Which cassette for crit racing?
Theomerchant
Posts: 187
Im starting racing this year and my first few races are very flat very twisty circuit races (recipe for disaster I know). Anyhoo I dont want to have any problems accelerating out of the corners. I currently run a 12-25t Shimano cassette so the ratio gaps are quite big when changing into the higher 4 gears of the block. what I was wondering was would it be worth getting a 12-21t cassette for crit racing so there wont be any big jumps between the gears?
NB; I can pick up a cassette for quite cheap so justification isn't an issue :P
NB; I can pick up a cassette for quite cheap so justification isn't an issue :P
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I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.0
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53:12 is good for 35MPH at 100RPM and that's plenty to win a cat 3/4 sprint in my experience.0
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12-25 is fine. You will only be using the lower half of the block anyway...0
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Thats a ridiculous comment, you did not spin out, you just couldn't spin fast enough, you need to spin faster.carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I have yet to even find a decent in the UK where I have spun out on a 51 x 12.
You should be able to do at least 45 to 50mph before spinning out on such a high gear. If you try to sprint on such a high gear you will have to wind it up over 300m or more, Cav would hit 40mph or more in sprints on such a gear,I suspect you were going a lot slower than that.
12 21 straightthrough is a good choice.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:
Thats a ridiculous comment, you did not spin out, you just couldn't spin fast enough, you need to spin faster.carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I have yet to even find a decent in the UK where I have spun out on a 51 x 12.
You should be able to do at least 45 to 50mph before spinning out on such a high gear. If you try to sprint on such a high gear you will have to wind it up over 300m or more, Cav would hit 40mph or more in sprints on such a gear,I suspect you were going a lot slower than that.
12 21 straightthrough is a good choice.
You've yet to find a decent that you've spun out on? Then you're not going down any hills...unless you can spin your legs at 200+rpm or you've never been over 35MPH downhill.
OP I'm using 50/34 - 12-25 on my bike in crits and it's borderline ok on the sprint. I do need to change to 53/39 with a 12-25 cassette soon though.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:
Thats a ridiculous comment, you did not spin out, you just couldn't spin fast enough, you need to spin faster.carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I have yet to even find a decent in the UK where I have spun out on a 51 x 12.
You should be able to do at least 45 to 50mph before spinning out on such a high gear. If you try to sprint on such a high gear you will have to wind it up over 300m or more, Cav would hit 40mph or more in sprints on such a gear,I suspect you were going a lot slower than that.
12 21 straightthrough is a good choice.
+1 for 12-21, wot I use for racing, 53-39 up front.
You wont be spinning out on 53-12 in a sprint, unless its a fair downhill slope. Even then, doubtful.0 -
I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
Doubtful! You need to learn to pedal at higher cadence! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbwngNoHm0
If you are looking for the ideal i'd say ratios as close as possible - e.g. even if you were having to climb on a course i'd say as long as 39/21 was low enough then always go for the closest ratio block you could run... Where are the crits?0 -
carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
If you're spinning out on 53/12 on a flat sprint then you surely must no longer be a 4th Cat?More problems but still living....0 -
Probably an urban myth - but wasn't the 11 tooth sprocket developed for Cipollini? Still, i bet he hasn't won a 4th cat chipper in a while.... :-D0
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All this talk of spinning out on a 53 x 12, it's only 20 years ago most people were riding a 52 x 13 as their biggest gear and I can't recall anyone spinning out in the sprints.0
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DavidJB wrote:oldwelshman wrote:
Thats a ridiculous comment, you did not spin out, you just couldn't spin fast enough, you need to spin faster.carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I have yet to even find a decent in the UK where I have spun out on a 51 x 12.
You should be able to do at least 45 to 50mph before spinning out on such a high gear. If you try to sprint on such a high gear you will have to wind it up over 300m or more, Cav would hit 40mph or more in sprints on such a gear,I suspect you were going a lot slower than that.
12 21 straightthrough is a good choice.
You've yet to find a decent that you've spun out on? Then you're not going down any hills...unless you can spin your legs at 200+rpm or you've never been over 35MPH downhill.
OP I'm using 50/34 - 12-25 on my bike in crits and it's borderline ok on the sprint. I do need to change to 53/39 with a 12-25 cassette soon though.
On a 51 x 12 you would 'only' be doing 120rpm at roughly 40mph and 140rpm at 46.5rpm. That's a very fast cadence for most but it isn't necessarily spinning out if you can keep pressure on the pedals. Even I can sustain 140rpm for a minute or so and I'm not the fastest of pedallers. People seem to claim to spin out at anything over 100rpm which to a lot of riders is a fairly normal cadence. 53 x 12 at 120rpm (a cadence most racing cyclists can sustain for the 10 - 15 seconds of a sprint fairly easily) gives a speed of over 41 mph!!0 -
Pseudonym wrote:Pross wrote:All this talk of spinning out on a 53 x 12, it's only 20 years ago most people were riding a 52 x 13 as their biggest gear and I can't recall anyone spinning out in the sprints.
20 years ago - that was the days before 'internet bullsh1t' though...
Yep, those were the days - you didn't need a bottom gear of 34 x 28 back then either as 2 mile long 25% climbs didn't exist as they seem to now 0 -
carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I once read this on another site - Track Racing Website (Right at the bottom)At 64kmh (40mph), a 52 x 13 is turning at 128rpm’s. This is about the right cadence for road sprinting, and it’s fully 30rpm’s less than elite track riders turn during accelerations. Oh, and most amateurs have never gone 40mph in a road sprint before in their lives – and even today, most pro road sprints max out at or below this speed. So much for needing a 12.
I think our definitions of "spin out" must be very different indeed0 -
52/13 is ok for me so far. The least of my worries is not having a big enough top gear0
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Pross wrote:DavidJB wrote:oldwelshman wrote:
Thats a ridiculous comment, you did not spin out, you just couldn't spin fast enough, you need to spin faster.carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I have yet to even find a decent in the UK where I have spun out on a 51 x 12.
You should be able to do at least 45 to 50mph before spinning out on such a high gear. If you try to sprint on such a high gear you will have to wind it up over 300m or more, Cav would hit 40mph or more in sprints on such a gear,I suspect you were going a lot slower than that.
12 21 straightthrough is a good choice.
You've yet to find a decent that you've spun out on? Then you're not going down any hills...unless you can spin your legs at 200+rpm or you've never been over 35MPH downhill.
OP I'm using 50/34 - 12-25 on my bike in crits and it's borderline ok on the sprint. I do need to change to 53/39 with a 12-25 cassette soon though.
On a 51 x 12 you would 'only' be doing 120rpm at roughly 40mph and 140rpm at 46.5rpm. That's a very fast cadence for most but it isn't necessarily spinning out if you can keep pressure on the pedals. Even I can sustain 140rpm for a minute or so and I'm not the fastest of pedallers. People seem to claim to spin out at anything over 100rpm which to a lot of riders is a fairly normal cadence. 53 x 12 at 120rpm (a cadence most racing cyclists can sustain for the 10 - 15 seconds of a sprint fairly easily) gives a speed of over 41 mph!!
looking at my last race I was doing 34MPH @ 112RPM on a 50-12 and didn't feel like I was 'spinning out' but I probably 'spin out' at 125 I'm bit of a grinder by nature so...I can't turn my legs at 9million RPM like some but I can sprint pretty well (for a 4th cat) on my 53/12 set up which is on my training bike...I wasn't hammering it though to be fair because I was in a poor position coming out of the last turn so wasn't really a need for a massive sprint. If I wasn't injured at the moment I would go and do some tests tonight! 0 -
OP - A normal 12-25 cassette will be fine. I prefer a 12-23 now for crits but it's a luxury rather than a necessity.
You say you're fine sprinting out of corners but trust me, you'll probably find that isn't quite true. Get yourself in a hard crit and you'll do more efforts and harder than you've ever managed before. Enjoy it, it's great fun!
As for spinning out. If you can do it on any gear combination then I'd recommend you work on candence. I'm happy at 40 mph on a compact with my 12-23 (39 mph is only a cadence of 120 at 39 mph). In theory that means on a 53/11 I shouldn't spin out (160+) until I'm breaking 60mph! (as if
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For reference - http://www.machars.net/bikecalc.htm0 -
Cheers for all the info guys. I'm not worried about spinning out as I've done track racing last year so high cadence isn't an issue, all I was worried about was changing up a gear out of a corner and the gap being too big on the cassette...changing from a 15t to 17t for example and ending up not being able to get the power down out of the corner. I have decided to go for a 12-21 so the ratio should be nice and tight. Thanks again! 0
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If you can get a cassette quite cheap then for flat racing I would certainly go for a straight through cassette (or as straight through as possible). With a straight through 12-21 you would be able to ride on 53 x 19 or 20 without going to the little ring and I doubt you'd need anthing lower in a flat crit.0
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BONKSTRONG wrote:carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I once read this on another site - Track Racing Website (Right at the bottom)At 64kmh (40mph), a 52 x 13 is turning at 128rpm’s. This is about the right cadence for road sprinting, and it’s fully 30rpm’s less than elite track riders turn during accelerations. Oh, and most amateurs have never gone 40mph in a road sprint before in their lives – and even today, most pro road sprints max out at or below this speed. So much for needing a 12.
I think our definitions of "spin out" must be very different indeed
Full of great quotes for this thread!!!! Check this out!
"Twelve-tooth and eleven-tooth cogs only became available in the last few decades, and the big chainring on a road bike was a 52 until the late 80’s. It seems that Eddy Merckx won his races with a 52 x 13 [105”] top gear. What should be obvious now – and can easily be confirmed with an online gear calculator – is that any amateur roadie who claims to use his 12-tooth cog is either blowing smoke or slowing himself down. And an 11 is a waste of space."0 -
I have been racing on a compact with a 12-25 (or maybe 11?) its fine, I can probably hit 40 mph on the flat, and have done 37 mph up hill at Hillingdon, neither time was I spinning out, and they are (at 3/4 level) race winning sprints in terms of speed. So do not worry about it. You'll be fine.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0
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Straight through is best for flat crits if you can get one. I would expect to be around 16-17-18 in a 4th cat race so 12-23 is good for me. The 15-17 gap in a 11-25 feels massive.okgo wrote:I have been racing on a compact with a 12-25 (or maybe 11?) its fine, I can probably hit 40 mph on the flat, and have done 37 mph up hill at Hillingdon, neither time was I spinning out, and they are (at 3/4 level) race winning sprints in terms of speed. So do not worry about it. You'll be fine.
Oh have you won at Hillingdon? You never mentioned it before 0 -
Tom Dean wrote:okgo wrote:I have been racing on a compact with a 12-25 (or maybe 11?) its fine, I can probably hit 40 mph on the flat, and have done 37 mph up hill at Hillingdon, neither time was I spinning out, and they are (at 3/4 level) race winning sprints in terms of speed. So do not worry about it. You'll be fine.
Oh have you won at Hillingdon? You never mentioned it before
Also remember he now has a double - no idea why as he seems to have a nice spinny preferred cadence and doesn't yet come round me up hills and I'm thinking of going back to the 34 from the 36 on the "race" bike. I fear the skinny whippet climbers or crazy traditionalists got at him.
Whilst not actually spun out, In one race with a compact I did find myself in a race once unable to put out the 400+watts I needed to come through downhill at 75kph, I could still do plenty, but not enough to actually go through which caused a little pang of guilt. Not that we were ever going to catch the break after they'd blown the race apart a couple of minutes before when I needed more than the 38x28 I had at the back. Racing in wales can be rough!Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Chris Hoy rides a 52/14 for track sprinting so I doubt you'd need more than that for a road race. I have a 53/12 available but I don't think I've ever used it in a sprint, it's handy for downhills, but most finishes are uphill anyhow.0
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Tom Dean wrote:Straight through is best for flat crits if you can get one. I would expect to be around 16-17-18 in a 4th cat race so 12-23 is good for me. The 15-17 gap in a 11-25 feels massive.okgo wrote:I have been racing on a compact with a 12-25 (or maybe 11?) its fine, I can probably hit 40 mph on the flat, and have done 37 mph up hill at Hillingdon, neither time was I spinning out, and they are (at 3/4 level) race winning sprints in terms of speed. So do not worry about it. You'll be fine.
Oh have you won at Hillingdon? You never mentioned it before
Well it seems people can't actually read, and some of the guff that gets spouted on here needs to be countered by actual fact. And that is actual fact, why listen to someone who can't sprint or doesn't do crits to ask for advice on ratios?
Nah was just the groupset deal I got, if it was a compact I'd have gone with that, I may swap it some way down the line. And we'll duel in the hills soon Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
Ah right ok, your right.DavidJB wrote:oldwelshman wrote:
Thats a ridiculous comment, you did not spin out, you just couldn't spin fast enough, you need to spin faster.carbon337 wrote:I spun out a 12T with a 53 front in a local closed circuit 4th cat sprint - im getting a 11-25 on the new wheels.
I have yet to even find a decent in the UK where I have spun out on a 51 x 12.
You should be able to do at least 45 to 50mph before spinning out on such a high gear. If you try to sprint on such a high gear you will have to wind it up over 300m or more, Cav would hit 40mph or more in sprints on such a gear,I suspect you were going a lot slower than that.
12 21 straightthrough is a good choice.
You've yet to find a decent that you've spun out on? Then you're not going down any hills...unless you can spin your legs at 200+rpm or you've never been over 35MPH downhill.
OP I'm using 50/34 - 12-25 on my bike in crits and it's borderline ok on the sprint. I do need to change to 53/39 with a 12-25 cassette soon though.
Most nights I go out I hit 40mph either down dunstable downs hill, Berkhampstead, or Aston HIll, last night going down into Berkhampsted I was doing 35mph and was on 53 x 15.
If you want to see GArmin dat6a I can show you that I was doing 49mph on a decent into ivinghoe aston and was on edge of spinning out, sprinting for a sign and unfortunately crashed
you can see the resulting photo in link in my signature, so I guess you can say I do go down hills.
On the track I generally use 51 x 15 and have done 40mph in sprint, and done slighlty faster behind a derny,buit did not spin put.
I have yet to get near 40mph in a road sprint !0 -
seems like there seems to be confusion on the definition of spinning out, especially with beginners and 4th cats
IMO, spinning out is when your going so fast that your on your largest gear and the pedals are turning so fast you cannot keep up with your legs to produce any significant power into the pedals.
This is not the same as doing 30mph on a 53 x 11 and doing relatively low cadance and not able to get any more power out as you have reached your max max power.
I would be very surprised if any one on this forum actually spins out in a sprint on a 53 x 12 on a flat course sprint. If they do then they would beat CAv 0 -
oldwelshman wrote:seems like there seems to be confusion on the definition of spinning out, especially with beginners and 4th cats
IMO, spinning out is when your going so fast that your on your largest gear and the pedals are turning so fast you cannot keep up with your legs to produce any significant power into the pedals.
This is not the same as doing 30mph on a 53 x 11 and doing relatively low cadance and not able to get any more power out as you have reached your max max power.
I would be very surprised if any one on this forum actually spins out in a sprint on a 53 x 12 on a flat course sprint. If they do then they would beat CAv
+1
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Most people I know run a 11-23. As discussed above, you won't sprint in the 11, but you may chug along in it from time to time if you like the cadence. For example at Hog Hill I've run it with a 12-25 and an 11-23, and the 25 is never used, but the 11 is nice for the downhill part.0
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i once span out a 53-12 but that was on a slight downhill in the Belgian interclub, the rider infront kept pulling away and i couldn't get any closer to him, however in a flat sprint i doubt i would go past 13 on the back, alot of people sprint in a gear too high, i think a big part of sprinting, and why cav is so good is from spinning fast on the gear you are in as opposed to pushing a gear that is too big,0
