

    I will concede, maybe not murder. But someone amongst all of this is responsible for hundreds of deaths,whether that was by not unlocking(or indeed locking gates) or just indecisiveness. Yes the official enquiry didn't support the idea,but the figures show something was amiss. How in-depth was the enquiry to begin with?
  • islwyn
    islwyn Posts: 650
    On the subject of Titanic, look at these THICK twerps.

    AqEeUIECEAEyc7p.png:large
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Islwyn wrote:
    On the subject of Titanic, look at these THICK twerps.

    AqEeUIECEAEyc7p.png:large

    Yet not surprising..
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    The sad thing is, Northern Ireland is celebrating the Titanic because it was built in Belfast,was the grandest ship of it's period. Building museums and staircases to create some tourist interest to essentially celebrate a preventable tragedy. They aren't raising glasses in memory,they're raising glasses to a crafted machine,poor design and control of which resulted in loss of life.

    I wonder how those who perished would feel to know that the fact they died(and not their memory) is being used to create income and provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.
    To quote many people in Belfast "She was all right when she left here". The craftsmanship and industrial achievement in building the Titanic is impressive. The flaws were in the design and operation, which was nothing to do with the people of Belfast.

    People are interested in the ship, I think it's a bit bonkers that it's taken Belfast this long to capitalise on the potential tourist money that's up for grabs.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Graeme_S wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    The sad thing is, Northern Ireland is celebrating the Titanic because it was built in Belfast,was the grandest ship of it's period. Building museums and staircases to create some tourist interest to essentially celebrate a preventable tragedy. They aren't raising glasses in memory,they're raising glasses to a crafted machine,poor design and control of which resulted in loss of life.

    I wonder how those who perished would feel to know that the fact they died(and not their memory) is being used to create income and provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.
    To quote many people in Belfast "She was all right when she left here". The craftsmanship and industrial achievement in building the Titanic is impressive. The flaws were in the design and operation, which was nothing to do with the people of Belfast.

    People are interested in the ship, I think it's a bit bonkers that it's taken Belfast this long to capitalise on the potential tourist money that's up for grabs.

    It's the design,the craftsmanship and the building of the Titanic that is celebrated,not the rememberance of those who died. It's the design,the craftsmanship and the building of the Titanic that is being used to capitalise on tourist attractions for the sake of a few ££ in the purse.

    "Yay we built Titanic,lets have a pint" is really what's happening here. No second thought for the unfortunate loss of life which is saddening.

    As a nation we have lost our way,but still managed to find the pub.Hundreds of people died,but lets not let that get in the way of making money or having a swally.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    I haven't been to the museum yet, although I expect I will when I'm in NI in October. According to the website there is an entire gallery about the sinking, and another about the aftermath, both of which I would imagine give more than a second thought to the loss of life.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Graeme_S wrote:
    I haven't been to the museum yet, although I expect I will when I'm in NI in October. According to the website there is an entire gallery about the sinking, and another about the aftermath, both of which I would imagine give more than a second thought to the loss of life.
    Probably does,I guess marketing a tragedy and mentioning loss of life won't draw a crowd
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    I understand your reservations, but I think you could level the same accusation far more strongly at something like the Imperial War Museum which contains machines built for the specific purpose of killing people who died far more recently than 100 years ago.
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Graeme_S wrote:
    I understand your reservations, but I think you could level the same accusation far more strongly at something like the Imperial War Museum which contains machines built for the specific purpose of killing people who died far more recently than 100 years ago.
    Or the Tower of London, or many other examples.
    Should James Cameron dedicate all profits from the movie to charity?

    Conscience rarely gets in the way of making money.
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Graeme_S wrote:
    I haven't been to the museum yet, although I expect I will when I'm in NI in October. According to the website there is an entire gallery about the sinking, and another about the aftermath, both of which I would imagine give more than a second thought to the loss of life.
    Probably does,I guess marketing a tragedy and mentioning loss of life won't draw a crowd

    That doesn't explain the ridiculous queues of (mainly English) tourists for Auschwitz every summer.

    Tragedy is a big seller.

    The Titantic exhibition will sell both on that and the boat itself - that's why it's famous in the first place.
    _
  • Monkeypump
    Monkeypump Posts: 1,528
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    ...the fact they died(and not their memory) is being used to create income...
    Yes, possibly
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    ...and provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.
    Really, a nation? Can't see that many people (as a proportion of the nation) being that bothered.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Monkeypump wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    ...the fact they died(and not their memory) is being used to create income...
    Yes, possibly
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    ...and provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.
    Really, a nation? Can't see that many people (as a proportion of the nation) being that bothered.
    A Titanic Signature Project has been prioritised by the Northern Ireland Tourist Board for a programme of investment to establish Belfast as a ‘must see’ visitor destination around the world. It will promote Belfast as the home of the Titanic, and celebrate the city’s maritime and industrial achievements over the last century through promotion of its stories and development of the wide range of Titanic and maritime heritage assets.

    The Titanic Signature Building (TSB) is a key component of this project. This £97m visitor attraction is funded by both the private and public sector, with NITB project managing £43m of NI Executive investment. This is a key element of Belfast’s Titanic experience and is currently under construction in the Titanic Quarter, the city’s new £7bn waterfront development which, when finished, will be bigger than London’s Canary Wharf.

    Currently using the working title ‘Titanic Belfast’, the Signature Building will be iconic in design and impact and will house a world-class visitor attraction. The exhibition will tell the story of the construction of Titanic, her maiden voyage, and sinking, but will also celebrate Belfast’s shipbuilding and maritime heritage. It will be Northern Ireland’s largest and most successful built visitor attraction with nothing in the region to rival it in terms of such scale, originality and innovation. It will open in spring 2012 to mark the centenary of the Titanic’s maiden voyage in April 2012.

    Capable of handling in the region of 900,000 visitors per annum, including up to 400,000 visitors to the exhibition, the building will be located at the head of the slipways, where the Titanic was built, in the heart of the Titanic Quarter. It will house a number of exhibition galleries, a banqueting suite and conference facilities, community and education space and catering and retail outlets.

    NITB is also involved in the development and promotion of a number of other authentic Titanic and maritime heritage assets, including

    It's not about money at all.
  • penugent
    penugent Posts: 913
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.

    Where did that crap come from? A nasty bit of racial stereotyping there!

    Apart from anything else, don't forget that a few English cities are also busy 'claiming' ownership of the sad event.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    penugent wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.

    Where did that crap come from? A nasty bit of racial stereotyping there!

    Apart from anything else, don't forget that a few English cities are also busy 'claiming' ownership of the sad event.
    Is it racial stereotyping when I am Northern Irish? St Patrick's day is exactly the same lol
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    penugent wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.

    Where did that crap come from? A nasty bit of racial stereotyping there!

    Apart from anything else, don't forget that a few English cities are also busy 'claiming' ownership of the sad event.
    It is a fail (regardless where you are from).
    The Irish (North or South) don't need an excuse to drink :wink:
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    Given it was supposed to be women and children first I believe more first class men survived than third class women.

    Not sure if its just an anecdote, or a fact.

    As for youngsters in this day and age only just realising it was an actual event, rather than a work of fiction! Another sad indictment on our education system/society.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • bartimaeus
    bartimaeus Posts: 1,812
    H-Titanic_400x400_2_jpg_400x400_upscale_q85.jpg
    Vitus Sentier VR+ (2018) GT Grade AL 105 (2016)
    Giant Anthem X4 (2010) GT Avalanche 1.0 (2010)
    Kingley Vale and QECP Trail Collective - QECP Trail Building
  • penugent
    penugent Posts: 913
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    penugent wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.

    Where did that crap come from? A nasty bit of racial stereotyping there!

    Apart from anything else, don't forget that a few English cities are also busy 'claiming' ownership of the sad event.
    Is it racial stereotyping when I am Northern Irish? St Patrick's day is exactly the same lol

    You must live in a different NI to the one in which I reside - I'd say it's no different to any other part of the UK.

    I have to say that I have yet to see a single person drink themselves to oblivion in the name of the Titanic. As for St Patricks day, I avoid the Holy Land, - my area seemed sober enough!!
  • penugent
    penugent Posts: 913
    daviesee wrote:
    penugent wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.

    Where did that crap come from? A nasty bit of racial stereotyping there!

    Apart from anything else, don't forget that a few English cities are also busy 'claiming' ownership of the sad event.
    It is a fail (regardless where you are from).
    The Irish (North or South) don't need an excuse to drink :wink:

    And they that frequent city/town centres across England of an evening do need an excuse? Not from where I'm looking! That's why I say "stereotyping".
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    penugent wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    penugent wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    provide an excuse for a nation to drink itself to oblivion.

    Where did that crap come from? A nasty bit of racial stereotyping there!

    Apart from anything else, don't forget that a few English cities are also busy 'claiming' ownership of the sad event.
    Is it racial stereotyping when I am Northern Irish? St Patrick's day is exactly the same lol

    You must live in a different NI to the one in which I reside - I'd say it's no different to any other part of the UK.

    I have to say that I have yet to see a single person drink themselves to oblivion in the name of the Titanic. As for St Patricks day, I avoid the Holy Land, - my area seemed sober enough!!
    It's early yet,anything could happen :lol:
  • penugent
    penugent Posts: 913
    I'll drink to that.
  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    penugent wrote:
    And they that frequent city/town centres across England of an evening do need an excuse? Not from where I'm looking! That's why I say "stereotyping".
    You are taking this too seriously.
    Have a drink and chill out :wink:
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.

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