Team Sky ride . . . pants!

littleking02

I can't seem to understand why people are praising the way Sky had four riders riding hard at the front without the help of other members from BMC, Rabo, Garmin..etc, with Hayman and Stannard doing big turn.

YET with Team Sky at the front the whole chasing group was going backward and the gap to Bonnen was getting bigger and bigger, THANKS TO TEAM SKY. No matter how good Bonnen was, no matter how the other team didn't help out, 4 v 1 and yet they managed to loose him.

Did they really have a good Roubaix?

andrewjoseph

no they didn't, poor tactics i think. harman and kelly couldn't understand their methods either. One man working to exhaustion then another. Surely taking turns would have been better. They had four men up there!

sunburntknees

Their Facebook feed described it as a "strong team performance". Not sure what race they were watching.

Le Commentateur

They can make the selection but they can't make a difference unless they work together.

durhamwasp

andrewjoseph wrote:

no they didn't, poor tactics i think. harman and kelly couldn't understand their methods either. One man working to exhaustion then another. Surely taking turns would have been better. They had four men up there!

Crazy wasn't it!

andyrr

I think their race was pretty rubbish too - not sure what that realistically hoped to get out of it :
EBH not going super (dropped last 20kms or so) Flecha just back from injury then they have their guys on the front just riding like 'diesels' - easy to be wise after the event but they just seemed to be sitting on the front giving the impression of doing something having admittedly done very well to have so many at the sharp end of the race. Might have been best to select 1 or 2 of their guys, say Flecha and Stannard, as the protected riders and then NOT ridden as a team but fired one off down the road, then if/when caught the 2nd man does the same with the other guys sitting on. No-one in the team seemed to have sufficient power to take any time whatsoever off a single man in front - Boonen - and they just burnt energy with zero gain. A fruitless day for Sky IMHO.

Squaggles

Not great tactics by Sky but whatever they did they wouldn't have got Boonen back

Was EBH the rider they were working for ? I couldn't tell . Surely they should have all been riding for Flecha

oldwelshman

I watched the race and thought as Fletcha was just back they put him up the rode, which some of you mentioned Sky should have done. This made thers chase him down which happened.
Then I guess the plan was to work for EBH but he did not have the legs. Not sure how efficient through and off is on cobbles!!
Rabbo Bank were crap and did naff all with two guys there, some one had to have a go, I am not sure Sky were flat out for a while, thought they were pegging it but EBH was cooked. Considering Fletcha just back I think his ride was class. Shame Thomas and Wiggo not there !!
I was surprised Boonen stayed away though irrespective of who was chasing behind, considerring he is not the best at TT, maybe he was sniffing some more coke I think the chasers were also surprised he did not dip in performance for last 55km.

BikingBernie

Does anyone know who makes the tactical decisions for Sky out on the road? I know that they have several director sportifs who used to ride as pros themselves and so should know what's what, but then again isn't Dave Brailsford in overall charge? To me Brailsford does tend to come across as just another 'management' type and therefore, almost by definition, is likely to be a bit of dick who thinks that being fluent in management speak and having a lot of front is an acceptable substitute for knowing what is actually going on.

blazing_saddles

Another issue was that one of their domestiques ended up producing the best finish on the Roubaix track.
Despite having done most of the donkey work, Matt Hayman was still able to raise a sprint from the second group.
Flecha, on the other hand and as usual..............


Even if Sky had said OK and put all 4 to rotate on the front, no way were Ballan and Boom going to contribute.
Once again in P-R, teams were extremely quick to settle for a scrapping over first and second best loser status.

BikingBernie

A team Sky rider listens to a pre-race briefing from team manager David Brailsford before starting Paris-Roubaix:

sunburntknees

Wasn't Brailsford in Melbourne?

Turfle

Other than riding their hardest at the front, which they did, what more could they have done?

Stannard had come up from the group behind and gave his all. Hagen went out the back quickly. It was essentially Hayman vs Boonen. Should they have also sacrificed Flecha, while giving the rest of the group a free ride?

The oddest thing reading the forums this morning is the lack of criticism for anyone in the chase group other than Sky. Boom, Wynants, Ballan, Turgot, Van Summeren etc all sat there doing absolutely nothing. Why on earth should Sky be expected to also use Flecha? The others would have jumped him as soon as they could.

roypsb

Turfle wrote:

Other than riding their hardest at the front, which they did, what more could they have done?

Stannard had come up from the group behind and gave his all. Hagen went out the back quickly. It was essentially Hayman vs Boonen. Should they have also sacrificed Flecha, while giving the rest of the group a free ride?

The oddest thing reading the forums this morning is the lack of criticism for anyone in the chase group other than Sky. Boom, Wynants, Ballan, Turgot, Van Summeren etc all sat there doing absolutely nothing. Why on earth should Sky be expected to also use Flecha? The others would have jumped him as soon as they could.

Mostly agree with you.

Boonen was clearly the strongest rider by some distance so I'm sure whatever the tactics, he would have won. However, those other chasing riders were a bloody disgrace, not contributing at all to try and close the gap.

I do think the Sky tactics were strange though - should have been sharing instead of killing off one at a time.

Not only is Boonst the strongest at the moment, he's having his fair share of luck too. Once again, no punctures.

rick_chasey

RoyPSB wrote:

Not only is Boonst the strongest at the moment, he's having his fair share of luck too. Once again, no punctures.

You make your own luck most of the time.

Being strong at the front on your own massively reduces the chances of punctures - since you can pick the line, you can see what's up ahead - and if you're not too tired you have the energy to avoid the problems.

Boonen could have had a puncture yesterday and won anyway.

mroli

BikingBernie - I am surprised by your comments on here - I often don't agree with what you write, but at least it is usually written from an "educated" point of view and I find it interesting.

Brailsford was in Australia with the track team. There is no way in hell that he could have made the calls "on the road". The Sky team was being DS'd by Steven De Jongh and Servais Knaven (both extremely experienced classics "men").

If you read what Hayman has had to say about the race, the aim was to peg and hold Boonen (which they did), to allow for a potential springboard for Flecha or EBH to make an attack. Whilst they had 2 potential winners in that group in EBH/Flecha, they were also worried about the likes of Ballan and not just setting him up. Also, no-one really thought that Boonen had it in him to solo to a victory like that. I mean how often has that happened and how often has Tom done it?

I'm not saying that Sky got it right tactically, but unlike many on here operating with the power of hindsight, I can understand why they did what they did.

I don't think Sky will be so worried about their tactics, I think they will be worried about what's up with EBH....

andrewjoseph

Sky had 4 men up front, why would another team/rider assist? yes Boonen was powerful, but more so than 4 men? They (the bunch) let him get too big a lead, but it should still have been possible to chase him down.

4 men with others sitting on that they didn't want to lead out. So send some up the road, make the followers work!

pegging the gap? they didn't, they slowed down, tom extended his lead even as he was slowing himself.

Mind you. I am a little incredulous that Tom could outrun so many from 50km out.

ddraver

There is a potential debate that there is a slight conflict of interest between Sky and GB - Brailsford should have been at the Queen of the classics, I would bet that every other team had there A1 Staff there!

Rabbobank were sh1t, but Rabbobank are always sh1t - saying that Sky did well because rabbobank were worse is like saying that Man City are doing well because Wolves are worse. Nope.

I will concede that Boonen would have won anyway, EBH would not have beaten him in a sprint and he could have followed anything Flecha did.

"Holding and pegging Boonen" was riding for Second place - forgive me but I don't think that's good enough! If you set up a shot for one of your own team to win, you will always have someone riding on your coat tails. that's cycling! Ask Fabain Cancellara. You have to deal with it! Again, speaking football, do you put 11 men in your own half to stop the other team scoring for a 0 - 0 draw, or do you try and win by scoring your own goals?

Boonen was the overwhelming favourite, you don't let the overwhelming favourite get way...ever...Fine, peg him back to 10 secs to knacker him out, but make DAMN SURE you can bring him back!! he may not have broken away on his own, but he has broken away in several small breaks many many times! Remember the 2010 RVV with FC?

rick_chasey

ddraver wrote:

Rabbobank were sh1t, but Rabbobank are always sh1t

iainf72

Is there honestly anyone who thinks EBH had the legs to win yesterday? He sat in the group when Hayman and Stannard worked, and got dropped sharpish when the pace went up on the pave.

Seriously, if they were riding for him, they backed the wrong donkey. He finished with Hincapie who'd long been dropped.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

Is there honestly anyone who thinks EBH had the legs to win yesterday? He sat in the group when Hayman and Stannard worked, and got dropped sharpish when the pace went up on the pave.

Seriously, if they were riding for him, they backed the wrong donkey. He finished with Hincapie who'd long been dropped.

Fine, but at least don't do a half assed job of backing said donkey

(ass, donkey...geddit...?)

BikingBernie

mroli wrote:

BikingBernie - I am surprised by your comments on here - I often don't agree with what you write, but at least it is usually written from an "educated" point of view and I find it interesting.

Brailsford was in Australia with the track team. There is no way in hell that he could have made the calls "on the road". The Sky team was being DS'd by Steven De Jongh and Servais Knaven (both extremely experienced classics "men").

Fair comment, but my personal experiences have left me with a bit of a 'thing' about 'managers', especially those that spout BS about 'inner chimps' and so forth, so I took the opportunity to have a quick pop at DB and the 'Sky' setup, unworthy I know.

I would switch tack to the 'conflict of interest' angle, but I see I have already been beaten to it.

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

Is there honestly anyone who thinks EBH had the legs to win yesterday? He sat in the group when Hayman and Stannard worked, and got dropped sharpish when the pace went up on the pave.

Seriously, if they were riding for him, they backed the wrong donkey. He finished with Hincapie who'd long been dropped.

They had two cards to play. One was patently miles off the form required to win it, the other was riding cobbles when only just recovered from a hand injury. Don't think they got dealt the best hand there.

mroli

Hayman's words: "There were four Sky guys but there were two of us really. You can't just put everyone on the front, we could have ridden it back but then Ballan would have gone. We just tried to keep it within striking distance for either Edvald or Flecha."

They kept it within striking distance - they kept it within 1min consistently. There was therefore a launch pad for Flecha or EBH. EBH didn't have the legs (at all) - who knows why? Certainly the Sky team didn't know he didn't have the legs and he was the only one of the Sky team who could possibly beat Boonen in a sprint. They didn't wan to burn Flecha - indeed when the Boom/Ballan break went, Flecha was able to follow.

I just don't know what people are suggesting was the right tactic? Rotate all 4 riders? That way they may have brought Boonen back, but for Ballan's benefit and then Boonen would have won a sprint. Who knows what Stannard said to Hayman - he may have said that he was done, but he'd work for as long as he could before dropping off.

And I cannot recall a race where Boonen has gone for a solo from 50k out.

ddraver

mroli wrote:

And I cannot recall a race where Boonen has gone for a solo from 50k out.

I'd love to know what sports you watch where the opponents tell you exactly what they re going to do beforehand, or only do exactly what they ve done before...

My tactic? When the overwhelming favourite who has demonstrated his superb form consistently over the last month attacks. IMMEDIATELY work to bring him back...at least that's what I was shouting at the telly...

BB - I see the chimp reference now...

Turfle

ddraver wrote:

There is a potential debate that there is a slight conflict of interest between Sky and GB - Brailsford should have been at the Queen of the classics, I would bet that every other team had there A1 Staff there!

Rabbobank were sh1t, but Rabbobank are always sh1t - saying that Sky did well because rabbobank were worse is like saying that Man City are doing well because Wolves are worse. Nope.

I will concede that Boonen would have won anyway, EBH would not have beaten him in a sprint and he could have followed anything Flecha did.

"Holding and pegging Boonen" was riding for Second place - forgive me but I don't think that's good enough! If you set up a shot for one of your own team to win, you will always have someone riding on your coat tails. that's cycling! Ask Fabain Cancellara. You have to deal with it! Again, speaking football, do you put 11 men in your own half to stop the other team scoring for a 0 - 0 draw, or do you try and win by scoring your own goals?

Boonen was the overwhelming favourite, you don't let the overwhelming favourite get way...ever...Fine, peg him back to 10 secs to knacker him out, but make DAMN SURE you can bring him back!! he may not have broken away on his own, but he has broken away in several small breaks many many times! Remember the 2010 RVV with FC?

What do you think Brailsford would have done had he been there? He isn't a DS. No pre-race speech would have enabled Hayman and Stannard to ride harder.

No_Ta_Doctor

ddraver wrote:

mroli wrote:

And I cannot recall a race where Boonen has gone for a solo from 50k out.

I'd love to know what sports you watch where the opponents tell you exactly what they re going to do beforehand, or only do exactly what they ve done before...

My tactic? When the overwhelming favourite who has demonstrated his superb form consistently over the last month attacks. IMMEDIATELY work to bring him back...at least that's what I was shouting at the telly...

BB - I see the chimp reference now...

It's less that Boonen didn't tell them what he was going to do, more that it was difficult to believe he'd be able to do it once he'd started. It was a perfectly reasonable assumption by Sky that they'd be able to keep him pegged then claw him back for Flecha or EBH. They would probably have reacted very differently if it had been Spartacus, and so would the non Sky riders.

Turfle

andrewjoseph wrote:

Sky had 4 men up front, why would another team/rider assist? yes Boonen was powerful, but more so than 4 men? They (the bunch) let him get too big a lead, but it should still have been possible to chase him down.

4 men with others sitting on that they didn't want to lead out. So send some up the road, make the followers work!

pegging the gap? they didn't, they slowed down, tom extended his lead even as he was slowing himself.

Mind you. I am a little incredulous that Tom could outrun so many from 50km out.

Maybe they would assist because Sky were unable to do it on their own.

Again, it was Hayman + a little bit of Stannard vs Boonen. It wasn't, and shouldn't have been 4 Sky men vs Boonen. Don't waste your best card for the benefit of others. The ONLY chance they had of winning was to keep Flecha as fresh as possible.

ddraver

Turfle wrote:

ddraver wrote:

There is a potential debate that there is a slight conflict of interest between Sky and GB - Brailsford should have been at the Queen of the classics, I would bet that every other team had there A1 Staff there!

What do you think Brailsford would have done had he been there? He isn't a DS. No pre-race speech would have enabled Hayman and Stannard to ride harder.

Nothing. it's just a thought...

RichN95.

ddraver wrote:

My tactic? When the overwhelming favourite who has demonstrated his superb form consistently over the last month attacks. IMMEDIATELY work to bring him back...at least that's what I was shouting at the telly...

And then Boonen would have just attacked later and still won and Sky would have been criticized for chasing too much at the wrong times with everyone saying they should have let Boonen go at 55km because he's not Cancellara et,etc. The beauty of Monday morning tactics is that no-one will ever get to see them fail.

In reality sometimes other riders are just better are there's nothing you can really do about it. They might have been able to stop Boonen winning but they wouldn't have won themselves and probably the only thing they could have done to improve their position was to pay more attention in the velodrome.

ddraver

I'm sorry Rich - Next race we ll all just say nothing for the whole race then everyone can have one post saying Congratulations to the winner. Gosh, that ll be so fun!

ddraver a few posts up wrote:

I will concede that Boonen would have won anyway, EBH would not have beaten him in a sprint and he could have followed anything Flecha did.

Alternatively, read the whole thread and post your thoughts and contribution. Usually yours are thoughts and considerations worth reading!