Girls in... threads but a no swearing plicy, makes no sense.

veronese68

velocestrapture wrote:

Magazines such as Cosmo do make money from including male centrefolds, so clearly there is a market for it. What is interesting is that those sorts of images don't make it into the mainstream media in the same way as images of women do.

I'm not claiming to be a great expert on this, obviously, but I do think if there was more of a demand for it you would see more of it. Profit is an extremely powerful motivator and, unfortunately, some people will do anything for money.
I do accept that some blokes are uncomfortable with it and moan and that will skew things a little as men often tend to be the decision makers. But I think market forces are more powerful.

rick_chasey

DonDaddyD wrote:

Just because there isn't demand doesn't mean that there isn't a selection of people who would look, buy and use said product. You have to look at why they wouldn't buy it. Society is too damning on women who are THAT sexually expressive to the point of willfully buying the female version of FHM. A lad buys FHM or admits to watching porn and it's what lads do. A woman buys her version of FHM and/or admits to watching porn and she's a slut forever labelled. Who wants the hassle of that, hence no market. They do though.

Really?

I think it's a generation thing then.

Most female friends I have are pretty open about it - as are the men.

DonDaddyD

Rick Chasey wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Just because there isn't demand doesn't mean that there isn't a selection of people who would look, buy and use said product. You have to look at why they wouldn't buy it. Society is too damning on women who are THAT sexually expressive to the point of willfully buying the female version of FHM. A lad buys FHM or admits to watching porn and it's what lads do. A woman buys her version of FHM and/or admits to watching porn and she's a slut forever labelled. Who wants the hassle of that, hence no market. They do though.

Really?

I think it's a generation thing then.

Most female friends I have are pretty open about it - as are the men.

I have some open female friends and some who aren't. But then there's me, my male friends who are open and my male friends who aren't.

My experience though is that women are in general relunctant to publicly express any admission to physical desire in the same way men are (why is it when I go into Harmony the clientel is always men but the majority of the products are for women?). This includes buying saucy magazines, sexually explicit content, public displays of appreciation wolf whistles, lewd comments etc. The more comfortable they become with you the more they are prepared they are to show just how filthy their minds can be.

MonkeyMonster

Jeez DDD, the sheer number of women I know that drool at the idea of brian cox... How can you not know of this phenomenom?
There is a definite trend in the younger generation to be far more open about porn watching - fap fap fap and schluck schluck schluck for instance.

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Just because there isn't demand doesn't mean that there isn't a selection of people who would look, buy and use said product. You have to look at why they wouldn't buy it. Society is too damning on women who are THAT sexually expressive to the point of willfully buying the female version of FHM. A lad buys FHM or admits to watching porn and it's what lads do. A woman buys her version of FHM and/or admits to watching porn and she's a slut forever labelled. Who wants the hassle of that, hence no market. They do though.

Really?

I think it's a generation thing then.

Most female friends I have are pretty open about it - as are the men.

I think there is a generational element as well. Unfortunately I'm not as young as I used to be.

DonDaddyD

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Jeez DDD, the sheer number of women I know that drool at the idea of brian cox... How can you not know of this phenomenom?
There is a definite trend in the younger generation to be far more open about porn watching - fap fap fap and schluck schluck schluck for instance.

In this society there will always be more men willing to admit they masturbate and watch porn than women. Whether that is really the case is a whole other subject.

MonkeyMonster

Old adage I heard when a youngster. There are two types of men in the world. Wankers and Liars.

rick_chasey

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Old adage I heard when a youngster. There are two types of men in the world. Wankers and Liars.

I remember we had one of those sex ed chats in school from a state sponsered 'edgy' guy.

The split the boys and girls up - girls so they could talk tampons and periods (despite that most of them were ahead of the curve on that one), and the boys, well, they had to do something.

Anyway, his opening gambit was "everyone's a w*nker, not just the referee!"

velocestrapture

msmancunia wrote:

velocestrapture wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

velocestrapture wrote:

I think the fact that the Boyz in Lycra thread is not easy to fill up with pictures of attractive men in sexy poses is indicative of the same issue that make the 'Girls ...' threads so problematic.
.

Probably more to do with a general male retinence to be seen checking out the softer end of male gay porn...

I think it might be more to do with the fact that blokes are more stimulated by the visual, whereas women are more cerebral. So there is more demand for pictures of women, and that is why when at my wife's hen do someone turned up with a mag with racy pictures of scantily clad men it was a publication for gay men because there just isn't the demand for that kind of thing from women.

Rubbish. You have that opinion because (for obvious reasons) you have never been in an all-female group of women when they are talking about men they find attractive.

Although I agree with you on most things, have to disagree with you on this one; cerebral for me every time.
You should see the stampede in the office here when Professor Brian Cox comes in for a start.

I don't think we have to disagree. I am quite a visual person, in that I rely a lot on photographic memory. I have strong sense of whether or not something looks right. You may have an emphasis on processing information in other ways, just as I am sure that there must be at least some men who get their sexual stimulation in a more cerebral way rather than visual. I do think it is a far too sweeping statement to say that this is how men behave and women behave differently, especially if you do so without stopping to consider whether it is an innate trait or a learnt one that has been created by society norms or pressures.

Greg T

velocestrapture wrote:

I am quite a visual person, in that I rely a lot on photographic memory.

I read that wrong first time round and nearly drowned on my tea. I blame the context of the frapp-a-thon for my mis-reading . . .

bonkstrong

(.)(.) / 8====D

It depends how you view things. Some will see a very naughty picture above, others will just see a few ASCII characters. When I see the pictures of women I admire their appearance, I don't think any less of them as a human being. Also, 9/10 times that I see a toned buff naked man I don't look away in disgust thinking "OMG, that's so gay" I usually think "man, I wish I looked like that" and put down my cake.

I do enjoy a good tug now and again though - I'm thinking of signing up to this... Website

jonny_trousers

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Just because there isn't demand doesn't mean that there isn't a selection of people who would look, buy and use said product. You have to look at why they wouldn't buy it. Society is too damning on women who are THAT sexually expressive to the point of willfully buying the female version of FHM. A lad buys FHM or admits to watching porn and it's what lads do. A woman buys her version of FHM and/or admits to watching porn and she's a slut forever labelled. Who wants the hassle of that, hence no market. They do though.

Really?

I think it's a generation thing then.

Most female friends I have are pretty open about it - as are the men.

I have some open female friends and some who aren't. But then there's me, my male friends who are open and my male friends who aren't.

My experience though is that women are in general relunctant to publicly express any admission to physical desire in the same way men are (why is it when I go into Harmony the clientel is always men but the majority of the products are for women?). This includes buying saucy magazines, sexually explicit content, public displays of appreciation wolf whistles, lewd comments etc. The more comfortable they become with you the more they are prepared they are to show just how filthy their minds can be.

I agree, but it is changing. When I look at my Facebook page it's my fiance and her equally middle-class, well-educated, twenty-something, female friends who are posting things like, Ashley Banjo: phwoar! Wentworth Miller: yummy! (my girlfriend did recently post "Kate Beckinsdale: my new girl crush", which was fine with me) and not any of my male Facebook 'friends'. I realise they are only doing it for effect, but then so too, I suspect, are the boys in Cakestop.

I'm pretty certain that if I was to draw my fiance's attention to the "Girls in..." threads she would respond with something along the lines of, 'boys-being-boys,' perhaps with the odd, 'wow, she's-hot,' thrown in. If I was to let her read some of the comments that accompany the pictures she would probably quite rightly say, 'boys who are incapable of getting laid.' I'd ask her opinion right now to be certain, but she's busy washing-up (no, of course not silly! She's off doing her modern woman thing and working and besides, she thinks I am a loser for spending time on web forums anyway).

velocestrapture

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Just because there isn't demand doesn't mean that there isn't a selection of people who would look, buy and use said product. You have to look at why they wouldn't buy it. Society is too damning on women who are THAT sexually expressive to the point of willfully buying the female version of FHM. A lad buys FHM or admits to watching porn and it's what lads do. A woman buys her version of FHM and/or admits to watching porn and she's a slut forever labelled. Who wants the hassle of that, hence no market. They do though.

Really?

I think it's a generation thing then.

Most female friends I have are pretty open about it - as are the men.

I have some open female friends and some who aren't. But then there's me, my male friends who are open and my male friends who aren't.

My experience though is that women are in general relunctant to publicly express any admission to physical desire in the same way men are (why is it when I go into Harmony the clientel is always men but the majority of the products are for women?). This includes buying saucy magazines, sexually explicit content, public displays of appreciation wolf whistles, lewd comments etc. The more comfortable they become with you the more they are prepared they are to show just how filthy their minds can be.

I agree, but it is changing. When I look at my Facebook page it's my fiance and her equally middle-class, well-educated, twenty-something, female friends who are posting things like, Ashley Banjo: phwoar! Wentworth Miller: yummy! (my girlfriend did recently post "Kate Beckinsdale: my new girl crush", which was fine with me) and not any of my male Facebook 'friends'. I realise they are only doing it for effect, but then so too, I suspect, are the boys in Cakestop.

I'm pretty certain that if I was to draw my fiance's attention to the "Girls in..." threads she would respond with something along the lines of, 'boys-being-boys,' perhaps with the odd, 'wow, she's-hot,' thrown in. If I was to let her read some of the comments that accompany the pictures she would probably quite rightly say, 'boys who are incapable of getting laid.' I'd ask her opinion right now to be certain, but she's busy washing-up (no, of course not silly! She's off doing her modern woman thing and working and besides, she thinks I am a loser for spending time on web forums anyway).

A few years ago, I would have had just the same reaction as you suppose your girlfriend will have. I even went out with a guy who was a video editor for porn movies and was 'cool' with that (although seeing the bits that didn't make the final edit was the start of me failing to find anything at all arousing about the final versions).

It is only when I started the work I do now which often involves working with women that have been abused by men, and then go on to still be treated appallingly when they ask for help, that I began to question the attitudes that make violence against women so prevelant in our society. One in four women will be sexually or physically abused at some point in their lifetime. And I am not just talking about sexist comments in the street or an odd grope in a club. For me that is unacceptable and calls for a serious questioning of why it happens. I think it is naive to put it down to a few rotten apples without carefully checking that the rest of the barrel shows no signs of decay.

clarkey cat

One in four women will be sexually or physically abused at some point in their lifetime.

I blame Wiggle

jonny_trousers

velocestrapture wrote:

It is only when I started the work I do now which often involves working with women that have been abused by men, and then go on to still be treated appallingly when they ask for help, that I began to question the attitudes that make violence against women so prevelant in our society. One in four women will be sexually or physically abused at some point in their lifetime. And I am not just talking about sexist comments in the street or an odd grope in a club. For me that is unacceptable and calls for a serious questioning of why it happens. I think it is naive to put it down to a few rotten apples without carefully checking that the rest of the barrel shows no signs of decay.

Well your frontline experience of the apaaling nature of abuse does at least partly explain your rather extreme reaction to what most of us seem to think is essentially harmless (I'm referring to men enjoying looking at and sharing pictures of pretty women - not some of the comments that accompany them), but I still think you are casting your net far too widely when looking for the reasons certain men (and in the big picture they are a minority) think it acceptable to behave abusively towards women. I do also object to the assumption that simply because I am a man, by my nature I am capable of such behaviour - an 'apple' in need of check for 'decay'.

You seem to have very little respect for men in general and their ability to distinguish between right and wrong, which suggests any discussion here, with the heavily dominant male membership, is utterly pointless.

bonkstrong

clarkey cat wrote:

One in four women will be sexually or physically abused at some point in their lifetime.

I once accidently date-raped myself - true story.

jonginge

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

velocestrapture wrote:

It is only when I started the work I do now which often involves working with women that have been abused by men, and then go on to still be treated appallingly when they ask for help, that I began to question the attitudes that make violence against women so prevelant in our society. One in four women will be sexually or physically abused at some point in their lifetime. And I am not just talking about sexist comments in the street or an odd grope in a club. For me that is unacceptable and calls for a serious questioning of why it happens. I think it is naive to put it down to a few rotten apples without carefully checking that the rest of the barrel shows no signs of decay.

Well your frontline experience of the apaaling nature of abuse does at least partly explain your rather extreme reaction to what most of us seem to think is essentially harmless (I'm referring to men enjoying looking at and sharing pictures of pretty women - not some of the comments that accompany them), but I still think you are casting your net far too widely when looking for the reasons certain men (and in the big picture they are a minority) think it acceptable to behave abusively towards women. I do also object to the assumption that simply because I am a man I too am capable of such behaviour - an 'apple' in need of check for 'decay'.

You seem to have very little respect for men in general and their ability to distinguish between right and wrong, which suggests any discussion here, with the heavily dominant male membership, is utterly pointless.

I didn't really get that. But, then, perhaps I need to pay more attention to my reading skills.

jonny_trousers

JonGinge wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

velocestrapture wrote:

It is only when I started the work I do now which often involves working with women that have been abused by men, and then go on to still be treated appallingly when they ask for help, that I began to question the attitudes that make violence against women so prevelant in our society. One in four women will be sexually or physically abused at some point in their lifetime. And I am not just talking about sexist comments in the street or an odd grope in a club. For me that is unacceptable and calls for a serious questioning of why it happens. I think it is naive to put it down to a few rotten apples without carefully checking that the rest of the barrel shows no signs of decay.

Well your frontline experience of the apaaling nature of abuse does at least partly explain your rather extreme reaction to what most of us seem to think is essentially harmless (I'm referring to men enjoying looking at and sharing pictures of pretty women - not some of the comments that accompany them), but I still think you are casting your net far too widely when looking for the reasons certain men (and in the big picture they are a minority) think it acceptable to behave abusively towards women. I do also object to the assumption that simply because I am a man I too am capable of such behaviour - an 'apple' in need of check for 'decay'.

You seem to have very little respect for men in general and their ability to distinguish between right and wrong, which suggests any discussion here, with the heavily dominant male membership, is utterly pointless.

I didn't really get that. But, then, perhaps I need to pay more attention to my reading skills.

Okay, fair enough, I got a little carried away there. I am going to step away from this thread now, though, as we all know, arguing on the internet is like taking part in the spe... um - best not continue with that one.

jonginge

Never gets old: http://xkcd.com/386/

jedster

Aren't we overcomplicating things here folks?

I doubt many women are surprised or even particularly dusturbed to learn that men enjoying looking at pictures of semi-naked women or even that they make a few tasteless jokes while doing so.

I think they probably feel, though, that it is pretty obnoxious, insensitive and unfriendly do so in a "public place" where both men and women are supposed to be welcome.

Now I'm a bloke so apologies in advance if that is not a fair discription.

By the way it's this "public place" thing that leads to a lot of the confusion. I suspect nearly all the posters in the "girls in..." threads wouldn't consider passing around those pictures and making risque jokes in Starbucks. They'd appreciate that it would be rude and disrespectful to the women present. So should cake stop a public place that is welcoming to women as well as men? That's debateable. But as the women posting here have said, it isn't at the moment.

velocestrapture

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

You seem to have very little respect for men in general and their ability to distinguish between right and wrong, which suggests any discussion here, with the heavily dominant male membership, is utterly pointless.

I note your retraction of this comment and thank you for that, but I think that the views I have expressed on here have been anything but disrespectful.

Truly disrespectful attitudes towards men are the ones that frequently come from women, but men too, when they say that men have needs and urges that can only be met by free access to provocative images of women or regular sex, so we shouldn't expect them to curb those impulses even if it may be causing discomfort to other people. It is disrespectful to say that women are naturally better at childcare/housework/cooking/shopping, and it is ok to treat men as incompetent children when they make mistakes or choose to do it a bit differently. It is disrespectful to say that men have less emotional intelligence than women, so should be excused being unkind or thoughtless. It is disrespectful to say that women are foolish for walking alone at night because any man is a potential rapist, so women should not trust men as a group not to rape her.

I don't think it is the slightest bit disrespectful to do as I have done, and put forward my opinion in (what I hope has been) an articulate and measured way. It is completely respectful to assume that although the men reading this post will not have the experiences and perspective that I do, that they may be able to understand what and why I am posting, and even if they don't agree, will be able and willing to think about it carefully, and may be open minded enough to change their opinions a little.

But if you think that I have been disrespectful because I have steadfastly held my position despite many men telling me that I am wrong, and that I have had the balls to come onto a male-dominated site and put out some views that I acknowledge may well be uncomfortable and challenging to men reading them, then seriously, mate, you can take a running jump.

SteppenHerring

jedster wrote:

Aren't we overcomplicating things here folks?

I doubt many women are surprised or even particularly dusturbed to learn that men enjoying looking at pictures of semi-naked women or even that they make a few tasteless jokes while doing so.

I think they probably feel, though, that it is pretty obnoxious, insensitive and unfriendly do so in a "public place" where both men and women are supposed to be welcome.

Now I'm a bloke so apologies in advance if that is not a fair discription.

By the way it's this "public place" thing that leads to a lot of the confusion. I suspect nearly all the posters in the "girls in..." threads wouldn't consider passing around those pictures and making risque jokes in Starbucks. They'd appreciate that it would be rude and disrespectful to the women present. So should cake stop a public place that is welcoming to women as well as men? That's debateable. But as the women posting here have said, it isn't at the moment.

+1

lost_in_thought

SteppenHerring wrote:

jedster wrote:

Aren't we overcomplicating things here folks?

I doubt many women are surprised or even particularly dusturbed to learn that men enjoying looking at pictures of semi-naked women or even that they make a few tasteless jokes while doing so.

I think they probably feel, though, that it is pretty obnoxious, insensitive and unfriendly do so in a "public place" where both men and women are supposed to be welcome.

Now I'm a bloke so apologies in advance if that is not a fair discription.

By the way it's this "public place" thing that leads to a lot of the confusion. I suspect nearly all the posters in the "girls in..." threads wouldn't consider passing around those pictures and making risque jokes in Starbucks. They'd appreciate that it would be rude and disrespectful to the women present. So should cake stop a public place that is welcoming to women as well as men? That's debateable. But as the women posting here have said, it isn't at the moment.

+1

Jedster's like Silent Bob -- comes along at the end and sums things up in an intelligent and measured way.

If you want to ogle near-naked women in such an obvious way as people do on CakeStop, there are plenty of other sites for that. This site's meant to be about cycling, which, although you wouldn't know it coming on here, is a sport for men and women.

msmancunia

Hmm the debate continues - unfortunately our internet failed at work this PM so I had to actually do some work.

Changing the subject slightly, I've just towed a guy four miles up Oldham Rd, who seemed to be incapable of taking a turn at the front. I'm all for equal rights and everything, but that's taking the mick a bit.

Got a PB home out of it though

jonny_trousers

velocestrapture wrote:

But if you think that I have been disrespectful because I have steadfastly held my position despite many men telling me that I am wrong, and that I have had the balls to come onto a male-dominated site and put out some views that I acknowledge may well be uncomfortable and challenging to men reading them, then seriously, mate, you can take a running jump.

No, 'mate', that has been your misguided perception all along: you've had an opinion that has been very respectfully refuted. No one has been made to feel 'uncomfortable' no one has been especially 'challenged', we've all listened, we've all offered our reply, and we are all back where we started. You have opened absolutely no one's eyes to your - and in my opinion misguided - opinion of the truth.

In the same way that I promise to go away and think about how the kind of threads we have talked about may upset some women, I hope you will go away and have a little think about how perfectly decent men actually can enjoy looking at pictures of semi-naked women without wishing them, or any other woman on the planet, any harm.

PS. Your boyfriend does look at porn and he does get turned on by pictures of particularly attractive women. That does not make him a bad person or a mysogenist and it certainly doesn't mean he cares for you any less.

PPS. Like I say, I'm out!

rjsterry

You know her boyfriend? There's a possibility you're right, but definitely not a certainty. I suspect more people than you think don't get much out of porn.

clarkey cat

I suspect more people than you think don't get much out of porn.

watching the wrong type of porn obviously.

rjsterry

clarkey cat wrote:

I suspect more people than you think don't get much out of porn.

watching the wrong type of porn obviously.

Maybe. I've not the inclination to look.

cornerblock

jedster wrote:

I suspect nearly all the posters in the "girls in..." threads wouldn't consider passing around those pictures and making risque jokes in Starbucks.

You're right there, can't stand the place. Caffè Nero all the way for me.

rick_chasey

Best makes mum is a social worker type person thing - can't remember precisely - and I remember her saying that there was a direct correlation to people who watch extreme pornography and their propensity to commit sexual offences - and prolonged habitual use of pornography leads to more 'extreme' tastes > though whether than then relates to the above I'm not sure...

A bit like serial killers often are cruel/kill animals when they're kids etc.

Makes sense.