What £450 AM wheelset?
cat_with_no_tail
Posts: 12,981
Answer me!
Top of the list is currently the XTR Trail M988 wheelset.
I want (in order of importance):
15mm Front, X12 Rear (142 x 12mm)
£450 tops
Strong
Light (for a guide, the XTRs are 1,650g)
smooth rolling
Orange bits
Before all the usual suspects come out of the woodwork, I've not had great experiences with cup & cone before either.
HOWEVER, I'm not naive enough to tar all C&C hubs with the same brush and just accept a blanket statement of "cartridge hubs are better". I do accept that cartridges require less fettling, but as I'm not an ape I don't really mind.
Top of the list is currently the XTR Trail M988 wheelset.
I want (in order of importance):
15mm Front, X12 Rear (142 x 12mm)
£450 tops
Strong
Light (for a guide, the XTRs are 1,650g)
smooth rolling
Orange bits
Before all the usual suspects come out of the woodwork, I've not had great experiences with cup & cone before either.
HOWEVER, I'm not naive enough to tar all C&C hubs with the same brush and just accept a blanket statement of "cartridge hubs are better". I do accept that cartridges require less fettling, but as I'm not an ape I don't really mind.
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Comments
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Im having a similar dilemma at the moment. Top of the list for me is superstar hubs(available in orange) on arch ex rims with cx ray spokes. They could probably source some orange nipples if you wanted too.
With alu nipples and the lightest hubs they do weight should be 1530g ish, cost is £400. With the heavier adaptable hubs weight should be roughly 80g more and the price will be cheaper.0 -
Actually, I'd not thought about superstar again. The last set of superstar wheels I had were switch Evo hubs with Flow rims and Sapim race spokes were around 1850g.
940g for flows (x2) vs 800g for the Arch Ex (x2)
380g for 64 SAPIM spokes vs 282g for 64 CX ray spokes (based on average 264mm length)
238g total difference
1,850g - 238g = 1,612g
A very rough way of working it, but gives an identical weight to support your claim.
Only thing is, I'll need to use their X12 conversion kit, which looks VERY heavy.
I did like my old wheels though, they were well built and the shade of orange was good.
I did have to replace their freehub for a steel one though because it was made out of the softest alloy known to man. it was completely chewed by an alloy spidered cassette.0 -
The XTR hubs are superb, and in my opinion, the best freehub available: but are lighter AM sets about such as the American Classics.0
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Ztr hubs, cx-ray spokes and Arch ex's? personally would go pro2 for that budget, but I know you despise hope products
slightly over budget, but a great wheelset for the price!!
http://superlight-bikeparts.de/Tune-Tun ... fradsatz_10 -
It's not that I despise Hope products as such. I've always got along just fine with hope stuff I've owned in the past, I just think it's expensive for what it is. And I despise the noise hope hubs put out
That tune wheelset is quite a bit over budget. As I've now bought an entire bike rather than just painting my old frame, my wheel budget has shrunk somewhat (I had to cancel my order for the I9s
)
The ZTR build comes in at just over £500 too.
Sonic, did you have a specific AM Classic build in mind at this pricepoint that would be lighter?0 -
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Ooo, that's the AM set I'd been looking for and hadn't been able to find them within budget. Cheers fella.
I also like how they come with tape and valve pre-installed. Only a little thing, but saves a few bob and a bit of messing about.
My only problem is that nobody seems to be able to decide how much they weigh.
The link you provided says 1,546g
American Classic seem to think they weigh 1,608g
Noahs ark seem to think they're 1,910g
The set Grams Light had were 1,879g (admittedly though, that was back in '09)
It's hard to get a proper handle on them. It might actually be worthwhile me asking if the LBS can get a set in on sale or return, just to see.0 -
Someone posted about those on MTBR a while back, they ordered a set and when they turned up they were about 1800g. Never did see what happened in the end, it looked like he'd maybe been sent totally the wrong wheels.
Roval Traverse EL comes in at about 1600g for £360. Not the strongest nor the stiffest but I was pleased enough with my first set that now I have 2 Did manage to burst a spoke on fort william dh, but otoh I rode out half a stage at an innerleithen enduro with a flat front tyre, right through half the rock gardens on the black, and it barely took a bruise. Uncompromising extremist0 -
There have been a few versions it seems - the 2010 before were more of a budget number:
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/american ... 57703.html
The 2011 versions were lightened up, and more expensive. Weights seem to be for the QR pair, the thru axles seem to be a bit heavier.0 -
Still a wee bit skeptical about those tbh, they don't recommend the hubs for all mountain use if sold seperately so it's a weird choice for their AM wheels... I'd like to try em though.Uncompromising extremist0
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I have a new set of wheels from Superstar wouldnt call them AM more XC for a fat bastard. XM719 rims, sapim butted spokes, sapim ally nipples, Switch EVO front hub with 9mm converters, Trizoid 135x12 rear which I have fitted with a 10mm axle conversion kit. Total £305.
Seem nice tight and lightish (dont know weight havent weighed them) and with only 1 x 11 mile ride on them today no problems. I would have done more miles on them today but my bike got to the bottom of a set of very steep mossy slippery steps before me and I landed ribs first on the bike. Might be a week or so for the 2nd ride Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap0 -
On the hubs, for what it's worth, cheap generic Formula (think it's cone & cup) - zero maintenance bar cleaning, still going strong 3 or so years on trails, AM and DH use. Expensive Crank Brothers cartridge hub - warranty repair within a few months. In fact the CB rims required warranty repair too. Given they're AM/DH rims (Iodines), they seem to ding easily! - my "cheap" Alex Rims with the aforementioned Formula hubs are still good as new and no dings and have had AM/DH use even though they're not intended for it - still fine.0
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deadkenny wrote:On the hubs, for what it's worth, cheap generic Formula (think it's cone & cup) - zero maintenance bar cleaning, still going strong 3 or so years on trails, AM and DH use. Expensive Crank Brothers cartridge hub - warranty repair within a few months. In fact the CB rims required warranty repair too. Given they're AM/DH rims (Iodines), they seem to ding easily! - my "cheap" Alex Rims with the aforementioned Formula hubs are still good as new and no dings and have had AM/DH use even though they're not intended for it - still fine.
The main problem with the formulas is that 2 hubs weigh the best part of 1kg! Also, the engagement is terrible.0 -
Cat With No Tail wrote:
Only thing is, I'll need to use their X12 conversion kit, which looks VERY heavy.
Just realised that superstar do their trizoid rear hub in 12mm thru axle format which means that you would not need to use the conversion kit(I think)
http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=3660 -
Which is only 50g more than a pair of Pro2!0
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Northwind wrote:leaflite wrote:The main problem with the formulas is that 2 hubs weigh the best part of 1kg! Also, the engagement is terrible.
About 550g for the most common ones.
The DC20/22s featured on many £500 ish mtbs weigh 274g front, 486g rear according to their website, which is 760g in total and imo ridiculously heavy for 2 hubs
Edit: That said, some of their more expensive hubs are very light. I haven't seen any wheel builds aftermarket or oem with these on though.0 -
That's the bottom drawer ones... Doesn't really make any sense to discuss those in the light of a £450 wheelset! It'd be a bit like discounting all Shimano hubs because Deore are a bit hefty.Uncompromising extremist0
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Northwind wrote:That's the bottom drawer ones... Doesn't really make any sense to discuss those in the light of a £450 wheelset! It'd be a bit like discounting all Shimano hubs because Deore are a bit hefty.
I know, but I cant find anywhere that sells the more expensive ones.
The "most common ones" are the 760g ones. These are the ones that deadkenny was likely referring to as they came standard on the gt idrive that halfords used to sell.0 -
Nah, I don't agree with that, the ones I see most of are the Trek OEM ones, which also appear in just about every Bontrager wheelset and loads of other aftermarket options. My Carrera was a £300 bike but didn't come with the 20/22 combo.
You're right though, they're not easy to find new are they.Uncompromising extremist0 -
Weight of them is largely irrelevant to me anyway. Robustness over some swiss cheese piece of aluminium (especially freehubs, *cough* Crank Brothers).0
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The nice thing about the Traverses is that they come with DT240 hubs- they're in a custom Specialized shell but all internals are genuine DT. Not sure there's any better out there tbh.
Pro 2s are decent enough and a known quantity- worst thing you can really say about them is that the bearings don't last as long as some others, and that sometimes they split in half for no good reason. But Hope do have excellent warranty support if that happens.
Superstar are decent too... Not sure if the poor bearing life is due to sealing or if they just come with cheapo bearings tbh, I'd like to try a set with known quality bearings in to see what happens.
I'm not really sure why we got onto Formula tbh, bit of a weird diversion.Uncompromising extremist0 -
The wheels that come as standard on the Reed are DT 350 rear / 370 front hubs and Alexrims SX44.
That's not a bad wheelset in it's own right.
With regards to the Superstar wheels. I like the colour options, I like the potential weight. and I very much like the price. But the fact my last set went through a set of bearings and a freehub body in 5 months does give some cause for concern. HOWEVER, when replacing the bearings in my old set, I bought a bulk pack of SKF bearings, which I still have.
The Shimano wheels are something of an unknown quantity. I have my reservations about c&c longevity, but can it really be any worse than 5 months. Plus the C&C systems usually offer less resistance, so you can roll longer. I do understand there to be something of a "nack" to servicing them properly so they still roll nice and smooth without any lateral play.
American classics are VERY light, which makes me nervous as I'm a bit concerned about durability with my weight and inconsiderate line choices.
Hopes, I just don't see what they offer over superstar for the identical money.
It's going to be a tough decision I know that much. Although I have to say it's still between the XTRs and the Superstars at the moment for me.0 -
Cat With No Tail wrote:Hopes, I just don't see what they offer over superstar for the identical money.
Customer service. Also resale value. And less chance of getting a friday afternoon wheelset.Uncompromising extremist0 -
Just for comparison really, when it comes to cheap wheel sets with Formula hubs vs expensive wheel sets with expensive "light" alu hubs. Okay in my experience only really comparing wheels with Formula hubs with CB wheels & hubs. I know which I'd prefer now even if CB looks nice.Northwind wrote:I'm not really sure why we got onto Formula tbh, bit of a weird diversion.0 -
Customer service. Also resale value. And less chance of getting a friday afternoon wheelset.
I disagree with all that! Except maybe resale. But as they are cheaper anyway...0 -
supersonic wrote:The XTR hubs are superb, and in my opinion, the best freehub available: but are lighter AM sets about such as the American Classics.
I agree! Amazing as well.0 -
The reason why the american classics are so light is because the hubs are mega light despite having the switchable axles, which in theory allows for a stronger rim/spokes. They do look very good for the money. However, I am not sure what spares availability(eg matching spokes) will be like, and there does seem to be the odd report of bearing issues. The warranty seems to have excessive exclusions too-apparently they are not covered if you accidentaly damage or remove the decals for example.
This is why I think the superstars look so good-£50 or so cheaper, 2yr warranty and I think that, if you can get a trizoid hub that will fit, the bearings are better quality too.0 -
Didn't realise the XTR had such a hefty reduction! £450 with that 10% off thing:
http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop ... WHM988.htm
My older set have been flawless.0 -
Yeh, that's what attracted me to them. At RRP they were having a giraffe, but at £450 it's actually a good price.
I've had a few emails from Neil at superstar today and he's been massively halpful I have to say. They will ONLY use Sapim SILS nipples on their builds. He was VERY clear about that, saying even if I was to send them some others, they would refuse to do the build, which is fair enough.
He also pointed out that:on the switch hubs the whole axle is swapped inside and out. (look at the hub spares for pictures of what changes) only takes 20 seconds to do.
The 10mm one is alloy but thicker, the 12mm and 142mm ones are steel as the wall thickness is too thin for alloy to work reliably. The steel axles weigh about 30 grams more than qr type and roughly the same as 10mm.
On the completely different trizoid hub the bearing bore is larger so only the endcaps change from the 12mm version (not easy to change to 10mm as the bearings need to be replaced and new axle). Adds about 5 grams.
The fact they were so helpful, and responded to my initial query within a couple of hours, and my secondary question within minutes speaks volumes for their customer service.
Still can't choose between them or the XTRs though Something about those XTRs I just really like. 0
