Are we our own worst enemy?
Comments
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Can't wait till we all get BF3 style minimaps displayed on our HUD glasses.davmaggs wrote:jds_1981 wrote:Nope, think they should fix the design flaw. Not sure what you think is inflammatory about pointing out something shouldn't be used if not fit for purpose?
All vehicles, including you on your bicycle have blind spots.
These cannot be designed out completely so it will always be down to each road user to appreciate and anticipate what others are doing, and to read the clues they are being given.0 -
mar_k wrote:BigMat wrote:If the lorry's blind spot is that massive, should it really be allowed onto the road? I mean, it wouldn't take anything that radical to massively reduce the blindspot. All you'd need would be a couple of mirrors at differing angles so that the driver had a wider range of rear vision. I appreciate that the driver only has one set of eyes, but he could then select the appropriate mirror for what should be a slow speed manoeuvre and would have sight of all those cyclists. I don't think its good enough to just accept that lorry drivers are practically driving with their eyes closed - for them or us.
I am hgv1 driver ( artics ) so I can explain
Unfortunately the blindspot on the near side is that big,
Once the lorry starts turning all you can see is the side of the trailer and nothing down it,
They are safe to drive on the road however in my experience Car drivers and cyclists will squeeze themselfs into any gap they can with no thought to their own safety or even how they are affecting others.
I have been in that exact dilema that the poster shows.
Im sat at a set of lights, straddling both lanes, which helps me position the truck which allows me to get round the corner and also stops cars on my off side putting them selfs in a dangerous position.
However in doing this I have a larger gap on the near side ( kerb side ) which cyclists tend to slide down.
Some times I have already started my turn and already have the front turnt down the road I want to go down and I will just catch a glimpse of a cyclist who wasn't there before I started the turn.
I really think cyclists need educating more on the way some vehicles have to move.
I have lost count of the times Im given abuse for taking up 2 lanes even though it is the only way to take some corners and it also the way you are taught.
At the end of the day I have undergone a training course and taken a test which allows me to drive the vehicle in a safe and controlled manner, but any idiot can jump on a bike and become their own worst enemy and think they know it all.
Im not saying all lorry drivers are good and take care because that would be a lie,
But the good out weigh the bad.
Cyclists need to take responsibility for their own safety and think alittle more about where they postition themselfs
Please dont think I am anti cyclist as Im not,
I am massively for the cyclist and try to defend them when this topic crops up in our tea room however there are some people on bikes who just don't seem aware or situations they are putting them selfs in
Cheers for that. For the record, I'm not "having a pop" at HGV drivers. I just think that if there are steps that could be taken to reduce that blindspot then surely it would be in the interests of everybody involved. And frankly, I find it unacceptable that there could be such a large blindspot. Maybe in the turning scenario it isn't possible to have a mirror angled to pick up the blind spot, in which case maybe a camera could be fitted, with a dash mounted screen.
Obviously, cyclists shouldn't ride in to that zone, but sometimes it will happen even to experienced cyclists when stuck in congested traffic etc.0 -
BigMat wrote:Cheers for that. For the record, I'm not "having a pop" at HGV drivers. I just think that if there are steps that could be taken to reduce that blindspot then surely it would be in the interests of everybody involved. And frankly, I find it unacceptable that there could be such a large blindspot. Maybe in the turning scenario it isn't possible to have a mirror angled to pick up the blind spot, in which case maybe a camera could be fitted, with a dash mounted screen.
Obviously, cyclists shouldn't ride in to that zone, but sometimes it will happen even to experienced cyclists when stuck in congested traffic etc.
My point exactly.
I accept I have blind spots even while cycling. I am however able to check there's nothing to my side when I'm turning that way.FCN 9 || FCN 50 -
And I think the problem is some people (regardless of vehicle) think that they should not be held up by others. ie lack of consideration for others.notsoblue wrote:
Well, I think the problem is that we have to share the same space.MonkeyMonster wrote:How can we get to the point whereby cars respect our space and we respect theirs?
The problem is simple, it is the solution that is difficult.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
notsoblue wrote:
Can't wait till we all get BF3 style minimaps displayed on our HUD glasses.davmaggs wrote:jds_1981 wrote:Nope, think they should fix the design flaw. Not sure what you think is inflammatory about pointing out something shouldn't be used if not fit for purpose?
All vehicles, including you on your bicycle have blind spots.
These cannot be designed out completely so it will always be down to each road user to appreciate and anticipate what others are doing, and to read the clues they are being given.
How many pedestrians do you have to mow down to unlock the 'road radar' upgrade?FCN - 10
Cannondale Bad Boy Solo with baggies.0 -
I have taken a few pictures today which I will upload later, But Id like to take some more when I get the time with a friend sat on a bike next to my truck to show the main area's that are problamatic.
My advice to all cyclists would be,
Ask your self 2 questions when your next to any vehicle but mainly larger ones.
1) can the driver see me? Good way to determine this- CAN YOU SEE THE DRIVER?
2) am I safe?
If the answer to either or both is no then please move to some where else.
I know some have mentiond the point of who was there first, the cyclist or the truck.
In the instance of the truck pulling upto the lights and the cyclists already being there, then the driver of the truck should have seen them on approach and give them enough room and time to get away from the lights before moving off.
If the truck was there 1st and a cyclist has slid down the side then the driver may have missed them doing so.
It is possible to see pretty much the whole way along most of the time but its when you are at a 90degree angle that it becomes a problem.
the main blindspot is next to the passenger door directly below the mirror and just ahead of the mirror so the passenger front corner.
Im going to position a friend on a bike in those two area's and take pics to show how bad it is.
The trucks are perfectly safe in town, I often drive in central london in an artic,
I really do feel that some kind of basic cycle training should be enforced to people who wish to cycle on the road.
That said I know there are bad HGV drivers out there who 'HATE' cyclists, but if cycling standards rise then perhaps some of this 'HATE' for cyclists will pass.
Oh and not sure who mentioned it but to drive a 7.5t lorry you must now take a test, The entitlement is no longer given to people who pass a car tests0 -
Ok so I have a few pictures here, which to be fair are not great as I couldn't get the truck
into a good position due to lack of space so I will take more using a friend on a bike.
so here is the 1st pic to show you the truck I drive, Take note of the passenger door.
Cycles can pull up next to the truck and sit below the mirror well out of sight
Also just by the front corner of the truck would make them difficult to see.
this is my view from the drivers seat, notice the mirror on the front of the truck which allows me to see any people of cyclists in front on the truck.
This is the truck turning left, although I wasn't able to get the right position to show exactly what I mean,
If you look at the top mirror you'll notice this is a wide angle mirror which give a better view of whats down the side of the truck, some times when your turning this is the mirror you rely on but there are certain angles when this is of no use and you are 'Blind'.
I hope these pics give you an idea of what we are up against, I will get better pics with a friend and place the bike in positions where it can't be seen and take pics in the cab and outside to show both views.
Edited; None of the above matters for the drivers side as you have the option to stick your head out the window to improve vision
One thing I have noticed today whilst thinking of this, most wide angle mirrors are fitted below the main mirror and in my oppinion these are less affective than the mirrors like mine fitted at the top.
I do think truck makers need to consider where they place external mirrors as there is deffinately room for improvement0 -
I drive a large box van round manchester most days of the week, i've seen my fair share of cyclists get knocked off through drivers cutting them up.
However i've also seen a fair amount of cyclists needlessly putting themselves in peoples blindspots, running red lights etc then moan when they nearly get knocked off.
The way I work with the left hand turning situation is whoever was there first has the right of way regardless, I have to admit to shitting the odd cyclist up just to keep them on their toes
I also see a lot riding round with headphones in, you gotta have a sixth sense to stay in once piece on the roads, taking away one of your senses is shear stupidity.
Having said all this pedestrians are worse, some of them have a genuine death wish especially in city centres!0 -
philsmin wrote:The way I work with the left hand turning situation is whoever was there first has the right of way regardless, I have to admit to ******** the odd cyclist up just to keep them on their toes
I disagree with the above comment, As a professional driver you should give way to the vulnerable who may not actualy know they are in the wrong,
Its attitudes like this that give HGV drivers a bad name and is also the type who will one day kill a cyclist.
I guess when people run across the road in front of you, you speed up?0 -
mar_k wrote:philsmin wrote:The way I work with the left hand turning situation is whoever was there first has the right of way regardless, I have to admit to ******** the odd cyclist up just to keep them on their toes
I disagree with the above comment, As a professional driver you should give way to the vulnerable who may not actualy know they are in the wrong,
Its attitudes like this that give HGV drivers a bad name and is also the type who will one day kill a cyclist.
I guess when people run across the road in front of you, you speed up?
I wouldn't knock a cyclist off their bike or run a pedestrian over purposely!, what i'm saying is whoever is there first should have right of way, if someone pulls up the inside of a vehicle that has already indicated that it's turning left that's a pretty stupid thing to do, when riding a bike, walking or driving a car assume everybody is out to kill you and you won't go far wrong.
My nan (who commuted on a bike for many years) said if it's bigger than you assume it has right of way! She lived till 88 0 -
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UndercoverElephant wrote:Mar_k, genuine thanks for posting those. Excellent work.
Not a problem,
We all need to try and make cycling safer and if I am able to help people understand more we may just be able to find some neutral ground and assist each other.
I will get better pictures as said already and show exactly how certain positions make bikes impossibly to see.
Main thing for cyclists to remember is, If you cant see the driver the chances are......... he would not be able to see you!0 -
+1UndercoverElephant wrote:Mar_k, genuine thanks for posting those. Excellent work.
Pictures that really explain something we'll never visualise from words.Regards
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Thanks mar_k - very interesting. There are a lot of good HGV drivers out there - I came across one tonight in a big Royal Mail HGV who overtook me on the South Circular but hung back until there was a wide enough spot to do so and gave me lots of room... and then performed the same courtesy to another cyclist a couple of hundred metres down the road.
Having said that, the two 'close shaves' that I've had with HGVs both involved them coming from behind me and changing lanes from the outside to the inside lane. They should both have seen me but in both instances, it was only me braking and pulling into the kerb that stopped me being under their rearmost wheels.0 -
That was me. I realise that's the case now, but I don't know when it changed. I'm 43 and have on occasion driven 7.5tonners, I probably will again. If I have the entitlement anyone who got a licence before me, and a good few after, will do too. That's a lot of people with no training in anything bigger than a Datsun Sunny.mar_k wrote:Oh and not sure who mentioned it but to drive a 7.5t lorry you must now take a test, The entitlement is no longer given to people who pass a car tests
Good work on the pictures. I'm well aware of how little you can see from smaller trucks so it's definitely good for others to be made aware. Well done.0 -
lardboy wrote:More realistic:
Except the text should read:
"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"
He he, subtle bit of photoshopping there! Didn't spot it immediately.0 -
UndercoverElephant wrote:Mar_k, genuine thanks for posting those. Excellent work.
Seconded. Excellent posts, thanks for taking the time to put those together.
For what it's worth my personal experience of HGV drivers is that on the whole they tend to be amongst the better road users and seem to be far more aware of cyclists.Bianchi C2C - Ritte Bosberg - Cervelo R3
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Veronese68 wrote:
That was me. I realise that's the case now, but I don't know when it changed. I'm 43 and have on occasion driven 7.5tonners, I probably will again. If I have the entitlement anyone who got a licence before me, and a good few after, will do too. That's a lot of people with no training in anything bigger than a Datsun Sunny.mar_k wrote:Oh and not sure who mentioned it but to drive a 7.5t lorry you must now take a test, The entitlement is no longer given to people who pass a car tests
I got my licence in 1996 and have the entitlement to drive 7.5t. Pretty sure the they changed it just after that as my driving instructer tried to hurry me through my test for that very reason.
Stands to reason I've never had call to drive anything over a LWB transit but even that is a hell of a difference over a standard car when manoeuvring.
Norwich isn't that bad for heavy traffic but I must say I get a lot more hassle from White Van Man and regular cars than I do from lorry drivers, who in the main seem to be aware of how big they are and give enough room accordingly.0 -
Quite.Topaxci wrote:... I must say I get a lot more hassle from White Van Man and regular cars than I do from lorry drivers, who in the main seem to be aware of how big they are and give enough room accordingly.
I get more hassle from women in large people carriers and 4x4s.*
*Obvious generalisation.
Actually, let me redefine that. I get more frequent hassle from women. The less frequent but more serious hassle comes from irate males.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
in regards to HGV and cyclists, i recently was on one of them bike safe events the met do, and you had a chance to sit in a cab of a lorry to view what exactly they could and could not see, which really highlighted the issues mar_k said regarding his mirrors. The Police office did say that some lorry manufacturers were looking at having sensors on the side of the cab to highlight to the driver that someone is next to you, which would be fine on a country road, but in a city or a busy town the driver would be more peed off with the constant beeping from the sensor and would I guess find a way to turn it off.Sorry its not me it's the bike ;o)
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