Girls in... threads and the lack of reasonable moderation

cornerblock

Greg66 wrote:

Well done, cave dwellers. Chapeau.

A woman posts that that the ogle threads discourage her from joining a club. The advice? Join a club.

Then that woman posts the rules that govern the site. Rules that you're supposed to know and abide by. And Larry, Curly and Mo reply with boredom and pictures.

Perhaps that is the problem. Words are just a bit too difficult for some people here. Pictures suit the level they operate at.

Words are not too difficult for me, just sometimes I find too many of them can have the opposite effect if you are trying to get a point across, something you should be fully aware of from the Commuting section. Would have been far better to just post the relevant points. As for your mentioning of the persons gender, as in "a woman". What has that got to do with anything? A long winded and boring post is just that, regardless of wether the sender is male or female.

And you really need to be careful when you try and take the moral high ground, especially when you are prone to rather child-like name calling, like cave dweller and such. Oh and what's the other one? Unemployed. Not sure why anyone would try to insult somebody by calling them that, are you mocking the fact that they in particular have not got a job? Or maybe you find unemployment in general a laughing matter? Either way it makes you sound a bit pompous.

And for the record I do have a job, one that does not allow me to sit around all day, loving the sound of my own keyboard and using a 100 words when 20 would do the job just as well.

citrus_

msmancunia wrote:

At what point did I suggest that the threads should be taken down for infringement of copyright?

That will be the bit where you said:

msmancunia wrote:

By posting, uploading and/or displaying any Content to the Website you warrant that: (a) you own all intellectual property and proprietary rights in such Content or that you have a licence from the owner of such rights to post, upload and/or display such Content on the Website; and (b) the posting, uploading and/or displaying of such Content on the Website and the grant of the licence to Future and its group companies (on the terms set out below) will not infringe the intellectual property or proprietary rights of any third party.

Kieran_Burns

Is it just that the well of 'titillation' shots has now dried up; and the pictures being displayed have tipped over the edge into inappropriate?

It seems that people had no issue earlier but now the general posting style in the 'Girls in...' threads is offending more and more?

If so, the existing rules seem to work and it's 'just' going to take more active moderation (and people hitting the RTM button - really this helps ENORMOUSLY) when they see a picture that is on the wrong side of tasteful.

Really though, this is meant to be a community and we're supposed to help keep it running: by posting, by posting within the rules and by actively HELPING when someone transgresses the rules.

It's like seeing someone commit an illegal act, ignoring and then complaining that the Police aren't doing their job properly.

Seems to me, that all we need do is get more actively involved ourselves and have some more active moderation from the site team.

msmancunia

No, I said,

Some of BRs possibly relevant Ts & Cs for those interested...

Then I posted the BR Ts & Cs for posting content. There's a bit of a difference there. I was pointing out that if BR ran this site to the letter (and I'm not suggesting they should), then strictly speaking, everyone whose C&P'ed a picture from the internet would be in breach.

tailwindhome

patchy wrote:

I look at some of the threads in question, mostly 'lycra shorts'. As someone's said upstream, it's 'lost its way' a bit recently: i think images on this thread are fine as long as a) they're not too pervy and b) they're at least tangentially bike related. Most of the others are unrepentant filth. My issue is with the proliferation of such threads - it's pretty disproportionate to the other content, and is a bit tiresome.

Do the posters voicing support of the Girls in Threads disagree with the statement above?

A small minority want the threads stopped altogether . A small minority want the status quo. I'd suggest that the statement above is a very well put summary of the majority view.

Cleat Eastwood

msmancunia wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

passionate about cycling and getting people into it. I want the place to succeed.

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

This +1. This is the reason why I haven't joined a cycling club. I don't want to pootle round a park on a Breeze ride riding a hybrid, and I don't really want to do a women's cycletta because the Tatton Park one is just once a year.. I want to join a bike club to do a regular decent run at a decent speed, but given the topics on some of here (just discovered the classic that's Cleat's "munters thread"), what exactly is there to encourage me (or any girl) to do that?

Seriously - you wont join a club because of a link on a forum? I'm not joking msmanc but you shouldnt be let anywhere near a keyboard let alone the internet. If cake stop shocks you wait till you hear the swearing as the men and women hit a 14% hill.

rhialto

No-one, no-one, has attempted to address the question I have posed several times now.

I am asking whether those who want to maintain the Girls in threads feel that the benefits of being able to post images of women outweigh the disadvantages of alienating other members who feel that the very popular (judging by posts) GirlsIn and xLovelies threads create an unwelcoming tone on the BR forums in general.

rozzer32

Why was the "Girls with helmet cameras" removed? I was trying to help the commuting people get a cake stop experience.

Not surprised it got removed at all haha

Why would a thread on a forum stop anyone from joining a club? Just because male cyclists post in a "Girls in..." thread doesn't mean every male cyclist is like that. From my club (around 150 members), I think there is myself and another guy who post on bikeradar (Hi Dave). Our club is very friendly and very welcoming with a fantastic group of people.

If you look at the people who post in the "Girls in.." threads like myself, cleat, matt etc and look at our post history you will see us offering good advice in road buying advice, workshop etc. We do try to help other members and give advice. But we also have a bit of banter and a bit of laugh in the cake stop. I don't think you can punish us for doing that.

msmancunia

Seriously - you wont join a club because of a link on a forum? I'm not joking msmanc but you shouldnt be let anywhere near a keyboard let alone the internet. If cake stop shocks you wait till you hear the swearing as the men and women hit a 14% hill.

Cleat - I think you're getting mixed up with "shocked" and "offended". I'm not shocked, but I am offended by some of the posts and comments. During my career I've worked as a chef, and in a national newsroom, both fairly male-dominated, even now. I've had my bum felt up at the stoves, been rubbed up against by someone with a hard-on whilst I was bending over a table, followed in a walk-in chiller and had my boobs and bits felt whilst his colleague lent against the door so I couldn't get out. Thirteen men once got their kn0bs out on the table and asked me to tell them which one would satisfy me best. I can hold my own - an elbow in the groin, a nasty little twist in the crotch, or in the case of the "kn0bs out" episode, I got out a cleaver. Sometimes you tell HR, sometimes you beat them at their own game, sometimes you tackle it with humour, sometimes you tell them to grow up/f*** off - I've done it all.

But it all gets so tiresome and wears you down. I don't have a problem with a lot of the posts/comments in the GI... threads. Some of the women in there are stunning (and I'm straight!). But there is a pack mentality in there, where a section of guys (I'm not saying all), seem to be competing with each other for the most risque/sexist comment, or the rudest picture, and nobody is pulling them up. Comments are no longer just appreciative, they can be really nasty and vindictive too. And because nobody is pulling them up, it makes me wonder just how many men agree with them, and it doesn't make for a very welcoming site. There is no "line" in there, where someone says, "hang on a minute, you're out of order", and I think there should be. So if it's like that on a website, what's to stop me thinking it's going to be like that in a cycling club?

And just so you know, I'm cycling the Atlas next month, where 14% hills will be but a dim and distant memory. I'll probably be sweating and swearing like the rest of the pack, but I'd like to think that I'd be doing it under my breath .

rideslikeagirl

D'you know what? After ploughing through all of this juvenality, i'm now of the opinion that if you can't play nicely together, your toys should be taken away completely. Close the threads. It *is* possible to post non-demeaning pictures of attractive members of any gender without being obnoxious, sexist or otherwise offensive, but as usual, the few have ruined it for the many by going waaaay over the top - see for instance the images of bare boobs and implied masturbation in the 'knitwear' thread.

Get rid of the whole lot... Its the only way to be sure...

msmancunia

rozzer32 wrote:

Why was the "Girls with helmet cameras" removed? I was trying to help the commuting people get a cake stop experience.

Not surprised it got removed at all haha

Why would a thread on a forum stop anyone from joining a club? Just because male cyclists post in a "Girls in..." thread doesn't mean every male cyclist is like that. From my club (around 150 members), I think there is myself and another guy who post on bikeradar (Hi Dave). Our club is very friendly and very welcoming with a fantastic group of people.

If you look at the people who post in the "Girls in.." threads like myself, cleat, matt etc and look at our post history you will see us offering good advice in road buying advice, workshop etc. We do try to help other members and give advice. But we also have a bit of banter and a bit of laugh in the cake stop. I don't think you can punish us for doing that.

I'm glad your club is friendly - I'd hope they all are. But is this your experience, or that of the women members? How many girls does your club have? Do they have the same experience as you? Do you act the same there as you do in CS or do you maybe temper what you say? And those aren't digs - I AM genuinely interested in your opinion.

rozzer32

msmancunia wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

Why was the "Girls with helmet cameras" removed? I was trying to help the commuting people get a cake stop experience.

Not surprised it got removed at all haha

Why would a thread on a forum stop anyone from joining a club? Just because male cyclists post in a "Girls in..." thread doesn't mean every male cyclist is like that. From my club (around 150 members), I think there is myself and another guy who post on bikeradar (Hi Dave). Our club is very friendly and very welcoming with a fantastic group of people.

If you look at the people who post in the "Girls in.." threads like myself, cleat, matt etc and look at our post history you will see us offering good advice in road buying advice, workshop etc. We do try to help other members and give advice. But we also have a bit of banter and a bit of laugh in the cake stop. I don't think you can punish us for doing that.

I'm glad your club is friendly - I'd hope they all are. But is this your experience, or that of the women members? How many girls does your club have? Do they have the same experience as you? Do you act the same there as you do in CS or do you maybe temper what you say? And those aren't digs - I AM genuinely interested in your opinion.

I'm not sure the exact number of women to men but there are quite a lot of women in our club. I'd probably say about 60/40 ratio men to women. Yes I'm sure they do have the same experience as me with the club, otherwise I'm guessing they wouldn't keep renewing there membership with the club.

Temper what I say, hmmmm obviously out on a ride I'm not like "hey have you checked out the girls in.. threads on bike radar??" but if they say something and there is a bit of an innuendo then I probably will say it as long as it directed at them. Like I'd probably say "oohhhh that's what she said" but it's a bit different. Like you are not going to say the same things to women on a club as you would with your mates down the pub.

Like you would you tell your parents how good the guy you're dating is in bed? Probably not but you might discuss it with your girl friends when out for a drink.

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

Cleat Eastwood

msmancunia wrote:

Seriously - you wont join a club because of a link on a forum? I'm not joking msmanc but you shouldnt be let anywhere near a keyboard let alone the internet. If cake stop shocks you wait till you hear the swearing as the men and women hit a 14% hill.

Cleat - I think you're getting mixed up with "shocked" and "offended". I'm not shocked, but I am offended by some of the posts and comments. During my career I've worked as a chef, and in a national newsroom, both fairly male-dominated, even now. I've had my bum felt up at the stoves, been rubbed up against by someone with a hard-on whilst I was bending over a table, followed in a walk-in chiller and had my boobs and bits felt whilst his colleague lent against the door so I couldn't get out. Thirteen men once got their kn0bs out on the table and asked me to tell them which one would satisfy me best. I can hold my own - an elbow in the groin, a nasty little twist in the crotch, or in the case of the "kn0bs out" episode, I got out a cleaver. Sometimes you tell HR, sometimes you beat them at their own game, sometimes you tackle it with humour, sometimes you tell them to grow up/f*** off - I've done it all.

But it all gets so tiresome and wears you down. I don't have a problem with a lot of the posts/comments in the GI... threads. Some of the women in there are stunning (and I'm straight!). But there is a pack mentality in there, where a section of guys (I'm not saying all), seem to be competing with each other for the most risque/sexist comment, or the rudest picture, and nobody is pulling them up. Comments are no longer just appreciative, they can be really nasty and vindictive too. And because nobody is pulling them up, it makes me wonder just how many men agree with them, and it doesn't make for a very welcoming site. There is no "line" in there, where someone says, "hang on a minute, you're out of order", and I think there should be. So if it's like that on a website, what's to stop me thinking it's going to be like that in a cycling club?

And just so you know, I'm cycling the Atlas next month, where 14% hills will be but a dim and distant memory. I'll probably be sweating and swearing like the rest of the pack, but I'd like to think that I'd be doing it under my breath .

Ah ok, that makes more sense - so what you're saying is it's the tone thats off putting, not necessarily the threads presence. Ok, now that I can see, that makes a lot of sense - why didnt people say that in the first place.

What I found interesting about the thread was that when it began in about 2005 when the forum was cycling plus, the first few pages were imageless, mostly it was banter and blokey/jokiness - and to some extent this has continued, but like you say lines can be crossed, and it appears to some they lines most definitely have. And in fairness I think thats been tacitly acknowledged by some - hence the Girls in Eccles cakes, or the munters thread - its like recognising the absurdity of the situation without being too - for want of a better word - serious.

To be honest yes some of the comments in those threads can be seen as being crass, but my take is that theyre just unimaginative rather than vengeful, but who knows I may be wrong- we can only read the same words and interpret them as we see fit - and I dont think many from the road section would try and justify any comment that causes genuine upset.

If you were a long time user of the cake stop though what you'd see is that posts to the GiL are actually very sparse, maybe a few new ones over a week, and the banter they generate is much part of the thread as anything else - so maybe whats needed is moderation over the bantering language thats used - as with anything thats become familiar often shock is used to re-invigorate it and give it life - maybe thats all that happened with the threads - a use of shock to try and invigorate something that has become over familiar. But as long as my munters thread stays I'll be happy.

Hehe as for the c0cks on tables I get that all the time - but I've had 20 thrust at me - mind you it was me own fault - I did order c0ck au Vingt

rhialto

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

So one of the latest comments on the Dark Haired Lovelies thread was, "I just want her to tell me if my handkerchief smells like Rohypnol". This is appropriate? We should just stay out of the thread and those who enjoy this can have a laugh? Really? Really?

rozzer32

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

So one of the latest comments on the Dark Haired Lovelies thread was, "I just want her to tell me if my handkerchief smells like Rohypnol". This is appropriate? We should just stay out of the thread and those who enjoy this can have a laugh? Really? Really?

Well that did actually make me laugh. Someone please inform the police as obviously I now agree with rape and am a rapist. It's banter and here is an explanation for you http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=banter

These comments aren't meant to be taken seriously. Yes some people do cross the line. You didn't like the comment above, did you report it? If you feel lines have been crossed then report it and tell the mods how you feel. They will then remove it and you can be happy again

msmancunia

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

So one of the latest comments on the Dark Haired Lovelies thread was, "I just want her to tell me if my handkerchief smells like Rohypnol". This is appropriate? We should just stay out of the thread and those who enjoy this can have a laugh? Really? Really?

No, that definitely isn't appropriate, and if it was posted after this whole issue kicked off then I'd suspect it's been posted by someone looking to get a rise out of someone else. If the guys want self-moderation, then self-moderate. But pictures of Vicky P showing a bit of leg (in lycra, obviously!) - I don't have a problem with that.

rhialto

rozzer32 wrote:

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

So one of the latest comments on the Dark Haired Lovelies thread was, "I just want her to tell me if my handkerchief smells like Rohypnol". This is appropriate? We should just stay out of the thread and those who enjoy this can have a laugh? Really? Really?

These comments aren't meant to be taken seriously. Yes some people do cross the line. You didn't like the comment above, did you report it? If you feel lines have been crossed then report it and tell the mods how you feel. They will then remove it and you can be happy again

Date rape is never funny.

And how do I stay out of the thread while still reporting posts?

msmancunia

Ah ok, that makes more sense - so what you're saying is it's the tone thats off putting, not necessarily the threads presence. Ok, now that I can see, that makes a lot of sense - why didnt people say that in the first place.

What I found interesting about the thread was that when it began in about 2005 when the forum was cycling plus, the first few pages were imageless, mostly it was banter and blokey/jokiness - and to some extent this has continued, but like you say lines can be crossed, and it appears to some they lines most definitely have. And in fairness I think thats been tacitly acknowledged by some - hence the Girls in Eccles cakes, or the munters thread - its like recognising the absurdity of the situation without being too - for want of a better word - serious.

To be honest yes some of the comments in those threads can be seen as being crass, but my take is that theyre just unimaginative rather than vengeful, but who knows I may be wrong- we can only read the same words and interpret them as we see fit - and I dont think many from the road section would try and justify any comment that causes genuine upset.

If you were a long time user of the cake stop though what you'd see is that posts to the GiL are actually very sparse, maybe a few new ones over a week, and the banter they generate is much part of the thread as anything else - so maybe whats needed is moderation over the bantering language thats used - as with anything thats become familiar often shock is used to re-invigorate it and give it life - maybe thats all that happened with the threads - a use of shock to try and invigorate something that has become over familiar. But as long as my munters thread stays I'll be happy.

Hehe as for the c0cks on tables I get that all the time - but I've had 20 thrust at me - mind you it was me own fault - I did order c0ck au Vingt

Yes, it's the tone, and in some cases the suitability of some of the photos that I have a problem with. I'm realistic enough to know that men will look at pictures of boobs and bums till the world comes to an end, but a bit of respect (and I use that word warily as it's very over-used these days) would go a long way. I don't think anyone is really saying get rid of the threads - my opinion is, self-moderate, be nice, and if you can't do that, THEN get rid of the threads. I think a girl mod (not that I'm offering) to give a bit of perspective/be a voice of reason would be a massive help.

And as for your last comment, that's made this hairy feminist, man-hating, burn-your-bra lesbian that's about as far away from the real me as it's possible to be laugh so much I spat out my Crunchy Nut (ooer - see what I did there?) It will continue to do so in about an hour when I WTFU and tackle Blackstone Edge, not sweating, and uttering the most politically correct curses I can muster.

rozzer32

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

So one of the latest comments on the Dark Haired Lovelies thread was, "I just want her to tell me if my handkerchief smells like Rohypnol". This is appropriate? We should just stay out of the thread and those who enjoy this can have a laugh? Really? Really?

These comments aren't meant to be taken seriously. Yes some people do cross the line. You didn't like the comment above, did you report it? If you feel lines have been crossed then report it and tell the mods how you feel. They will then remove it and you can be happy again

Date rape is never funny.

And how do I stay out of the thread while still reporting posts?

But you knew what the thread was about, and if you didn't look at the thread then you wouldn't have seen the post and you wouldn't have been offended. Then we wouldn't have to have this debate about it.

t.m.h.n.e.t

How about!

Cut the number of Girls in_ threads to 1

Where possible/applicable/acceptable - work with BR staff to draft a universally agreed ruleset and apply them to all forums,perhaps an exemption needed for threads of a more adult nature. (should the thread be kept) And if we (the users) help write them,then there can be no confusion or misunderstandings.

A good example would be: No pics portraying "calls of nature" - no visible nipples - no visible crotch areas yet that is not exhaustive.

msmancunia

rozzer32 wrote:

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with the argument that if you don't like the threads then don't look at them. You know what material they contain and it is your fault if you keep looking at them.

So one of the latest comments on the Dark Haired Lovelies thread was, "I just want her to tell me if my handkerchief smells like Rohypnol". This is appropriate? We should just stay out of the thread and those who enjoy this can have a laugh? Really? Really?

These comments aren't meant to be taken seriously. Yes some people do cross the line. You didn't like the comment above, did you report it? If you feel lines have been crossed then report it and tell the mods how you feel. They will then remove it and you can be happy again

Date rape is never funny.

And how do I stay out of the thread while still reporting posts?

But you knew what the thread was about, and if you didn't look at the thread then you wouldn't have seen the post and you wouldn't have been offended. Then we wouldn't have to have this debate about it.

Just a thought, Rozzer32 - maybe some of the people who browse the Girls in... threads for enjoyment/sexual titilation/whatever - aren't of the hetero persuasion? There are plenty of women who swing the same way as you, but don't want the comments to go with the pictures . Equal opportunities, and all that? Maybe they enjoy the pictures just as much as you, but don't feel comfortable complaining. Just saying.

rozzer32

I'm still with if you don't like the threads don't look at them, but I agree that a new set of rules would be good and it would make sure everyone knew the limits and was reading off the same page.

Even make a new mod whose job is purely just to make sure these "Girls in.." threads don't go too far.

rozzer32

msmancunia wrote:

Just a thought, Rozzer32 - maybe some of the people who browse the Girls in... threads for enjoyment/sexual titilation/whatever - aren't of the hetero persuasion? There are plenty of women who swing the same way as you, but don't want the comments to go with the pictures . Equal opportunities, and all that? Maybe they enjoy the pictures just as much as you, but don't feel comfortable complaining. Just saying.

That my dear is a very fair point.

cornerblock

What this thread needs is a musical interlude, it's horrible outside and we need something to brighten things up.

Enjoy, don't worry it's safe for anywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CymeqRc8w8

rhialto

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with if you don't like the threads don't look at them, but I agree that a new set of rules would be good and it would make sure everyone knew the limits and was reading off the same page.

Can you answer my previous question? Do the benefits of maintaining the threads in question outweigh the disadvantages of alienating some members who perceive them as creating an unwelcoming atmosphere?

Are they that important to you or are you objecting to what you perceive as censorship? Because if the majority of members want to keep them and the site owner allows it, then I will bow out of the discussion. And possibly the whole site. (I know, save the jokes, I won't be missed and all that).

rozzer32

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with if you don't like the threads don't look at them, but I agree that a new set of rules would be good and it would make sure everyone knew the limits and was reading off the same page.

Can you answer my previous question? Do the benefits of maintaining the threads in question outweigh the disadvantages of alienating some members who perceive them as creating an unwelcoming atmosphere?

Are they that important to you or are you objecting to what you perceive as censorship? Because if the majority of members want to keep them and the site owner allows it, then I will bow out of the discussion. And possibly the whole site. (I know, save the jokes, I won't be missed and all that).

I want the threads to stay. Who's with me?

rozzer32

This thread has gone a bit off topic. Time to get back on topic.

http://hardcorecorn.com/

Hopefully people will find this funny.

t.m.h.n.e.t

rozzer32 wrote:

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with if you don't like the threads don't look at them, but I agree that a new set of rules would be good and it would make sure everyone knew the limits and was reading off the same page.

Can you answer my previous question? Do the benefits of maintaining the threads in question outweigh the disadvantages of alienating some members who perceive them as creating an unwelcoming atmosphere?

Are they that important to you or are you objecting to what you perceive as censorship? Because if the majority of members want to keep them and the site owner allows it, then I will bow out of the discussion. And possibly the whole site. (I know, save the jokes, I won't be missed and all that).

I want the threads to stay. Who's with me?

STAY - +rules and extra mods

rhialto

Ok, so 2 have expressed an opinion to maintain the threads. But is my previous question too difficult to answer? Do the benefits of maintaining the threads in question outweigh the disadvantages of alienating some members who perceive them as creating an unwelcoming atmosphere?

I am genuinely interested in the answer.

cornerblock

dpaulett wrote:

rozzer32 wrote:

I'm still with if you don't like the threads don't look at them, but I agree that a new set of rules would be good and it would make sure everyone knew the limits and was reading off the same page.

Can you answer my previous question? Do the benefits of maintaining the threads in question outweigh the disadvantages of alienating some members who perceive them as creating an unwelcoming atmosphere?

Are they that important to you or are you objecting to what you perceive as censorship? Because if the majority of members want to keep them and the site owner allows it, then I will bow out of the discussion. And possibly the whole site. (I know, save the jokes, I won't be missed and all that).

So let me get this right. You will possibly bow out of the whole site, if the parts of it that you do not like are not removed? If you have found them so distasteful why wait until March 2012 to make this known. And why even bother making the announcement, just go if you want to.