Cavendish compared to Cancellara
How highly do you rate Cavendish as a bike rider when compared to a rider like Cancellara? Having been watching cycling now for over 10 years i must admit that alot of non classic races are becoming a bit boring. The outcome is always the same, a break goes up the road, gets some minutes and then in the last 10km they are reeled back in. HTC or this year SKY train takes over and Cavendish wins from a 200m sprint. My critism is that Cavendish has nothing to do for 200km and really only races for 200m.
Compare this to a rider like cancellara who will go on the attack and strike from a long way out, i consider this proper bike racing.
I'm not taking anythig away from cavendish, green jerseys, countless TDF statge wins, World champion etc but i consider someone like Cancellara a better rider then cavendish. Watching Strade Bianchi last weekend and seeing Cancellara out alone with 5 or 6 riders trying to reel him in made me think that hes more of a complete ride then Cav.
I would love to see Cavendish have a crack ar Flanders or Roubaix one day to see how good he really is when hes not delivered to 200m from the line.
What do you guys think?
Compare this to a rider like cancellara who will go on the attack and strike from a long way out, i consider this proper bike racing.
I'm not taking anythig away from cavendish, green jerseys, countless TDF statge wins, World champion etc but i consider someone like Cancellara a better rider then cavendish. Watching Strade Bianchi last weekend and seeing Cancellara out alone with 5 or 6 riders trying to reel him in made me think that hes more of a complete ride then Cav.
I would love to see Cavendish have a crack ar Flanders or Roubaix one day to see how good he really is when hes not delivered to 200m from the line.
What do you guys think?
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tarmacpro wrote:How highly do you rate Cavendish as a bike rider when compared to a rider like Cancellara? Having been watching cycling now for over 10 years i must admit that alot of non classic races are becoming a bit boring. The outcome is always the same, a break goes up the road, gets some minutes and then in the last 10km they are reeled back in. HTC or this year SKY train takes over and Cavendish wins from a 200m sprint. My critism is that Cavendish has nothing to do for 200km and really only races for 200m.
Compare this to a rider like cancellara who will go on the attack and strike from a long way out, i consider this proper bike racing.
I'm not taking anythig away from cavendish, green jerseys, countless TDF statge wins, World champion etc but i consider someone like Cancellara a better rider then cavendish. Watching Strade Bianchi last weekend and seeing Cancellara out alone with 5 or 6 riders trying to reel him in made me think that hes more of a complete ride then Cav.
I would love to see Cavendish have a crack ar Flanders or Roubaix one day to see how good he really is when hes not delivered to 200m from the line.
What do you guys think?
I think most of your statements are utter tosh. "Cavendish has nothing to do for 200km"?? Are you kidding? He won Milan - San Remo which involves several tough climbs and frequently wins bunch sprints when he has had to look after himself, without the huge lead out train. This ridiculous notion that he is always dropped right to the finish line is simply untrue. In winning the green jersey at latest years tour he ask demonstrated he could win intermediate sprints on his own and still take stage wins at the end, and to take green you need to survive the mountains - no lead out train for that :roll:
You cannot blame Cav or his teams for using his skill to deliver stage wins, he just happens to be the fastest of his generation from 500m in. If didn't have that absolute top end speed I'm sure he'd be involved in other types of race, such as the other spring classics. As his career continues I think he expects to challenge in more of those types of race, but whilst he can deliver 4 or 5 stages of the Tour per year, his sponsors and team are not going to change a thing and nor should they.
As for comparing him to Cancelarra, what's the point? Is Contador a better ride than Cancellara because the can win 3 week tours? No, they all have different skill sets and are each the best of their type. Cancellara is arguably the best all rounder of this era, but if he had the speed of Cav, don't you think he'd be focusing on Grand Tour wins instead?
Instead of questioning the guy, we should be celebrating his talent.0 -
You can't compare them, they are different types of rider. There are plenty of races that don't feature bunch sprints but when they do Cav is head and shoulders ahead of the rest (no advert pun intended!!). It's not really down to the lead out train and I think we will see less of that with Sky, particularly at the Tour. It is more to do with others needing to up their game so that we have really competetive sprint battles and hopefully the likes of Greipel and Kittel will start to do this more regularly. Proper bike racing is riding to win - the types of race are variable and suit different types of rider which is the beauty of the sport. There is no point in trying to go solo from 30km out when you know you will win 80% of bunch sprints just as there's no point in a mountain goat tring to keep the race together and hoping to win the sprint. Why weren't people making the same arguements when Cippo was winning every sprint?0
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"In winning the green jersey at latest years tour he ask demonstrated he could win intermediate sprints on his own and still take stage wins at the end, and to take green you need to survive the mountains - no lead out train for that"
If i recall right in last years Tour on 2 stages the groupetto were outside the time limit and because there were so many in the group they couldnt disqualify them all. So i think you are wrong to state that he has to survive in the mountains...they know how to play the game, get a big bunch together ride tempo and know they wont be disqualified (which i dont agree with).
Majority of the time he is dropped to the finish...you cant really believ this to be untrue surely??? he might have to fight for position in the last 1 or 2 ks if his train hasnt worked perfectly but i think you will find more often then not hes dropped to the line.0 -
Here's a suggestion - why don't we arrange for you to ride a pro race and be the protected sprinter for a team? You can then do nothing until the final 200 metres and find out how easy it is for yourself.0
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Not sure where my original, and much, much better reply disappeared to.tarmacpro wrote:I'm not taking anythig away from cavendish, green jerseys, countless TDF statge wins, World champion etc
I'd hate to see you when you are taking something away from him.
Cavendish is a phenom. A freak.
Like Cancellara, teams devise entire strategies to defeating Cav. From 10k to go it is everyone vs Cav. Everyone trying to get on his wheel, or break up his train, or send him wide on a corner, or swarm his train entirely. Yet he still wins at an astonishing rate.
The beauty of cycling is in the different skillsets, and how they fare against each other over the different terrains. It would be awfully dull if everyone was a Cancellara or a Contador or a Cavendish.
I don't really know what to say about the notion that he only races 200 metres. You don't just find yourself in pole position at the front of the peloton with 200m to go time and time again. You just don't.0 -
Some types of rider might be more exciting to watch than others, but the only thing that can make you the best is crossing the line first.Riding the Etape du Tour for Beating Bowel Cancer - click to donate http://bit.ly/P9eBbM0
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I was thinking the other day how quiet Corneymade had gone since Cav won the Worlds, it seems he may be back with a new name!0
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Pross wrote:I was thinking the other day how quiet Corneymade had gone since Cav won the Worlds, it seems he may be back with a new name!
Nah, the OP's question is far too rational for it to be the same person. Hea also didn't mention Corneymade's idol, Tyler Farrar."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:RichN95 wrote:A win is a win, there's no better or worse way of getting it.
Not from a fan's perspective and you know it.
Sure. But a fan's entertainment has no bearing on who is a 'better' rider (whatever that means). For example, Cancellara's 2010 Roubaix win was utterly dominant, but it sure was boring. The same can be said for Indurain's entire career.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Rick Chasey wrote:RichN95 wrote:A win is a win, there's no better or worse way of getting it.
Not from a fan's perspective and you know it.
I agree with you there.
I know you haven't suggested otherwise, but I think from a fan's perspective a full-on bunch sprint can provide as awesome a finish as any other type of finish. Not sure I've enjoyed many stages much more than I enjoyed Cav's MSR win, or his World Championship win. His win over Gilbert on the uphill finish in last year's Tour was also great. He's had his fair share of jump-out-the-seat wins.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:RichN95 wrote:A win is a win, there's no better or worse way of getting it.
Not from a fan's perspective and you know it.
Cav, Contador, Cancellara are equally as good riders, they all have different Skillsets, different goals and targets. All achieve them very well. A good Sprint can be just as exciting to watch as a Good attack in the alps, but the final outcome in the sprints does, inevitably, become a little tedious. That is certainly not Cavendish's fault, he cannot help being the best.
personally id take a great Mountain Top Finish over a Great Sprint, but thats a fans perspective. Ride quality wise, both have there merrits, both are difficult. thats all there is to it i think...0 -
RichN95 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:RichN95 wrote:A win is a win, there's no better or worse way of getting it.
Not from a fan's perspective and you know it.
Sure. But a fan's entertainment has no bearing on who is a 'better' rider (whatever that means). For example, Cancellara's 2010 Roubaix win was utterly dominant, but it sure was boring. The same can be said for Indurain's entire career.
Sure.
For me, Cancellara's talent is 'better' because I get more entertainment value out of it.0 -
looks like i've hit a nerve here with some Cav lovers....as i originally stated what he has achieved is phenomonal for his age (26???). My point is that alot of races are now boring. Before i would turn on the TV and watch all the stage from start to finish. Now though if its a pan flat day you only need tune in for the last kilometre. Anyone who thinks otherwise i think is kidding themselves. What happend to the days of solo break aways, the guy hanging on for dear life to win the stage. Its like controllling robots now these days. I grew up watching the likes of Kelly, Abdoujaparov, van poppel race..that was exciting racing. Now its let the attackers stay out until 10k, best not reel them in before then because there might be another attack blah blah blah.
Anyway i would consider a Cancellara/Gilbert a more exciting bike rider then a Cavendish. Thats my opinion and im sticking to it. 8)0 -
Both are truly great riders with different specialisms and skill sets, no need to compare one to the other.tarmacpro wrote:If i recall right in last years Tour on 2 stages the groupetto were outside the time limit and because there were so many in the group they couldnt disqualify them all. So i think you are wrong to state that he has to survive in the mountains...they know how to play the game, get a big bunch together ride tempo and know they wont be disqualified (which i dont agree with).
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Cancellera was in the grupetto with Cavendish on those stages!0 -
Its very difficult to compare different types of riders as they are built completly differently, have different skills meaning some are good at one thing, others another. Does that make them better than each other? Like comparing a granny smith with a braburn- both are apples but are completly different. In the end it comes down to one person's preference over another. As pointed out above, some people like sprints, others prefer mountain top finishes. Doesn't mean that either is less improtant than the other.
Cav is paid a lot to win races, that's his job & if he doesn't then he knows that he's let not only himself down but also the team who will have helped to put him in the correct position. Cancellara doesn't have that same responsibility so is more free to assess the race situation & do something off his own back. Just because this is may look more exciting doesn't make him any better0 -
I never said he wasnt. ajb72 was implying that cavendish has to survive in the mountains etc but if we consider surviving riding up a mountain in a big group knowing you wont be disqualified then i have a different interpretation of that0
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tarmacpro wrote:looks like i've hit a nerve here with some Cav lovers....as i originally stated what he has achieved is phenomonal for his age (26???). My point is that alot of races are now boring. Before i would turn on the TV and watch all the stage from start to finish. Now though if its a pan flat day you only need tune in for the last kilometre. Anyone who thinks otherwise i think is kidding themselves. What happend to the days of solo break aways, the guy hanging on for dear life to win the stage. Its like controllling robots now these days. I grew up watching the likes of Kelly, Abdoujaparov, van poppel race..that was exciting racing. Now its let the attackers stay out until 10k, best not reel them in before then because there might be another attack blah blah blah.
Anyway i would consider a Cancellara/Gilbert a more exciting bike rider then a Cavendish. Thats my opinion and im sticking to it. 8)
Your memory of flat stages from the past is being severely warped by nostalgia.0 -
Omar Little wrote:Both are truly great riders with different specialisms and skill sets, no need to compare one to the other.tarmacpro wrote:If i recall right in last years Tour on 2 stages the groupetto were outside the time limit and because there were so many in the group they couldnt disqualify them all. So i think you are wrong to state that he has to survive in the mountains...they know how to play the game, get a big bunch together ride tempo and know they wont be disqualified (which i dont agree with).
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Cancellera was in the grupetto with Cavendish on those stages!
I sometimes have the misfortune of reading the cycling news forum. it was hilarious last year watching the Anti-Cav brigade saying how he should lose the green jersey because he missed the time limit and that Rojas or Gilbert should win it instead. Then the next day they all missed the time limit as well, and they all went very quiet."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
Turfle wrote:tarmacpro wrote:looks like i've hit a nerve here with some Cav lovers....as i originally stated what he has achieved is phenomonal for his age (26???). My point is that alot of races are now boring. Before i would turn on the TV and watch all the stage from start to finish. Now though if its a pan flat day you only need tune in for the last kilometre. Anyone who thinks otherwise i think is kidding themselves. What happend to the days of solo break aways, the guy hanging on for dear life to win the stage. Its like controllling robots now these days. I grew up watching the likes of Kelly, Abdoujaparov, van poppel race..that was exciting racing. Now its let the attackers stay out until 10k, best not reel them in before then because there might be another attack blah blah blah.
Anyway i would consider a Cancellara/Gilbert a more exciting bike rider then a Cavendish. Thats my opinion and im sticking to it. 8)
Your memory of flat stages from the past is being severely warped by nostalgia.
True, but the sprints where you didn't know who was going to win were more fun.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Turfle wrote:tarmacpro wrote:looks like i've hit a nerve here with some Cav lovers....as i originally stated what he has achieved is phenomonal for his age (26???). My point is that alot of races are now boring. Before i would turn on the TV and watch all the stage from start to finish. Now though if its a pan flat day you only need tune in for the last kilometre. Anyone who thinks otherwise i think is kidding themselves. What happend to the days of solo break aways, the guy hanging on for dear life to win the stage. Its like controllling robots now these days. I grew up watching the likes of Kelly, Abdoujaparov, van poppel race..that was exciting racing. Now its let the attackers stay out until 10k, best not reel them in before then because there might be another attack blah blah blah.
Anyway i would consider a Cancellara/Gilbert a more exciting bike rider then a Cavendish. Thats my opinion and im sticking to it. 8)
Your memory of flat stages from the past is being severely warped by nostalgia.
True, but the sprints where you didn't know who was going to win were more fun.
Exactly!0 -
Which in itself is a great argument for how good Cav is.0
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The big question for the OP seems to be 'Is the word 'then' the same as 'than'?'
Sorry to be a complete douche-bag but it's massively getting on my tits.
And I also think you can't really compare. And Cav's success isn't just 'good for his age' - if he retired now his palmares would be considered one of the greatest of all time for a sprinter.0 -
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Do you have any idea how hard it is just to finish in the bunch? Never mind fighting your way through it after 200km of hard faced-paced racing. What you consider "proper racing" is what I consider a rider playing to his strengths, which is exactly what Cav does. This thread is like saying "who's the better runner, Usain Bolt or Haile Gebrselassie? I consider Gebrselassie to be much better, Usain bolt only has to work hard for 10 seconds and then it's all over".
Seeing as you're either a troll or new to cycle racing I shan't be posting in here again. There are many other people welcome to come and explain things to you in a bit more depth if you need it? I'll let them do it as I'm very busy now lunch is over...0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Turfle wrote:Which in itself is a great argument for how good Cav is.
Or the lack of competition
It's a bit of both. More the talent and less the competition, but still.
Who of Cav's rivals would have given the likes of Cippo a run for their money?
There seems to be alot of ageing sprinters being replaced by a few distinctly average young ones. There's not many classy sprinters in the peloton at the minute in my view, and certainly none to the level of Cav or Cippo. One I'd watch for the future is Kittel, but he's hardley Mr Consistent, probably down to team support more than anything.0 -
I think Greipel and Goss are legitimate competition but we can't forget that Greipel only started sprinting against Cavendish last year and Goss this year. Farrar simply isn't that great a sprinter. Kittel and Guardini should be good competition in years to come.
Essentially Cavendish is going to experience true competition the for the very first time in the coming years.0
