Are we our own worst enemy?

PO Paul

Riding into work this morning, northbound on City Road, by Moorgate. I'm approaching a set of lights and I see a white van already at the lights with its left indicator on, so I slow down and pull up behind it. A few seconds later a couple of cyclists squeeze between the van and the kerb. The lights turn green, the cyclists appear to dither a bit and the van doesn't move, then it does. The first cyclist starts banging on the side of the van and shouting.
I can't make my mind up on this one, yes the van driver should have seen the cyclists and taken appropriate action, i.e. waited until the more vulnerable road users had moved. But then the cyclists shouldn't have been there in the first place. The van was indicating whilst waiting at the lights and there wasn't really room for them on the left of the van, so why didn't they wait.
I've seen numerous incidents similar to this recently and can't understand why some of us can't just wait a second or two, it would surely make for a smoother ride and be more stress free and less dangerous.

:?:

iPete

Happens all the time, especially along embankment.

If I was driving in London and making a left turn I'd squeeze the curb. I'd piss of a few of the 'must get near the front' crowd but it'd save them from their own stupidity.

See something like this most days..

daviesee

Some are.

Unfortunately for the rest of us. :evil:

suzyb

iPete wrote:

Happens all the time, especially along embankment.

If I was driving in London and making a left turn I'd squeeze the curb. I'd wee-wee of a few of the 'must get near the front' crowd but it'd save them from their own stupidity.

See something like this most days..

I didn't realise the blind spot was quite that big :shock:

roger_merriman

PO Paul wrote:

Riding into work this morning, northbound on City Road, by Moorgate. I'm approaching a set of lights and I see a white van already at the lights with its left indicator on, so I slow down and pull up behind it. A few seconds later a couple of cyclists squeeze between the van and the kerb. The lights turn green, the cyclists appear to dither a bit and the van doesn't move, then it does. The first cyclist starts banging on the side of the van and shouting.
I can't make my mind up on this one, yes the van driver should have seen the cyclists and taken appropriate action, i.e. waited until the more vulnerable road users had moved. But then the cyclists shouldn't have been there in the first place. The van was indicating whilst waiting at the lights and there wasn't really room for them on the left of the van, so why didn't they wait.
I've seen numerous incidents similar to this recently and can't understand why some of us can't just wait a second or two, it would surely make for a smoother ride and be more stress free and less dangerous.

:?:

it's not unique to cyclists, it seems to be the way urban folks think i.e. they do their best to ignore every one.

i.e. fairly selfish driving/riding tends to slow them and others as well.

lardboy

More realistic:


Except the text should read:

"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"

jonomc4

I have since I was hit by a driver making a right turn (therefore 100% his fault and he was done for careless driving) been very concious of how I act on the roads - not only out of personal safety but mostly because I am very concious now of how cyclists are perceived by drivers. If they like us they are far more likely to consider us and drive with care around us.

In the example of the above - generally because it is my commute route I have an idea of the amount of time I have to move to the front of a queue. I try to get to the front as it is the safest place to be - but if the lights change to green whilst I am moving forward I hold the position I am in at that time in the line of traffic, a big worry for me is assuming that all cars will indicate left so I have no desire to take the risk. If there is no space then I will overtake on the right or just wait.

Cyclist need to be aware that how we act affect how other cyclists are treated! And there are bad cyclists and drivers on the road, not just bad drivers (we just have more to loose if we screw up).

jonny_trousers

lardboy wrote:

More realistic:


Except the text should read:

"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"

Not necessarily. Perhaps the lorry was already there when all those cyclists drew up.

In answer to the OP's question, often, yes we are. I would say well over 50% of the cyclists I see on my daily commute are not road savvy enough to keep themselves safe.

iPete

suzyb wrote:

iPete wrote:

Happens all the time, especially along embankment.

If I was driving in London and making a left turn I'd squeeze the curb. I'd wee-wee of a few of the 'must get near the front' crowd but it'd save them from their own stupidity.

See something like this most days..

I didn't realise the blind spot was quite that big :shock:

I'd highly recommend attending an 'exchanging places' type event to scare the crap out of yourself, it's amazing how little a lorry drivers can see from the cab.

sfichele

PO Paul wrote:

Riding into work this morning, northbound on City Road, by Moorgate. I'm approaching a set of lights and I see a white van already at the lights with its left indicator on, so I slow down and pull up behind it. A few seconds later a couple of cyclists squeeze between the van and the kerb. The lights turn green, the cyclists appear to dither a bit and the van doesn't move, then it does. The first cyclist starts banging on the side of the van and shouting.
I can't make my mind up on this one, yes the van driver should have seen the cyclists and taken appropriate action, i.e. waited until the more vulnerable road users had moved. But then the cyclists shouldn't have been there in the first place. The van was indicating whilst waiting at the lights and there wasn't really room for them on the left of the van, so why didn't they wait.
I've seen numerous incidents similar to this recently and can't understand why some of us can't just wait a second or two, it would surely make for a smoother ride and be more stress free and less dangerous.

:?:

It really bugs me when I see dopey cyclists undertaking stopped cars at traffic lights.
But then stupid ASLs and bike lanes promote this dumb behaviour.

veronese68

lardboy wrote:

More realistic:


Except the text should read:

"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"

Did you read the OP about people riding up the inside of a van that was indicating left? Or are you Brekkie?

TommyEss

After riding on busy roads for a while now, I, like you, would sit behind the van and not shimmy up the inside - the van's given fair warning by stopping correctly at the lights and indicating his intentions - if you were in any other vehicle you'd have to wait - it costs you next to no time because he'll be away and turned by the time you're up to speed - I call out to people now when they do dumb stuff - "watch it he's turning left mate" etc - but I'm ignored at best. I guess if the worst happened I'd happily give evidence apportioning most of the blame to the cyclist in that case - we all have a duty of care on the roads, for ourselves and others, but being that we're the second most vulnerable, we have to keep a big eye out for ourselves.

That lorry picture really makes it clear - it should be rolled out nationwide.

sfichele

I was in a car once. Overtook a bloke cycling. About 200 metres further down the road is a set of traffic lights, which I am going to turn left at, but there are a load of kids in the road so I stop to wait for them. I am clearly indicating left and at this point the cyclists is a long way back!. Once the kids have gone, I start to turn, but the tw@t on the cycle tries to undertake me and slams his brakes on. I also slam my brakes on before, because I've seen him as I had my eye on him for the last 200 metres.

But he starts shouting at me! There are so many dumb cyclists that undertake stationary vehicle at lights - what planet are they on ???

danlikesbikes

As the OP says he rode up to the rear of the van saw it indicating left and did not attempt to undertake. If the other cyclists have paid as much attention they would not have put themselves in that position, plus they would have the added advantage of seeing another cyclist waiting.

I would agree that the van could have waited if say for instance there was an advanced stop line for cycles in front of the van and the second group were attempting to get in front of the van to this, though assume this not to be the case that the OP was waiting correctly behind the van & the safest way to over take a parked van is to over take it.

Just a case of the cyclists not being aware of the danger they were putting themselves in, or being aware of it and basically ignoring it at their own peril. See it all the time on the roads these days.

Monkeypump

suzyb wrote:

iPete wrote:

Happens all the time, especially along embankment.

If I was driving in London and making a left turn I'd squeeze the curb. I'd wee-wee of a few of the 'must get near the front' crowd but it'd save them from their own stupidity.

See something like this most days..

I didn't realise the blind spot was quite that big :shock:

The blind-spot is made worse by the fact that the cab is already part-turned left, so the mirror is effectively pointing into the side of the trailer.

If the lorry was pointing straight forward, the blind spot would be much smaller.

greg66_tri_v2.0

PO Paul wrote:

Riding into work this morning, northbound on City Road, by Moorgate. I'm approaching a set of lights and I see a white van already at the lights with its left indicator on, so I slow down and pull up behind it. A few seconds later a couple of cyclists squeeze between the van and the kerb. The lights turn green, the cyclists appear to dither a bit and the van doesn't move, then it does. The first cyclist starts banging on the side of the van and shouting.
I can't make my mind up on this one, yes the van driver should have seen the cyclists and taken appropriate action, i.e. waited until the more vulnerable road users had moved. But then the cyclists shouldn't have been there in the first place. The van was indicating whilst waiting at the lights and there wasn't really room for them on the left of the van, so why didn't they wait.
I've seen numerous incidents similar to this recently and can't understand why some of us can't just wait a second or two, it would surely make for a smoother ride and be more stress free and less dangerous.

:?:

Similar for me this morning. I drove in.

Two lanes at the lights. Left lane has a left only arrow on the road. I'm at the front of the left lane on a red light with nothing in front of me.

Two cyclists pull up behind me and wait on my nearside 3/4. A third cyclist pulls up, pauses, then squeezes between them and kerb, and then squeezes between me and the kerb with one foot on the kerb.

As he draws level with my front nearside wheel the lights change. He kicks off the kerb to get going. In the normal world we would both peel left. But spidey sense tells me there's something not quite right, so I don't start to move. Sure enough, once he's got himself out of the narrow gap alongside me and starts to pedal, he goes straight on.

All this time the cyclists who had been patient enough to wait behind me are being held up by me not being able to move until this guy had got clear of my bonnet.

I'm sympathetic to cyclists, and even I found it pretty irritating.

daviesee

Danlikesbikes wrote:

....I would agree that the van could have waited if say for instance there was an advanced stop line for cycles in front of the van and the second group were attempting to get in front of the van to this....

And this is exactly why ASLs are a stupid idea.
How do you safely get into them in the first place :?:

veronese68

daviesee wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

....I would agree that the van could have waited if say for instance there was an advanced stop line for cycles in front of the van and the second group were attempting to get in front of the van to this....

And this is exactly why ASLs are a stupid idea.
How do you safely get into them in the first place :?:

illegally, by filtering on the right where it's safer. Hmmm...

sfichele

sfichele wrote:

It really bugs me when I see dopey cyclists undertaking stopped cars at traffic lights.
But then stupid ASLs and bike lanes promote this dumb behaviour.

daviesee wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

....I would agree that the van could have waited if say for instance there was an advanced stop line for cycles in front of the van and the second group were attempting to get in front of the van to this....

And this is exactly why ASLs are a stupid idea.
How do you safely get into them in the first place :?:

I'm not keen on ASLs and bike lanes since they can promote bad cycling for the unaware/noob cyclist. They suck you in to undertake stationary vehicles at lights, which can be especially bad during those dangerous few seconds when the lights are changing and you are still trying to get to the front

keyser__soze

Veronese68 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

How do you safely get into them in the first place :?:

illegally, by filtering on the right where it's safer. Hmmm...

Which can also be a bit hairy when it's multi-lane, the lights change and you're squeezed between two vehicles setting off, particularly if one of them swings right before going left or decides they actually are going straight on and using the left-turn lane to jump the queue. I'd like to see more filtering lanes between left-turn-only lanes and straight-on lanes to allow cycles to move forward safely.

I'm not one for hanging around on my commute but I am shocked at the number of cyclists who will pass me as I'm stood behind a left-turning vehicle and squeeze up the inside, frequently just as the lights are changing to green. One of the worst spots is the junction of Upper Thames St and Southwark Bridge, and it's inevitably the more experienced cyclists who hold back or hang to the right if they're going straight on whereas the nodders plough on regardless.

Aidy

daviesee wrote:

And this is exactly why ASLs are a stupid idea.
How do you safely get into them in the first place :?:

It's bloody hard, there's always a bus/taxi/van/fleet of motorcyclists in it.

mudcow007

daviesee wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

....I would agree that the van could have waited if say for instance there was an advanced stop line for cycles in front of the van and the second group were attempting to get in front of the van to this....

And this is exactly why ASLs are a stupid idea.
How do you safely get into them in the first place :?:

+100,000!!

keyser__soze

I guess the only way to be 'safe' and blameless is to stop at the end of the queue of traffic, take the lane so cars etc can't squeeze next to you, move off only when traffic in front of you moves and do no filtering or over/undertaking at all. Expect your rush hour journey times to close-on double. People aren't going to do this and I personally find junctions with cycle lanes and ASLs safer than those without. Sure, for others it lulls them into a false sense of security and entitlement but that's an education issue.

lardboy

Veronese68 wrote:

lardboy wrote:

More realistic:
Except the text should read:

"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"

Did you read the OP about people riding up the inside of a van that was indicating left? Or are you Brekkie?

Read it all, saw that someone had posted the propaganda poster, and posted my response. Traffic is a constantly changing beast, and a still shot can be read in different ways. Both of these are valid interpretations of the image.

In the OP's case, the cyclist was at fault, but I have seen numerous cases where cyclists have had to take evasive action because of badly designed cycle lanes and lorries being too aggressive.

On a side note, banning HGVs from London roads during rush hours would be a massive improvement in cyclist safety, but is unlikely to ever happen thanks to the building lobby being so much stronger than the cyclist one.

keyser__soze

I think it's more related to the ban on HGVs/deliveries outside of 'social' hours for residential noise reduction than the building lobby.

davmaggs

Monkeypump wrote:

The blind-spot is made worse by the fact that the cab is already part-turned left, so the mirror is effectively pointing into the side of the trailer.

If the lorry was pointing straight forward, the blind spot would be much smaller.

I hold a HGV licence so I can explain what the lorry is doing.

It physically cannot make that left turn by not part turning in advance, and what the driver has rightly done is to straddle the two lanes so that he saves cars (from themselves) from trying to sneak into either lane and importantly when he makes the turn his wheels won't run over the pavement and kill people. Or if he didn't part turn and tried to avoid killing pedestrians then the front of the vehicle would swing out into oncoming traffic or destroy a traffic island.

Also the part turn of the cab tells everyone (except for the idiots on the bikes it seems) what he is going to be doing next, along with the indicators.

When I did my test it seemed like a spoof training video at times. I had kids doing dares and just walking out into the road to get the truck to scream to a stop, people carrying planks over crossings (sadly not a comedy sheet of glass) and bikes not even stopping at junctions and coming straight out in front of the wheels. It was terror at times and unbelievable what risks people took for no reward other than 20 seconds of time.

davmaggs

Keyser__Soze wrote:

I think it's more related to the ban on HGVs/deliveries outside of 'social' hours for residential noise reduction than the building lobby.

+1 Supermarkets put a lot of effort into scheduling the arrival of goods to avoid upsetting residents.

Also construction lorries don't just deliver stuff, they also take things away which means you'd enter up with people working in the dark and making a massive racket as they use other machines to load and unload, and working under lights means that it is likely that more people would be killed than saved on the roads. Plus mixed concrete cannot be piled up until the morning.

lardboy

Keyser__Soze wrote:

I think it's more related to the ban on HGVs/deliveries outside of 'social' hours for residential noise reduction than the building lobby.

These type of accidents tend not to happen on residential streets.

Ben6899

lardboy wrote:

More realistic:


Except the text should read:

"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"

Well done. You've just ensured that I'll ignore your next 10 posts.

Pufftmw

I think its Bywaters in the orange skip trucks whom I've found to be really switched on when it comes to turning left. Their cab also scream out "Lorry Turning Left! Lorry Turning Left!" or somesuch - wish all truck companies were that good, well done.

lardboy

Ben6899 wrote:

lardboy wrote:

More realistic:
Except the text should read:

"This lorry has just arrived and placed all of these cyclists in danger"

Well done. You've just ensured that I'll ignore your next 10 posts.

Excellent addition to the thread. Thanks for your input.