Race data = inaccurate LTHR?

Cannon71

This time last year I did Joe Friel's ramp test to estimate my LTHR. 162 apparently. So, zones set accordingly.

I've noticed my max HR exceed my 177 a couple of times but thought nothing of it really, until this weekend...

I did my first race at Ludgershall in the 4ths. 40mins at (according to my Garmin 305) 174bpm, or 98% of max (or zone 5.8 if you're that interested). So here's the question - can I use this data to adjust my zones, or should I use TTs and use the last 10mins av. HR?

Mwah!

Alex_Simmons/RST

It's one of the issues with HR, as it's affected by more than how hard we are riding. Racing HR is often higher than training HR due to enhanced level of arousal/adrenaline.

Tom Dean

40 mins at 98% MHR?

CakeLovinBeast

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

...Racing HR is often higher than training HR due to enhanced level of arousal...

There are some good looking lads in my club, to be sure, but I'm not sure I like them *that* much!

Cannon71

Thanks Alex, but 98%?

Its a good point, so I'd expect to be racing around my LTHR (for a 40min crit) but a HR monitor showing just over due to arousal/adrenaline. It's just that this gap seems a bit big.

Is the problem that it's hard to account for exactly how much adrenaline affects HR, meaning I can't use this data to reset my zones?

GiantMike

Doesn't Freil say that using you average HR during a race is a good estimate of your LTHR (I'll have to re-read this bit when I get home). If this is so, I'd estimate your LTHR to be 172-4 based on your race data.

Using the 'race test', my LTHR is 174 and a max HR of 186-9 (depending on activity). This means my LTHR is 92% of my Max HR.

amaferanga

I have a much higher HR during races for a given power/RPE compared to what I can do in training. I can race for an hour at around 88-90% MHR, but on the turbo or even training on the road I could barely hold that HR for 10 minutes.

doyler78

You have said that you used Friel tests, which are based on lactate threshold, however you havne't said how you determined your maxHR. So how do you know your max?

Tom Dean

If you are using the Friel tests you don't need to know maxHR (which you clearly don't). Knowing your max would give you a better idea of when your figures were outside normal ranges.

If you want to set training levels through testing, you need to do proper testing.

The Friel ramp test seems a bit vague to me - 'LT typically occurs when RPE is in the range of 15-17'. Whatever test protocol you use though, you need to test a few times as HR is affected by all sorts of things as described in previous posts. The more testing you do, the better you will be able to estimate your levels.

ric/rstsport

Cannon71 wrote:

This time last year I did Joe Friel's ramp test to estimate my LTHR. 162 apparently. So, zones set accordingly.

I've noticed my max HR exceed my 177 a couple of times but thought nothing of it really, until this weekend...

I did my first race at Ludgershall in the 4ths. 40mins at (according to my Garmin 305) 174bpm, or 98% of max (or zone 5.8 if you're that interested). So here's the question - can I use this data to adjust my zones, or should I use TTs and use the last 10mins av. HR?

Mwah!

To open this discussion out...

Firstly, there's no such thing as "LTHR". Heart rate has nothing whatsoever to do with lactate threshold. Lactate threshold, is, as the name suggests 'something' to do with lactate. Within the scientific literature there are several ways of determining LT and several other metrics which are similar (but different).

Lactate threshold is defined as the work rate that elicits a specific rise in lactate (over exercise baseline). Work rate is defined as power output in cycling (and rowing i believe) and in km/hr or m/s in running. Lactate is measured invasively in your blood (usually a finger prick or ear lobe measurement).

The usual two methods of determining lactate threshold, use an incremental ramp test with a very slow ramp rate (not the same as the ramp rate used by Alex or myself or the other coaches at http://www.rstsport.com). The threshold occurs as lactate production significantly increases. This is usually defined in one of two ways

a) A 1 mmol/L increase over exercise baseline levels. This would give a lactate measure of 2.X mmol (where X differs for each person), as resting lactate level is about 1.X mmol/L in most people
b) a fixed rate of 2.5 mmol/L, which is going to be very similar to a, but slightly different by a few Watts

At this level (2.X or 2.5) it's a moderate intensity, which is about 10 to 15% less power than that which can be sustained maximally for ~1 hour. So, for e.g., if you can ride maximally for 1hr at 250 W, lactate threshold would be about 212 to 225 W. This sort of effort can be sustained for up to 3 to 4 hours in well trained cyclists (although you may feel pretty shattered at the end of it!).

There is no physiological measure that really captures what you can achieve for one hour (although maximal lactate steady state or critical power are very close). However, lactate threshold *is* highly related to what you can sustain for 1hr. In other words the higher your LT the higher your ~1hr power.

Furthermore, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with HR! HR varies under different conditions even at a specific power output. For e.g. riding at 250 W in 10oC will likely result in a significantly different HR to riding at 250 W in 35oC or riding at sea level versus an altitude of 2000m.

Additionally, as Alex mentions HR also varies with other scenarios (not just environmental or topographical) but for e.g. cadence, and with arousal (e.g. anxiety).

Using HR to set training zones isn't imo the best thing you can do. It's better to use power output (although i understand that not everyone wants a power meter). Personally, if i work with an athlete who doesn't have a power meter i'd set training level based on an incremental MAP test to determine maximal HR. But you could also use HR from an all-out 1 hr TT. Of course, in the OP case there could be anxiety/arousal due to being in a RR (it's either exciting or worrying for many people doing these events) which can cause HR to be higher than normal at the same power output (so i like to use HR with percieved exertion, also i use it with power as well).

It could be that your max HR is higher than 177 b/min (or maybe it isn't?).

cyco2

I would think that doing a 10 TT would put you into a lactate region and by taking an average of the HR for 15 mins of it would give you a LTHR. Not accurate I know but it is something to play with. But at the end of the day if you can train at race pace then that is good.

Cannon71

doyler78 wrote:

You have said that you used Friel tests, which are based on lactate threshold, however you havne't said how you determined your maxHR. So how do you know your max?

That's fair...(and again re: your later post) I don't as his test doesn't call for this. The 177 is a 'common max' taken from Friel's tables, so it's a worthless figure, apart from the fact that it corresponds to a LTHR of 89% of maxHR, again, according to Friel. (I appreciate that you can justifiably argue that his 89% is 'common' and not a good way to measure your own LTHR as a % of max.)

GiantMike wrote:

Doesn't Freil say that using you average HR during a race is a good estimate of your LTHR (I'll have to re-read this bit when I get home). If this is so, I'd estimate your LTHR to be 172-4 based on your race data.

I've not seen that bit - where in the book is that test?

Tom Dean wrote:

If you are using the Friel tests you don't need to know maxHR (which you clearly don't). Knowing your max would give you a better idea of when your figures were outside normal ranges.

If you want to set training levels through testing, you need to do proper testing.

No, I don't actually know my max. But as both myself and cyco2 say, should a few 10m TTs help? I was thinking of doing Graeme Street's maxHR test, but I don't have a turbo. Any other suggestions for finding maxHR on the road?

@Ric/RSTSport - that's going to take me a little more time to digest! However, I do see your point: I can appreciate that HR is a bad metric for LT.
I can understand that power is better but I'm cat4 (albeit with a 2nd place in my 1st RR, so cat3 (hopefully!) by my next RR!) and not so eager to spend more than 4-6hrs/wk training, so investing in a power meter/turbo is a bit OTT. I've seen your website though and find myself procrastinating on seeking coaching... (same excuse as above: with 4-6hrs/wk, I'm not going to hit cat2, so why bother? That said, my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT on ~8hrs/wk! So with 4-6hrs, I'm sure I can hit a few course records with the right training! Different thread though methinks!)

ric/rstsport

@Ric/RSTSport - that's going to take me a little more time to digest! However, I do see your point: I can appreciate that HR is a bad metric for LT.
I can understand that power is better but I'm cat4 (albeit with a 2nd place in my 1st RR, so cat3 (hopefully!) by my next RR!) and not so eager to spend more than 4-6hrs/wk training, so investing in a power meter/turbo is a bit OTT. I've seen your website though and find myself procrastinating on seeking coaching... (same excuse as above: with 4-6hrs/wk, I'm not going to hit cat2, so why bother? That said, my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT on ~8hrs/wk! So with 4-6hrs, I'm sure I can hit a few course records with the right training! Different thread though methinks!)

Sure, while ~ 6 hrs isn't a whole lot of training time you'd be amazed what you can do with it. But, to get the best out of yourself in such a short time frame will require you to work pretty hard ;-). a few years ago i coached someone with an equally small amount of time and with some quality hard work he had quite a few very decent PBs.

I think you should definitely have a turbo tho. very time efficient quality training. for me i find riding the road i waste about 15 to 20% of my ride time by coasting (due to traffic, junctions, descents, etc).

sub55

Tom Dean wrote:

I can understand that power is better but I'm cat4 (albeit with a 2nd place in my 1st RR, so cat3 (hopefully!) by my next RR!) and not so eager to spend more than 4-6hrs/wk training, so investing in a power meter/turbo is a bit OTT. I've seen your website though and find myself procrastinating on seeking coaching... (same excuse as above: with 4-6hrs/wk, I'm not going to hit cat2, so why bother? That said, my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT on ~8hrs/wk! So with 4-6hrs, I'm sure I can hit a few course records with the right training! Different thread though methinks!)

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

:?:

Tom Dean

sub55 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

I can understand that power is better but I'm cat4 (albeit with a 2nd place in my 1st RR, so cat3 (hopefully!) by my next RR!) and not so eager to spend more than 4-6hrs/wk training, so investing in a power meter/turbo is a bit OTT. I've seen your website though and find myself procrastinating on seeking coaching... (same excuse as above: with 4-6hrs/wk, I'm not going to hit cat2, so why bother? That said, my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT on ~8hrs/wk! So with 4-6hrs, I'm sure I can hit a few course records with the right training! Different thread though methinks!)

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

:?:

Not my words!

GiantMike

sub55 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

I can understand that power is better but I'm cat4 (albeit with a 2nd place in my 1st RR, so cat3 (hopefully!) by my next RR!) and not so eager to spend more than 4-6hrs/wk training, so investing in a power meter/turbo is a bit OTT. I've seen your website though and find myself procrastinating on seeking coaching... (same excuse as above: with 4-6hrs/wk, I'm not going to hit cat2, so why bother? That said, my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT on ~8hrs/wk! So with 4-6hrs, I'm sure I can hit a few course records with the right training! Different thread though methinks!)

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

:?:

Great contribution to the debate. Well done.

doyler78

Pick your method to set zones and stick to them. Max HR is irrelevant other than to set zones if you choose to set them based off that however as you have already done the Friel test and have zones set why bother? As for Friel's table - it's only guidelines and can only ever be given the inherent vagueries of heart rate.

If you find that you can complete theshold intevals too easily then it's probably a sign your initial testing may not have been good and this may the reason why you see such a high percentage on estimated max (Friel's estimate) however if you find that the threshold intervals are challenging then forget about it and just do the workouts as prescribed.

sub55

GiantMike wrote:

sub55 wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

I can understand that power is better but I'm cat4 (albeit with a 2nd place in my 1st RR, so cat3 (hopefully!) by my next RR!) and not so eager to spend more than 4-6hrs/wk training, so investing in a power meter/turbo is a bit OTT. I've seen your website though and find myself procrastinating on seeking coaching... (same excuse as above: with 4-6hrs/wk, I'm not going to hit cat2, so why bother? That said, my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT on ~8hrs/wk! So with 4-6hrs, I'm sure I can hit a few course records with the right training! Different thread though methinks!)

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

:?:

Great contribution to the debate. Well done.

i was merely trying to understand this bit

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

don`t make sense to me

Cannon71

i was merely trying to understand this bit

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

don`t make sense to me

I have a club mate who got 10th place over 10miles at the British TT champs on what I believe to be 'only' 8-10hrs/week. Does that make sense?

sub55

Cannon71 wrote:

i was merely trying to understand this bit

my club-mate is 10th on the UK at 10m TT

don`t make sense to me

I have a club mate who got 10th place over 10miles at the British TT champs on what I believe to be 'only' 8-10hrs/week. Does that make sense?

Fair enough , he might have made top 5 if done a little more work.
What works for one ,wont necesseril work for another.
For what its worth , theres 2 CTT national championship winners medals sitting in my cupboard and i think your training is based on wishful thinking. But not saying mine would suit you better. but i know it works

Cannon71

sub55 wrote:

For what its worth , theres 2 CTT national championship winners medals sitting in my cupboard...

Well done on your medals (honestly, I'm respectful of that) but you've read something that's not there...

sub55 wrote:

...and i think your training is based on wishful thinking.

All I've said is that "I put in 4-6hrs/wk and that I'm not going to make Cat2." That's not wishful thinking, as much as it is a training goal! If I said I was aiming for Cat2 on 4-6hrs/wk, then fair enough... But I'm not!

And I'm starting to doubt Friel et al when they say 'you need to put the miles in': on 4hrs/wk, I took 2nd at my first race. Granted, it was pretty tough, but 4hr/wk was evidently enough. (And yes, perhaps it wasn't a 'high' quality field, but perhaps it was...)

Anyway, we've diverged from the OP...

amaferanga

How long was the race? Try doing a 2.5 hour Reg A race on your 4 hours a week and let us know how it goes.

Cannon71

amaferanga wrote:

How long was the race? Try doing a 2.5 hour Reg A race on your 4 hours a week and let us know how it goes.

haha! Well, therein lies the problem! 40mins only, Reg C+.

But again, I'm not in this to ascend the ladder. I'm more interested in seeing what happens when I ask my body to deliver!

The OP was about whether I should reset my zones. I think that's been answered - do more TTs. I appreciate your input though, its all food for thought...

GarryM

Friel and others talk about the sensation of going over the 'lactate threshold' - heavy breathing, legs burning etc. I don't race but on my rides those sensations seem to be regularly at 160-163 or so. When I did the Friel LTHR test it came out at 161 so I've been quite happy to train around HR Zones calculated from that. I would think you still have those sensations when racing but you're just prepared to put up with them and push harder if required.