Girls in... threads and the lack of reasonable moderation

supersonic

OT areas to me are an integral part of the forum. Obviously they create a lot of traffic in the said areas, but encourage posts elsewhere and create lasting communities. Without them the place would feel cold which would push many users away. They do however need an extension to the rules, or even the rules rewritten to accomodate them.

supersonic

The true comparator would the site owner

Wouldn't surprise me if the site owner is laughing at that silly sod called supersonic who is doing all this work in his own time ;-)

Truth is I do care about the site, and am passionate about cycling and getting people into it. I want the place to succeed.

I am not employed by Future - the stuff I do for What Mountain Bike, though regular, is freelance.

greg66_tri_v2.0

supersonic wrote:

passionate about cycling and getting people into it. I want the place to succeed.

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Oh, and the "invasion" of Commuting Chat by the pro-girls in thread brigade: v droll.

Trouble is, you don't know about our secret weapon: mybreakfastconsisted. We're going to send him over to your forums, and he's gonna cut and paste your sorry asses into next Wednesday. You will be *begging* us to call him off.

I'm not joking about that last bit. Really.

cat_with_no_tail

supersonic wrote:

OT areas to me are an integral part of the forum. Obviously they create a lot of traffic in the said areas, but encourage posts elsewhere and create lasting communities. Without them the place would feel cold which would push many users away. They do however need an extension to the rules, or even the rules rewritten to accomodate them.

I very much enjoy the OT areas, it's one of the things I like most about the site. I can come along, ask someone in the know what groupset to buy, then ask how to fix my brakes, then comment on my favourite riding location, then go and have some OT banter with mates and discuss bacons etc. All in the same place.

I've met quite a few good mates through this site, and the OT areas are a good way for everyone to keep in touch, considering we are spread all over the UK (and further afield).

Would it not help to have seperate OT areas, like we do in MTB? One for normal people, and one for retards lke me and my cruddy buddies. Complete with "Parental Guidance! Abandon all hope ye who enter here" health warning attached.

As far as I'm aware that works pretty well, right?

fizz

Greg66 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

and that is the best summary of the last 11 pages I've read, its exactly what some of the problem is. Its also impossible to write a set of rules or criteria that cover that sort of thing off.

IMHO

supersonic

Would it not help to have seperate OT areas, like we do in MTB? One for normal people, and one for retards lke me and my cruddy buddies. Complete with "Parental Guidance! Abandon all hope ye who enter here" health warning attached.

As far as I'm aware that works pretty well, right?

It does seem to work in the MTB section: I specifically created The Hub for people who wanted a light hearted, friendly place to chat and form serious discussion without the risk of running into people like you ;-). I did the same with Commuting, but in somewhat a different way and purpose, and the areas have been succesful.

It may be an option for the Road side of things. But some of the issues will still remain, not least the fact that some want threads containing all forms of pictures as such mentioned here banned. And if we do introduce two distinct areas, the rules would need updating (including in our own section).

Many just don't want this sort of stuff associated with cycling nor the abiilty for minors to stumble on the content.

supersonic

fizz wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

and that is the best summary of the last 11 pages I've read, its exactly what some of the problem is. Its also impossible to write a set of rules or criteria that cover that sort of thing off.

IMHO

I think the quoting facility went wrong, would like to add I don't have any daughters lol!

rhialto

Greg66 wrote:

...I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

This. Thanks, Greg66, for putting it so succinctly.

Pseudonym

Cat With No Tail wrote:

I've met quite a few good mates through this site, and the OT areas are a good way for everyone to keep in touch, considering we are spread all over the UK (and further afield).

so when you meet your mates in real life, presumably you swap pictures of naked women and shout "tits out!" to any females you see on the trail..??

MattC59

This whole discussion really is plumeting headlong into face palm territory.

tailwindhome

MattC59 wrote:

This whole discussion really is plumeting headlong into face palm territory.

You may want to wash your hand first....

cat_with_no_tail

supersonic wrote:

[ And if we do introduce two distinct areas, the rules would need updating (including in our own section).

Many just don't want this sort of stuff associated with cycling nor the abiilty for minors to stumble on the content.

When you say the rules would need updating, updating how? It's already stated in the rules there should be no pictures containing nudity. And I've seen you remove posts that have contained nips (and have also seen you ban people for linking to porn). I'd not really have any opinions either way about the girls in... threads vanishing, as I stay away from the dark side (roadies scare me). But I'd be concerned bout what it opens the door for. If we get rid of those threads because they offend a few people who are old enough to just not look, what's next? Doping threads because of possible references to drug taking? The "ibis owners" thread in case it offends ibis owners, or people who can't afford one? Where do you stop? At the risk of going all Daily Mail on you: It's PC gone mad.

The thing about minors I can understand however. God knows I'd not want my kids seeing most of what goes on in the crudcatcher.

Could we not have an area of the forum you can only see when the system recognizes you as being 16 (as we already have to tick a box confirming that when we join).

As for the comment about people avoiding running into people like me. I am highly offended at that comment. I am disgusted that you have discriminated against me in such a fashion.

Iz it coz I iz Manx?

MattC59

TailWindHome wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

This whole discussion really is plumeting headlong into face palm territory.

You may want to wash your hand first....

cat_with_no_tail

Pseudonym wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

I've met quite a few good mates through this site, and the OT areas are a good way for everyone to keep in touch, considering we are spread all over the UK (and further afield).

so when you meet your mates in real life, presumably you swap pictures of naked women and shout "tits out!" to any females you see on the trail..??

I'll try and make this very clear for the hard of thinking amongst you.

There are no naked pictures of anyone on this site. If there are, they will be (quite rightly) removed and the responsible people warned or banned as necessary by modmins.

I don't swap naked pictures (or semi-naked pictures) of anyone, with anyone, on here or elsewhere. Find one post where I have done so. Please.

I have never felt the need to shout "tits out!" to anyone, anywhere, ever.

I can be extremely offensive when I want to be, and when the situation allows / calls for it. However (and this especially applies when posting online) it's always made abundantly clear there is no malice behind my comments.

supersonic

Cat With No Tail wrote:

supersonic wrote:

[ And if we do introduce two distinct areas, the rules would need updating (including in our own section).

Many just don't want this sort of stuff associated with cycling nor the abiilty for minors to stumble on the content.

When you say the rules would need updating, updating how? It's already stated in the rules there should be no pictures containing nudity. And I've seen you remove posts that have contained nips (and have also seen you ban people for linking to porn). I'd not really have any opinions either way about the girls in... threads vanishing, as I stay away from the dark side (roadies scare me). But I'd be concerned bout what it opens the door for. If we get rid of those threads because they offend a few people who are old enough to just not look, what's next? Doping threads because of possible references to drug taking? The "ibis owners" thread in case it offends ibis owners, or people who can't afford one? Where do you stop? At the risk of going all Daily Mail on you: It's PC gone mad.

The thing about minors I can understand however. God knows I'd not want my kids seeing most of what goes on in the crudcatcher.

Could we not have an area of the forum you can only see when the system recognizes you as being 16 (as we already have to tick a box confirming that when we join).

As for the comment about people avoiding running into people like me. I am highly offended at that comment. I am disgusted that you have discriminated against me in such a fashion.

Iz it coz I iz Manx?

There is a lack of visible rules in the Road Section (and commuting), especially in the OT areas which requires an extension of the main rules - any change to the areas, especially concerning the outcome of this thread, will require some additional work or clarification.

There is always the risk of over moderating. It comes back to trying to find some form of happy medium.

I think some rules are open to interpretation, so a more robust general set would be beneficial.

citrus_

Long time lurker/rare poster here.

Im amazed that this is even being discussed to be honest. The way the system is of "no swearing but girls in bikinis and similar is fine" is exactly the same as what you will find in any media, be it television before the watershed, or newspapers, or advertisements etc etc.

kentphil

The girls in threads do not have any illegal or porno pics in them, you see more bare flesh in page 3 i think!

If people find them offensive why keep looking at them?

msmancunia

Greg66 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

passionate about cycling and getting people into it. I want the place to succeed.

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

This +1. This is the reason why I haven't joined a cycling club. I don't want to pootle round a park on a Breeze ride riding a hybrid, and I don't really want to do a women's cycletta because the Tatton Park one is just once a year.. I want to join a bike club to do a regular decent run at a decent speed, but given the topics on some of here (just discovered the classic that's Cleat's "munters thread"), what exactly is there to encourage me (or any girl) to do that?

rozzer32

msmancunia wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

passionate about cycling and getting people into it. I want the place to succeed.

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

This +1. This is the reason why I haven't joined a cycling club. I don't want to pootle round a park on a Breeze ride riding a hybrid, and I don't really want to do a women's cycletta because the Tatton Park one is just once a year.. I want to join a bike club to do a regular decent run at a decent speed, but given the topics on some of here (just discovered the classic that's Cleat's "munters thread"), what exactly is there to encourage me (or any girl) to do that?

This will be useful http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/clubfinder

Seriously if you want to join a club then go along for a ride, I'm sure they will be very friendly and make you very welcome. We all love cycling hence why we use the forum and I don't think any of us want to stop people from enjoying the sport. Plus if you do join a club then you'll no doubt get fitter and you'll have less time to keep looking at the threads you find offensive, and then look at them again, and then complain about them.

msmancunia

Some of BRs possibly relevant Ts & Cs for those interested...

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rozzer32

Really? Someone please tell me that just didn't happen.

cornerblock

Thanks msmancunia, that will come in very handy if I ever have trouble sleeping.

MattC59

Cleat Eastwood

greg66_tri_v2.0

Well done, cave dwellers. Chapeau.

A woman posts that that the ogle threads discourage her from joining a club. The advice? Join a club.

Then that woman posts the rules that govern the site. Rules that you're supposed to know and abide by. And Larry, Curly and Mo reply with boredom and pictures.

Perhaps that is the problem. Words are just a bit too difficult for some people here. Pictures suit the level they operate at.

patchy

Wow. I'm a little amazed that I've actually read through all this lot. Some interesting points. Here's my thruppence, as Supersonic asked for more feedback

Regular reader/irregular poster on Road forums, occasionally other forums too. Male. I look at some of the threads in question, mostly 'lycra shorts'. As someone's said upstream, it's 'lost its way' a bit recently: i think images on this thread are fine as long as a) they're not too pervy and b) they're at least tangentially bike related. Most of the others are unrepentant filth. My issue is with the proliferation of such threads - it's pretty disproportionate to the other content, and is a bit tiresome.

To institute harsher rules on the number and content of the existing threads brings with it a ton of problems - what those rules are, the inevitable backlash from more enthusiastic users (already happening), and an enhanced need to monitor said forums for people pushing the envelope. Not ideal.

My vote's for creating an 'unrated' forum in Road which stuff like this can be posted - which does have clear ground rules in a sticky thread at the top, and just stick anything NSFW in there (whether that's pictures of boobies or more 'adult' discussion that crops up in other forums). Keeps the pervs and the more general user happy(ish).

The real question is - what road cycling related punny name could you give the adult forum? The Hand Pump?

Blonde Cyclist

msmancunia wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

passionate about cycling and getting people into it. I want the place to succeed.

So do I. a few years a go I would have been more agnostic about this sort of thing. But I have daughters who are 10 and 12 and who ride a reasonable amount, and I want to encourage them to ride more. I would not prefer them not to come here in a few years time and discover that cyclists need pictures that objectify women to keep their online community together.

This +1. This is the reason why I haven't joined a cycling club. I don't want to pootle round a park on a Breeze ride riding a hybrid, and I don't really want to do a women's cycletta because the Tatton Park one is just once a year.. I want to join a bike club to do a regular decent run at a decent speed, but given the topics on some of here (just discovered the classic that's Cleat's "munters thread"), what exactly is there to encourage me (or any girl) to do that?

MsMancunia, if you want to I'd say go for it. My club (like most) is pretty male dominated, but does not have the atmosphere of some of the cakestop threads. In fact the men are really supportive although often cheeky and constantly push me to get better.

In terms of my views (yes, I have been to cakestop on multiple occasions although not sure I've ever posted), I think the Girls in threads tread a very fine line. At the moment I feel they have fallen to the distasteful side of that line both in terms of the number and also the pictures being posted. I think one or two more threads of a tasteful nature would be fine (I.e. Clearly bike related, not overtly sexual etc). At the moment I can feel a little uncomfortable in cakestop, not necessarily offended (but then as several people have suggested I do try and avoid those threads). It would be nice to feel welcome in all areas of the forum.

citrus_

Greg66 wrote:

Perhaps that is the problem. Words are just a bit too difficult for some people here. Pictures suit the level they operate at.

Allow me to translate the pictures for you then Greg.

Basically this whole thing started because some people were offended by the content in some of the threads. Then msmancunia posts suggesting that the threads should be taken down not for causing offence, but for being against copyright law, not having permission from the model etc.

Although this is a fair enough point, it is a completely different one to the origin of this whole topic, somewhat missing the point.

To add to that, its not even just the "girls in" threads that this affects. It even affects things like the "helmet camera" thread, because I presume those posters dont have written permission from everybody they film.

Hence facepalm.

msmancunia

citrus wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

Perhaps that is the problem. Words are just a bit too difficult for some people here. Pictures suit the level they operate at.

Allow me to translate the pictures for you then Greg.

Basically this whole thing started because some people were offended by the content in some of the threads. Then msmancunia posts suggesting that the threads should be taken down not for causing offence, but for being against copyright law, not having permission from the model etc.

Although this is a fair enough point, it is a completely different one to the origin of this whole topic, somewhat missing the point.

To add to that, its not even just the "girls in" threads that this affects. It even affects things like the "helmet camera" thread, because I presume those posters dont have written permission from everybody they film.

Hence facepalm.

I'm sorry, but your translation (and other people's understanding of the Ts and Cs post) is off the mark. At what point did I suggest that the threads should be taken down for infringement of copyright? I posted Ts & Cs that were also relevant to the issue. I wanted to make the point that the owners already have a set of rules for this place, and people are probably not aware that they seem to be tighter than we are all aware of. If they wanted to enforce these (and I'm not suggesting for a minute that they should) then they could do. So please don't put words in my mouth which I haven't said.