Any advice please kryptonite won't work my bike was stripped

Mission_uk

Hello all

I need some advice please

I locked my bike to a small lamppost with my kryptonite series's 4 d lock
Came back after 5 mins and they key would not work

Was working wen I locked the bike up

I try'd everything no luck so I decided to walk back home as I had 2 spare keys I thought I try them out

Came back still no luck,I tried to straighten the cylinders inside the lock as mentioned on kryptonites web site, still nothing

I didn't want to leave the bike ther as it was not a nice part of east London to leave a bike  on the corner of a main road 

And I knw it's not super expensive bike but I still paid money for it and for all the upgrades as it is the only bike I have to get me around

Anyhow....

I decided ther was nothin I can do and had to leave it ther,so I took of the from wheel Qr, as I was going away for 2 days 

And walked home,on the  way I bumped into some police officers and asked them for some advice,and wer not very helpful at all,if anything I asked them could I remove the sign on the lamp post and lift the bike over that way at least I could take it home,they said they would arrest me for criminal damage 

I spoke to my local council if they could help me remove the sign of the lamp post,no help there

I emaild kryptonite explaining my problem they said to me to get the bike lock removed by a locksmith ect,and send the lock and keys and a copy of the bill they will pay for it..

Now my problem is I jus came back after 2 days as I was away,I thought let me go check on the bike 

And holy sh*t some tossers has stripped the bike down to the bare frame like I meen not evev a bolt was left they took everything 

It's jus the frame and the pedals siting on the floor

I contacted the police and they gave me a ref number and was told that the police won't come down to have a look but they will phone you..

Now I feel if the bike lock worked as it suppose to this wouldn't of happend After all it was a new lock only bought it about 2/3 months ago

Can I tell krytonite this or will they tell me to piss of?

Any adivce I would be great full  sorry for the rant but I'm really peed off

Thank you in advance 

Here's a pic of the bike when I left it ..will take a pic tomm wen I goto get the dlock removed

nicklouse

You got done. Bet here was something added to the lock when you were away.

Shit appends.

MarcBC

An old fashioned trick of thieves was to put superglue in the locks tfor exactly this purpose.

diy

Sadly plod would have been wrong to arrest you for criminal damage. You would have had a text book defence under section 5 of the criminal damage act. Silly plod. Never ask a copper about the law, they are mostly clueless.

There are two scenarios where criminal damage may be lawful.
- where the person believed the owner would consent in the circumstances
- where the damage was done to protect property.

I'm not sure you have any major recourse against the lock manufacturer, as you didn't really mitigate your losses. They may do something out of good will though. Worth a try and better than a poke in the eye.

Mission_uk

Thank you for the replys, I didn't know that about the section 5.hopefully there won't be a next time but if there is then I know not to waste time

Mission_uk

:shock:

IBISMojoHDamon

First point

Harsh... I feel your pain.... But it does beg the question, if it was a not so good area, why did you lock it there in the first place?

Second point

Makes me wonder why the Five O don't lock a bike up and record it on camera to catch these nasty people... They do it with honeypot car's... Surely this would help them up their hit rates and bust scores?

Mission_uk

hello mate

thing is went to get haircut,ilocked the bike up right out side the shop with big glass windows so the only time it was out of sight was when i was getting my hair cut.max 10minz i was in ther,plus if any one was tampering with it someone in the shop would of seen and said somthing,been going ther along time

ther was no glue or any other tampering with the lock as i checked,the key would not go in all the way but it would turn like normal in the unlocking position ,but would not release the u lock kicked it pulled yanked it everyone had a ago.

ther is cctv on that bit right across the rd ,i mentioned that to the police ,but the guy over the phone said to me that the police wont come down to have a look,they will call me..i got a phone call today from a unkown number im guessing it was them ,they rang 3 bells and put thephone down before i could even answer,

well at least they didnt damage the frame in anyway but they must of taken ther fine time taking eveything off on a main rd.

im jus angry at the fact,that this was my main form of transport,and its going to cost alot to put back togther,,im better of buying a new/used bike with money wich i dont have to spare

EyesintheSky

IBISMojoHDamon wrote:

Second point

Makes me wonder why the Five O don't lock a bike up and record it on camera to catch these nasty people... They do it with honeypot car's... Surely this would help them up their hit rates and bust scores?

They do: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... bait-bikes

IBISMojoHDamon

EyesintheSky wrote:

IBISMojoHDamon wrote:

Second point

Makes me wonder why the Five O don't lock a bike up and record it on camera to catch these nasty people... They do it with honeypot car's... Surely this would help them up their hit rates and bust scores?

They do: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... bait-bikes

Doesn't the thought of it being classed as illegal or a form of entrapment not P*ss you right off?... Even the tw&t that took a bike on the way home from the pub... It's still theft and he should still get prosecuted... Imagine it was a bus / car / motorbike.... theft is still theft.....

Why do the Police not lock up a honey trap bike like a real person would do?... Surely leaving it unlocked leaves them wide open for the criminal to say it was an opportunist theft even if an honest person would always walk past an unlocked bike.

I'm almost tempted to take my bike into my town and lock it to a lampost outside a cafe / coffee shop to see if anyone tries to take it then come out with a digital camera (read baseball bat or paintball gun) :0)

diy

I can see the argument against an unlocked bike. In fact you'd be on dodgy ground making the case for theft. But there are very few legal justification for taking a locked bike. e.g. Its locked to your property.

Since city bike theft is largely big industrialised crime I reckon plod would catch all sorts of other crimes too.

McWulf

Agree with the superglue theory.

Also beware any builders or other trades in your home. We lost 2 mtbs last year just after we had some work done. OK, they weren't locked but they were in a locked garage. B@stards also nicked my garden hose.

IBISMojoHDamon

McWulf wrote:

B@stards also nicked my garden hose.

That's just out of order!!!!... The Caaaants!!!!

Andy B

All of the bait bikes in our area are locked, they have to be locked or the police cannot prosecute the thieves once they catch them, which is 99% of the time judging by what the officers on that team were telling me.

Mission_uk

just a small update i managed to get the lock cut off and get back what was left of my bike.
i was thinking off jus buying a new/used bike,but a mate gave me some wheels,front forks,and a pair off BB5's to get me started,all i need now is some shifters front/back derailer,stem and bar
so if any one has any spare or any going cheap please let me know not looking for anything top end,just to get me back on the road

any help will be greatfull

and thank you all

nicklouse

how did you get the lock off?

Giraffoto

They're not that difficult to get off, it's just that the methods tend to get people's attention. I've had to help remove one with hand tools (mate lost the key) and we took turns cutting it off with a tungsten carbide blade in an ordinary hacksaw - took about half an hour - and another mate bought a bike in a police auction that had a Citadel lock still on it: that succumbed to an angle grinder in about a minute.

Far easier to squirt glue in it while you're pretending to do up a shoelace

weeksy59

I've got 4 sets of bars and grips here mate, send me your address and let me know your preference.

Giant wide Flat bars
Commencal mid riser 615mm
Bionicon 650 riser (you can only borrow these though)
Funn riser 710mm.

I'll throw a set of grips on and send you any you like FoC.

p44cmb

weeksy59 wrote:

I've got 4 sets of bars and grips here mate, send me your address and let me know your preference.

Giant wide Flat bars
Commencal mid riser 615mm
Bionicon 650 riser (you can only borrow these though)
Funn riser 710mm.

I'll throw a set of grips on and send you any you like FoC.

Now that's the type of "community spirit" I like to see on a forum. Much Much better than the sadly more commonplace case of keyboard warriors / trolls / members of some elite forum clique slating someone for posting something they thought was worthy.

Good work Weeksy I doff my cap to you.

YeehaaMcgee

weeksy59 wrote:

I've got 4 sets of bars and grips here mate, send me your address and let me know your preference.

Giant wide Flat bars
Commencal mid riser 615mm
Bionicon 650 riser (you can only borrow these though)
Funn riser 710mm.

I'll throw a set of grips on and send you any you like FoC.

^^Hats off to this fella - top bloke!

Onthe article about "entrapment":

One Cambridge University student recounted leaving a local nightclub after a few drinks and thinking it would be a good idea to "borrow" an unlocked cycle he spotted nearby

A thief's a frikkin thief. Doesn't care how easy it was to steal something, the fact remains you shouldn't have stolen it in the first place.
Is entrapment even a viable legal defence in this country?

IBISMojoHDamon

I got a Bontrager stem you can have FoC... It's not expensive but it's no good to me.

BigJimmyB

I've got nowt in the spares dept to help you - sorry, but good luck.
And chapeau to weeksy!

diy

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

A thief's a frikkin thief. Doesn't care how easy it was to steal something, the fact remains you shouldn't have stolen it in the first place.
Is entrapment even a viable legal defence in this country?

I totally agree, but you need to show dishonest intent and the intention to permanently deprive to get a conviction for theft.

A person could take an unlocked bike and keep it in safe keeping for the owner or with the intention of reporting it as found lost property to the police. Obviously not an easy story to believe but it could be true.

Entrapment by agents of the state is an abuse of process, which can stay proceedings. It has to be more than presenting an opportunity though, they have to encourage you to do the crime.

see : http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/in-practice ... entrapment

Leaving a unlocked bike is not about entrapment its about meeting the test of theft as per my note above.

Theft is defined as dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; google Theft act or see http://www.lawteacher.net/PDF/TA%201968.pdf

neil_sheehan2000

I feel your pain mate, a very similar thing happened to me:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10002&t=12623795&hilit=steal

I must admit that it never even occurred to me to ask the police's permission to start dismantling road signs- I just did it. I know it's been pointed out above that this would not be criminal damage, but how could plod even think that it would be when you can put the thing back together again without actually damaging it?

snig

diy wrote:

Sadly plod would have been wrong to arrest you for criminal damage. You would have had a text book defence under section 5 of the criminal damage act. Silly plod. Never ask a copper about the law, they are mostly clueless.

There are two scenarios where criminal damage may be lawful.
- where the person believed the owner would consent in the circumstances
- where the damage was done to protect property.

I'm not sure you have any major recourse against the lock manufacturer, as you didn't really mitigate your losses. They may do something out of good will though. Worth a try and better than a poke in the eye.

I agree the police could have been more helpful but the two points you list where criminal damage may be lawful, do not apply in this case,the owner was asked and did not consent to removing the sign and the bike was not being damaged by the sign or because it was locked to the sign.It would be a crazy law if that was the case that public property could be damaged because someone lost their lock key etc

diy

Read section 5 again. in particular section 5 (3) For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.

He does not need permission, he just needs to believe that in the circumstances permission would be given. Secondly I'm assuming the sign would have been reattached after at the expense of the OP.

his mistake was to ask.

This is the same law that allows people to remove private clampers wheel clamps.

damage to property does not equal criminal damage. In addition it does not excuse the person from a claim for damages.

blablablacksheep

If i was you i would of removed the sign if it was possible to then put it back again.

The police couldnt of arrested you for criminal damage as like another person has said you need "intent" to go with it.

Also the CPS would never even bother to try and press charges for such a case as the cost of doing so vs the chance of a judge ruleing in their favor would be 0.

Tbh somone should of told you to just cutt the lock off, then send a bill to kryptonite as they do replace locks if they are faulty and the owner needs to remove them.(its part of their brand, if your bike gets nicked with their locks on it they pay for new bike ect)

hope you get it sorted out, best advice personally is try claim through the small claims , as victims of crime can claim for compensation, and given the police and local gov didnt lift a finger or advice you then pretty sure you have a good case.

snig

diy wrote:

Read section 5 again. in particular section 5 (3) For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.

He does not need permission, he just needs to believe that in the circumstances permission would be given. Secondly I'm assuming the sign would have been reattached after at the expense of the OP.

his mistake was to ask.

This is the same law that allows people to remove private clampers wheel clamps.

damage to property does not equal criminal damage. In addition it does not excuse the person from a claim for damages.

point is he did ask and was turned down.

That law is there for when public property is the cause of the damage or if not damaging the public property would cause damage to a person or your property because of the public property,you seem to be totally discounting the thief's part in this situation,it was a he that was the cause of the damage here,and that is assuming we are calling thieft of property "damage"op even stated the frame was not damaged but the parts taken.A kid getting his head stuck in a railing,or even a bike getting stuck but like I said no way was the sign causing or would ever have caused damage to the bike here,a thief did the "damage" not the sign.your take on the law would give a licence to robbers,all they would have to do to break into puplic property and get away with it is lock a few bikes to the outside and throw away the keys...!

the clamp removing is different in it was put on your car by a 3rd person and is preventing you removing your property,you can remove the clamp but not damage it,if you damage it then you could be arrested,you really shouldn't be giving that as an example because most people know clamps can not be damaged in removing them, how this helps your argument on public damage is lost on me,seems the 3rd person putting the clamp on the car has gone the same way as the theif,doesn't fit the argument so is left out.

timpop

I feel the pain too. Some ass stole my Avid Carbon brakes once :evil: . I didn't notice until I reached for the brakes on approaching a road (just heading out). Nothing. Quick turn and into a hedge. :P
I have a basic stem you can have too if the Bontrager stem doesn't work out with the angle or length. I'll check the dimensions later.
Tim

diy

Snig, he asked plod, who had no authority to authorise or otherwise the removal of the sign since they were not the owners of the sign. He later asked the council who could also not help him. My point is he was incorrectly discouraged from removing the sign to free his bike, because plod told him he would be arrested for Criminal Damage. Had they found him removing the sign and asked him to stop and account they would have been told that he was removing the sign to free his bike because his lock had stuck and didn't think anyone would mind as long as he put the sign back after. That is the basis of a lawful excuse defence.

A person's "right" to remove a wheel clamp is not dependent on how much damage they cause or otherwise its dependent on them meeting the requirements of a lawful excuse.

I don't want to derail this thread going on about criminal damage. My point is plod were wrong to take the view that unauthorised damage is criminal damage. If I thought letter of complaint would help, I'd suggest it, but I don't think it would and I don't think the OP has any claim against plod for giving them bad advice.

snig

diy,I agree the police could have helped more,I was once pulled of my bike by two men and tried to steal it,luckly someone stopped and helped me and called the police,the guys drove of but we got their number,police amazingly told me 2 days later they didn't go to the registered keep of the car as the car was old so probably was sold on at some point so may not be the corrct address and if that wasn't enough they added it was in the next town anyway so was too far to go lol,so I know about police help.
I was just pointing out when you stated the OP had a right to remove the sign and quoting section 5,the fact is that law doesnt apply in this case so quoting it may cause someone reading this to get into trouble,you dont even know what the sign was,if a road sign removing it even for a short time could cause more harm and just because you are willing to either fix the sign or pay for any damage doesn't stop it being a crime,I can't go a smash a wall down and not get in trouble bacause I am willing to fix it later,thats like beating someone up and saying here a hundred quid for some plasters,fact you don't want to accept is you were wrong on both counts,he was refused permission to remove the sign and the sign was not causing his property to be damaged,all the OP had to do was call a locksmith,if the police failed in anything here it was not helping him phone one.