Team Sky ride . . . pants!

RichN95.

ddraver wrote:

I'm sorry Rich - Next race we ll all just say nothing for the whole race then everyone can have one post saying Congratulations to the winner. Gosh, that ll be so fun!

But every race thread becomes Sky bashing (at least they got four riders there - where were the BMC superteam?).

The story of this race wasn't their shortcomings, it was the sight of the most successful cobbles rider in history at the very top of his game. And no-one seems to want to recognise that.

mroli

No tA Doctor wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I'd love to know what sports you watch where the opponents tell you exactly what they re going to do beforehand, or only do exactly what they ve done before...

It's less that Boonen didn't tell them what he was going to do, more that it was difficult to believe he'd be able to do it once he'd started. It was a perfectly reasonable assumption by Sky that they'd be able to keep him pegged then claw him back for Flecha or EBH. They would probably have reacted very differently if it had been Spartacus, and so would the non Sky riders.

This.

Whilst totally not the point (and something you seem to have made upin your head) - there are plenty of instances in sports where people tell you what they are going to do - Armstrong's "look" being just one of many examples.

You have criticised Sky for their tactics and for Brailsford for not being there, but admitted that had he been there, or had they employed alternative tactics that this would have made no difference. I am really failing to understand what your beef is with the team? Apart from not signing Boonen maybe?

Rich - agree with you totally. Don't diminish Tom's achievement by blaming the failures of others.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

But every race thread becomes Sky bashing (at least they got four riders there - where were the BMC superteam?).

No super team but at least they managed a podium, eh?

Agreed though. The story shouldn't be about Sky, it should be about Tom.

mr_poll

ddraver wrote:

I'm sorry Rich - Next race we ll all just say nothing for the whole race then everyone can have one post saying Congratulations to the winner. Gosh, that ll be so fun!

ddraver a few posts up wrote:

I will concede that Boonen would have won anyway, EBH would not have beaten him in a sprint and he could have followed anything Flecha did.

Alternatively, read the whole thread and post your thoughts and contribution. Usually yours are thoughts and considerations worth reading!

Rich has a point - you may of been shouting to bring him back straight away but everyone I was watching it with thought it was a brave and potentially stupid move by Boonen and the tactic should be to let Boonen hang out at about 30-40 seconds off the front and burn himself out. If you watch Boonen within the last 15km he is obviously hurting (not surprisingly) and the time does start to fluctuate. However by that stage Sky had right royally stuffed things up by burning their riders for someone whose training has been disrupted with a broken hand and EBH who just doesnt have the legs post 200km (a point which has been made a few times in this thread).
With 15km to go Sky were spent, Boonen had a lead to protect and Boom et al seemed to be happy to ride for 2nd.

ddraver

mroli wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I'd love to know what sports you watch where the opponents tell you exactly what they re going to do beforehand, or only do exactly what they ve done before...

It's less that Boonen didn't tell them what he was going to do, more that it was difficult to believe he'd be able to do it once he'd started. It was a perfectly reasonable assumption by Sky that they'd be able to keep him pegged then claw him back for Flecha or EBH. They would probably have reacted very differently if it had been Spartacus, and so would the non Sky riders.

This.

Whilst totally not the point (and something you seem to have made upin your head) - there are plenty of instances in sports where people tell you what they are going to do - Armstrong's "look" being just one of many examples.

You have criticised Sky for their tactics and for Brailsford for not being there, but admitted that had he been there, or had they employed alternative tactics that this would have made no difference. I am really failing to understand what your beef is with the team? Apart from not signing Boonen maybe?

Rich - agree with you totally. Don't diminish Tom's achievement by blaming the failures of others.

Calm down, we re all having fun here!

I think it is an interesting point that the Team Manager of Sky (or whatever Brailsford calls himself) was not at the Queen of the Classics. I don't think it would have made a huge difference, but even a little difference can help! It also may suggest something about the Olympics and the TdF later on. At the very least it suggests that he values GB track success over Team Sky Classic success...

Yes i think the tactics were wrong - we disagree - but discussing it is fun is nt it? That's why the forum exists. my beef is that when they have 4 riders in the select group that they can't engineer greater success.

Rich - I have said many times that I am a Team Sky fan, I was ecstatic when bradley won P-N and was screaming for Flecha in Het Nieuwsblad (sp?) and I ve defended them on here when others were bashing. Picked Cav for my MSR PTP and defended him against people who said he was "finished" when he had just had an awful day. However, I think they deserve a bit of a bashing this time.

Letting Boonen go that far was vastly increasing his chances of winning. Even if he had the best form that day, keeping him in close check (closer than 30 secs) would have maximised Sky's chances of winning, however slight.

That Boonen rode a fantastic race is not in doubt (see my homoerotic poem). That sky rode a "pants" race is

Mr_poll - I accept that, but I think 30-40 is too much... I think you have to be sure that when you do want to bring him back that you can, and one of those ways is to not let him get too far.I think the "never done it before" thing has been covered. It was no secret that he was in exceptional form.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I'm sorry Rich - Next race we ll all just say nothing for the whole race then everyone can have one post saying Congratulations to the winner. Gosh, that ll be so fun!

But every race thread becomes Sky bashing (at least they got four riders there - where were the BMC superteam?).

The story of this race wasn't their shortcomings, it was the sight of the most successful cobbles rider in history at the very top of his game. And no-one seems to want to recognise that.

Not entirely fair, there are plenty that recognise just that.
I'm with you on the incredible amount of Sky bashing though.

ddraver

Anyway - lets forget our troubles with a "Realistic Movie Trailer" for Titanic - http://9gag.com/gag/3762331

afx237vi

Regarding the Sky bashing, Oscar Wilde springs to mind: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." I'd rather be boss of a team that provokes arguments rather than indifference.

No_Ta_Doctor

afx237vi wrote:

Regarding the Sky bashing, Oscar Wilde springs to mind: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." I'd rather be boss of a team that provokes arguments rather than indifference.

You are Roberto Mancini and I claim my five pounds.

Or didn't you mean arguments inside the team

Jez mon

No tA Doctor wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

I'm sorry Rich - Next race we ll all just say nothing for the whole race then everyone can have one post saying Congratulations to the winner. Gosh, that ll be so fun!

But every race thread becomes Sky bashing (at least they got four riders there - where were the BMC superteam?).

The story of this race wasn't their shortcomings, it was the sight of the most successful cobbles rider in history at the very top of his game. And no-one seems to want to recognise that.

Not entirely fair, there are plenty that recognise just that.
I'm with you on the incredible amount of Sky bashing though.

I'm not particularly surprised at the Sky bashing, if BMC or Garmin were in the situation which Sky found themselves in, and then failed to get someone on the podium, I think they'd come in for a similar amount of flack...

Ultimately, it was an awesome display by Boonen, letting two go from the same team, even at over 50k out, doesn't look smart IMO

RichN95.

No tA Doctor wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Regarding the Sky bashing, Oscar Wilde springs to mind: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." I'd rather be boss of a team that provokes arguments rather than indifference.

You are Roberto Mancini and I claim my five pounds.

Or didn't you mean arguments inside the team

Sky's new kit, perhaps?

afx237vi

No tA Doctor wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Regarding the Sky bashing, Oscar Wilde springs to mind: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." I'd rather be boss of a team that provokes arguments rather than indifference.

You are Roberto Mancini and I claim my five pounds.

Or didn't you mean arguments inside the team

Mancini would be more of a Leopard man, what with the natty scarves and all.



I was going to say cycling could do with a character like Balotelli, but then I remembered Ricco and thought better of it :shock:

No_Ta_Doctor

Hold on a mo Jez, when Boonen went with Terpstra they went from a five man group (with Ballan and Pozzato) a little ahead of the Sky group.

Boone originally went on the cobbles, with Pozzato, then they caught the Europcar rider, then Ballan and Terpstra bridged. I don't think Sky had anything to counter with at that point. I don't know who let Pozzato's wheel go in the first attack, nor who let Ballan and Terpstra get free to bridge (does anyone?). I think quite a few teams may have dozed off for a couple of seconds there.

By the time Skt got back up to the first chasing group Boonen already had a bit of a gap and the chasers were already failing to organise.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Regarding the Sky bashing, Oscar Wilde springs to mind: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." I'd rather be boss of a team that provokes arguments rather than indifference.

You are Roberto Mancini and I claim my five pounds.

Or didn't you mean arguments inside the team

Sky's new kit, perhaps?

I can't help feeling that he must have had quite a few succinct, accurate and heartfelt replies to that particular t-shirt by now.

mroli

ddraver wrote:

Calm down, we re all having fun here!

:roll: I'm calm dude - I could have posted the same to your response!

ddraver wrote:

I think it is an interesting point that the Team Manager of Sky (or whatever Brailsford calls himself) was not at the Queen of the Classics. I don't think it would have made a huge difference, but even a little difference can help! It also may suggest something about the Olympics and the TdF later on. At the very least it suggests that he values GB track success over Team Sky Classic success...

And if Brailsford hadn't been at the Track World cup, people would have blamed him for the poor showing of Vicky P etc etc....

Brailsford is Team Principal - he oversees the operation of the team generally rather than contributing on day to day matters. I think you are reading things into things that just don't exist. There were Team Sky riders out at the Track World Cup too - Swift, Thomas and Kennaugh.

BTW - Mancini cycles to work http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4227667/Roberto-Mancini-bike-scare-as-big-red-machine-closes-on-Man-City-boss.html

No_Ta_Doctor

afx237vi wrote:

I was going to say cycling could do with a character like Balotelli, but then I remembered Ricco and thought better of it :shock:

They both have that uncanny ability to look at the Big Red Self Destruct Button, clearly labelled "DO NOT PUSH THIS BUTTON" and then go ahead and push it.

Jez mon

No tA Doctor wrote:

Hold on a mo Jez, when Boonen went with Terpstra they went from a five man group (with Ballan and Pozzato) a little ahead of the Sky group.

Boone originally went on the cobbles, with Pozzato, then they caught the Europcar rider, then Ballan and Terpstra bridged. I don't think Sky had anything to counter with at that point. I don't know who let Pozzato's wheel go in the first attack, nor who let Ballan and Terpstra get free to bridge (does anyone?). I think quite a few teams may have dozed off for a couple of seconds there.

By the time Skt got back up to the first chasing group Boonen already had a bit of a gap and the chasers were already failing to organise.

Fair point, still, I think Sky should have been able to keep a tighter hold on the gap to Boonen/Terpstra, he's obviously supreme on pave, but there are bits of tarmac, and Sky never really looked remotely like they were capable of reeling him in.

TBH, I would have sacrificed EBH as well, got them to chase as a three up, and had fletcha as the protected rider. Obviously I'm expecting a call from Dave B any day now, as I should obviously be a DS

This week and last week, Sky looked really good, mid race!

inkyfingers

It will be interesting to see what Sky do for the cobbled classics next year. Flecha is obviously near the end of his career and EBH continues to disappoint. Will they give Thomas a full leaders role or will they sign a big name? They certainly have a good backup team in Eisel, Stannard, Hayman etc, but they lack somebody to finish off the good work (i'm not just talking about yesterday's race).

islwyn

I am a fan of TS as they're the most British team out there, but they do talk a lot of crap on the race reports... Poor performance, felt sorry for Ian.

Moomaloid

ddraver wrote:

There is a potential debate that there is a slight conflict of interest between Sky and GB - Brailsford should have been at the Queen of the classics, I would bet that every other team had there A1 Staff there!

Its an Olympic year... He was where he should be.

Sky's ride? They just weren't good enough. End of. Boonen was fantastic yesterday.

Le Commentateur

Luckily there are no cobbles between Box Hill and The Mall. London roads can be a bit rough though.

rebs

2 riders in the top 10? Somehow I think Sky would have jumped at that before the get go.

They didn't get a top 3 but am sure tehy would be happy with what they got.

iainf72

rebs wrote:

2 riders in the top 10? Somehow I think Sky would have jumped at that before the get go.

They didn't get a top 3 but am sure tehy would be happy with what they got.

Their aim was a podium spot, so in the purest sense, they failed.

They did a reasonable ride. Certainly not terrible. Hopefully they'll go away and realise if they want to win this race or Flanders (or M-SR), they need to buy someone who can win it or let Geraint concentrate on it a bit.

andyrr

On reflection I think SKY were on a hiding given the situation : Boonen was in a small group ahead (yes ?) and with 4 of their guys in a group there were obligued to be the main chasers but in reality none of them were particularly strong. The groups best option would have been some discussion of riders/DSs for more of the group to contribute especially once it was becoming apparent that Boonen was starting to go away - don't let him get over 30 secs otherwise it starts to become an impossible task.

blazing_saddles

For every Sky bashing there's a congratulate Cav for whatever, so it kind of evens out.

Another thing not mentioned, but in their defence is that Terpstra was sitting comfy in the group.
Maybe he couldn't stay with Boonan, but he sure was strong on the day.
If he had gone with Boom and Ballan, then the criticism would have been that Sky should not have put all their men on the front.
Fact is: Boonan put Sky (and the rest) in an unattainable situation.

ddraver

I'm just going to say it one more time before the (long) weekend is out - I am not bashing Team Sky, I am bashing Team Sky's performance at P-R 2012. Otherwise I will be accused of hypocritical glory following when i praise them after a good performance or victory.

That is all...

tailwindhome

ddraver wrote:

I'm just going to say it one more time before the (long) weekend is out - I am not bashing Team Sky, I am bashing Team Sky's performance at P-R 2012. Otherwise I will be accused of hypocritical glory following when i praise them after a good performance or victory.

That is all...

Don't be ridiculous. You're either with them or against them. Decide

ddraver

you genuinely made me lol..I thank you!

kozzo

littleking02 wrote:

Did they really have a good Roubaix?

No, they didn't.
Having four men in the chase group and do nothing against one man it's epic fail.
Quality of Sky Team was evaluated more than clear: 4 to 1 and still loosing time...
>>“We hoped to get some help,” Sky’s sports director, Stephen De Jongh, told VeloNews.<<
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
You will always find people who explain how hard it was, why it was not this time...
(typical French attitude) and people who struggle and fight to win.
If you start to praise effort it clearly means that you had no result
and you try to do something wtih you conscience...
it clearly means that your effort was not 100%...
otherwise what for all this propaganda...
it should be anger that drive to victory in the next race.

iainf72

Roger de Vlaeminck: "Boonen won against 3rd cat riders. Nobody gave him any competition. Boring race for non-Belgians"

So there you have it - Sounds like they may as well have had woman in the race.