folding versus beaded

sandy771

Any advantage/disadvantage of the two types of tyre.

Just got a beaded nevegal 2.5" stickE to replace my front nobby nic and wondered whether there was/is a downside to beaded.

nicklouse

a folding tyre still has a bead.

folding tend to be a lighter and better made tyre.

IBISMojoHDamon

Folding normally have a Kevlar Bead to them rather than wire, thus resulting (typically) in a lighter tire, thus reducing rolling resistance = Easier to climb, accelerate, maintain speed and generally be a better ride as you will have less rotating mass...
The Kenda Nevagal is a great tire in a 2.10 format but a 2.5, will be slow and heavy and if it's beaded with a wire bead, I would of thought be around twice as heavy as a Nobby Nic.

Too late now so apologies for this, but check on Continental X Kings, 2.4 are wide enough for everything other than full on DH (in my opinion)

The Rookie

The bead of course has no effect on rolling resistance AT ALL, but it does affect weight so you'll climb a little slower and accelerate a little slower and not be able to 'manhandle' the bike quite as well and reducing unsprung weight helps any suspension.

Also some manufacturers use inferior compounds on wire bead versus Kevlar bead, but not all, also you can have OE fit and aftermarket versions which may also have different compounds.

Simon

The Spiderman

I remember going from OE wire beaded 2.1 Nevegals to Nobby Nic Evos.It was massively better after,carcass was more forgiving so the ride was noticeably more supple,but I couldn`t belive how much livelier the bike felt with nearly a pound in weight shed from the wheels.More fragile but I was more than happy with the trade off.

IBISMojoHDamon

The Beginner wrote:

The bead of course has no effect on rolling resistance AT ALL, but it does affect weight so you'll climb a little slower and accelerate a little slower and not be able to 'manhandle' the bike quite as well and reducing unsprung weight helps any suspension.

Also some manufacturers use inferior compounds on wire bead versus Kevlar bead, but not all, also you can have OE fit and aftermarket versions which may also have different compounds.

Simon

I beg to differ.... If a tire is heavier (i.e. Rotational mass) then it will roll slower than a lighter tire.... The bead affects weight, weight affects rolling resistance... thus making a heavier tire roll slower.

cooldad

Rolling resistance has nothing to do with the weight of the tyre. It has to do with the contact patch of the tyre.
You notice it with big knobbie tyres as well - the tyre has to 'climb' the knobs.
A heavier tyre would actually roll faster downhill once the initial inertia is overcome. Gravity and all that.

cooldad

Which is not to say that kevlar bead lighter tyres aren't better.

nicklouse

IBISMojoHDamon wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

The bead of course has no effect on rolling resistance AT ALL, but it does affect weight so you'll climb a little slower and accelerate a little slower and not be able to 'manhandle' the bike quite as well and reducing unsprung weight helps any suspension.

Also some manufacturers use inferior compounds on wire bead versus Kevlar bead, but not all, also you can have OE fit and aftermarket versions which may also have different compounds.

Simon

I beg to differ.... If a tire is heavier (i.e. Rotational mass) then it will roll slower than a lighter tire.... The bead affects weight, weight affects rolling resistance... thus making a heavier tire roll slower.

It has no effect on ROLLING RESISTANCE yes it can effect the change in the rates of acceleration.
They are two very different things.

RevellRider

Rolling resistance has more to do with tyre size, compound and pressure than it does with weight.

Do you think less than 50 grammes would make a noticeable difference to something like a High Roller?

IBISMojoHDamon

If you were to have 2 tires the same, one with kevlar bead, say a Maxxis High Roller 2.35, you are telling me that it would be the same speed as a Wire beaded (i.e. heavier) Maxxis High Roller 2.35?....

Same surface, same pressures, same compound, on the flat (not DH / Uphill) you are saying that it would have the same resistance as a wire tire?...

Not convinced I'm afraid...

The Rookie

Well it's physics, the rolling resistance is just that, resistance to rolling, that is all a function of the distortion of the tread and carcass, as the bead is wrapped round a rigid rim it doesn't distort.....you may not be convinced, but that doesn't make you right, just unable to graps what is happeneing I'm afraid!

Simon

RevellRider

Yes, the same amount of force would be required to move it at the same speed. It will require more force to change speed, be it deceleration or acceleration.

IBISMojoHDamon

The Beginner wrote:

Well it's physics, the rolling resistance is just that, resistance to rolling, that is all a function of the distortion of the tread and carcass, as the bead is wrapped round a rigid rim it doesn't distort.....you may not be convinced, but that doesn't make you right, just unable to graps what is happeneing I'm afraid!

Simon

Patronizing sarcasm, love it!.... Shame it was ruined with the spelling of grasp and happening!.... ;0)

RevellRider

He's still right

IBISMojoHDamon

In that case I stand corrected, A lighter weight tire would be easier to accelerate and decelerate because the rotational mass would be easier to get started and then stop but the rolling resistance would be the same....

Although, (even if I'm wrong), I still believe that a heavier weighted tire / wheel / rim / tube etc etc would need to have more effort put in than a lighter (same as above) in order to maintain the same speed...

cooldad

Wrong again. A heavier tyre would need more energy to accelerate, but less to maintain the same speed - see flywheel effect or polar moment of inertia. This is a function of mass and diameter.

IBISMojoHDamon

http://biketechreview.com/reviews/wheel ... erformance

cooldad

Interesting.
And your point is?

IBISMojoHDamon

cooldad wrote:

Interesting.
And your point is?

It was just clarification on the issue, I wasn't out to prove a point.

cooldad

I don't see it as clarification. In fact I think he has missed or ignored some key factors, and judging by the comments, I'm in the majority.

nicklouse

IBISMojoHDamon wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Interesting.
And your point is?

It was just clarification on the issue, I wasn't out to prove a point.

And what doesn't clarify?

It just seems to mix up and confuse.

IBISMojoHDamon

From my understanding of wheels, and I'm sure you'll be quick to point out if I'm wrong, but lighter weight wheels are better as they are easier to get up to speed and maintain speed, otherwise why would they use alloy wheels on cars (Carbon wheels on some) or Magnesium wheels on motor bikes if they weren't 'better'...

And when I say 'better', I'm talking about performance benefits, not just aesthetically better...

Not sure whether it was Audi or BMW that were marketing lighter weight wheels as economically better but one of them was...

The way that I read the article, was that aerodynamics and lighter weight wheels benefited performance over heavier etc wheels... Unless it's just late, I'm tired and just want to see what I want to read

supersonic

All else being equal:

- A lighter beaded tyre will gain speed at a higher rate (accelerate) than a heavier bead for a given input.

- It follows that it takes less input to gain a certain speed with a lighter bead.

- The differences can be very small.

- To maintain a constant velocity, the energy input is EQUAL. (on the flat)

- To decellerate, the heavier bead requires more braking input, for a given rate of speed loss.

- Lighter overall wheel weight has other effects such as reduced unsprung mass, plus areas such as lifting and moving the bike around underneath you.

- Folding beaded tyres are often built to a higher standard ie carcass, tread and compounds.

IBISMojoHDamon

Quote from Active.com.

Climbing wheels are built extra light because when the grade becomes steep, the bicycle slows and then accelerates slightly between each pedal stroke. The extra energy that this pulsing motion eats up can be considerable, so reducing the mass of the wheels—especially the rims and tires—can save a lot more energy than removing considerably more mass from the bicycle or rider.

Full article here.

http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/ ... erence.htm

supersonic

That is true (hence why I said on the flat ;-))

There is little doubt light wheels have many advantages if stiffness and strength are not an issue.

nicklouse

supersonic wrote:

- Folding beaded tyres are often built to a higher standard ie carcass, tread and compounds.

Which all changes the rolling resistance.

But the bead it's self has no effect on the above.

Again reading about road tyres/wheels is very misleading as what effects them ( wheel as a whole) have little real effect on a low pressure knobbly MTB set up.

A MTB. Tyre moves the carcass a lot more and it can be a big impact on how a tyre feels.

TPI and compound also make big changes. Bead material only reduces weight. Which can give the associated improvements. But if the tyre construction is the same then that will be the only change. The rolling resistance will just be the same.

supersonic

Absolutely, hence why I started with:

All else being equal

I always maintain: never skimp on tyres!

nicklouse

supersonic wrote:

Absolutely, hence why I started with:

All else being equal

I always maintain: never skimp on tyres!

Which is why I removed it

The Rookie

IBISMojoHDamon wrote:

Patronizing sarcasm, love it!.... Shame it was ruined with the spelling of grasp and happening!.... ;0)

Heck it was 10.44pm by then!

The info was still right.

Simon

IBISMojoHDamon

The Beginner wrote:

IBISMojoHDamon wrote:

Patronizing sarcasm, love it!.... Shame it was ruined with the spelling of grasp and happening!.... ;0)

Heck it was 10.44pm by then!

The info was still right.

Simon

Attention to detail Simon.... tsk tsk tsk... ;0)

I'm surprised nobody started with the debate of how Cup/Cone/loose Ball Bearings compare with sealed cartridge bearings and the effects this this will have on rotational mass... blah blah blah....