High intensity training - please explain
skylla
Posts: 758
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17177251
That's a big difference 20/40% compared to 80%. I take it the 20% applies to cycling and the 40% to a jog? The remainder must be mainly down to a higher intensity of aerobic exercise?
bbc news wrote:When you do HIT, you are using not just the leg muscles, but also the upper body including arms and shoulders, so that 80% of the body's muscle cells are activated, compared to 20-40% for walking or moderate intensity jogging or cycling.
That's a big difference 20/40% compared to 80%. I take it the 20% applies to cycling and the 40% to a jog? The remainder must be mainly down to a higher intensity of aerobic exercise?
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NapoleonD wrote:Watch horizon tonight and find out!
Horizon is particularly bad for dramatising scientific 'factoids', then unnecessarily prolonging this drama before they come to a conclusion - if ever. Mosley is a great presenter but the horizon producers will apply eastenders agony. Perhaps some enlighted spirit will be able to summarise tomorrow whilst I watch some paint dry tonight! oh, also have got a BB to extract and perhaps walk the dog..0 -
BTW just downloaded the PDF of the paper 'Towards the minimal amount of exercise for improving metabolic health: beneficial effects of reduced-exertion high-intensity interval training', published end of last year. PM me if you're interested.0
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don't forget, this is 'average, sedentary, man in the street' fitness - I doubt it will have any relevance to anything that anyone does on here...0
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FROM: Metcalfe et al. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2011 Nov 29.
High-intensity interval training (HIT) has been proposed as a time-efficient alternative to traditional cardiorespiratory exercise training, but is very fatiguing. In this study, we investigated the effects of a reduced-exertion HIT (REHIT) exercise intervention on insulin sensitivity and aerobic capacity. Twenty-nine healthy but sedentary young men and women were randomly assigned to the REHIT intervention (men, n = 7; women, n = 8) or a control group (men, n = 6, women, n = 8 ). Subjects assigned to the control groups maintained their normal sedentary lifestyle, whilst subjects in the training groups completed three exercise sessions per week for 6 weeks. The 10-min exercise sessions consisted of low-intensity cycling (60 W) and one (first session) or two (all other sessions) brief ‘all-out’ sprints (10 s in week 1, 15 s in weeks 2–3 and 20 s in the final 3 weeks). Aerobic capacity (VO2peak) and the glucose and insulin response to a 75-g glucose load (OGTT) were determined before and 3 days after the exercise program. Despite relatively low ratings of perceived exertion (RPE 13 ± 1), insulin sensitivity significantly increased by 28% in the male training group following the REHIT intervention (P < 0.05). VO2peak increased in the male training (+15%) and female training (+12%) groups (P < 0.01). In conclusion we show that a novel, feasible exercise intervention can improve metabolic health and aerobic capacity. REHIT may offer a genuinely time-efficient alternative to HIT and conventional cardiorespiratory exercise training for improving risk factors of T2D.0 -
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Google for Tabata Protocol - it has been successfully used for cycling for a number of years, but doing 20 second reps at threshold is pretty tough. I still do a 20 minute warm-up to ensure I can reach my threshold.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Tabata is much harder than that.Monty Dog wrote:Google for Tabata Protocol - it has been successfully used for cycling for a number of years, but doing 20 second reps at threshold is pretty tough. I still do a 20 minute warm-up to ensure I can reach my threshold.0 -
So ideal for the general unfit and flabby populus of the UK then.0
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Back in my kayak racing days (40+ years ago) we had squad training weekends at Bisham Abbey.
I'd never heard of Tabata training until now but I think we must have been doing a variation of that (but perhaps more brutal) back then.
The squad was split into 2 groups and you were then paired with a member of the other group.
So group 1 would start...
2 mins pressups
2 mins squat thrusts
2 mins star jumps
2 mins situps
No rests in between. Not quite sure if that was exactly the running order.
The person you were paired with counted your reps.
Then group 2 would start (after group 1 had been able to recover sufficiently).
All was tallied up at the end... very competetive but something you absolutely dreaded. 8 minutes of hell.
No HRMs in those days but ... :shock:
Was that Tabata, HIIT?“You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”
Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Kona Hei Hei/Calibre Bossnut0 -
Ah-ha i was just about to post on this very thing.
In reply to the OP about the percentages of muscle usage, I think it means that the more intense your exercise, the more your core and arms are used to counteract the forces generated by your legs (in cycling for e.g.). The harder you pedal the more twisting force will be generated that, without an opposing force, would probably make you fall off your bike. As a test you could ride along and then do a hard sprint, like when your bike gets thrown side to side, and feel the work that your arms do trying to keep the bike central.
However my question is this: In the article, they do a test to see whether the guy is a 'super responder' i.e. someone who gets proper benefit out of HIT. What kind of practical things can you do to see if you respond like this? I was thinking you can do say a ten week period of HIT, and do a before and after measurement of something, like how you feel or time it takes you to ride a certain distance or something, anyone have any ideas? For those who dont have access to a lab!0 -
Pseudonym wrote:Dabber wrote:Was that Tabata, HIIT?
No, that wasn't tabata - and an HRM is pretty useless for HIIT anyway, as it won't keep up with the effort...
I've just been on the tabata protocol website, and it specifically says you should have a heart rate monitor. Are you talking about using one actually during the HIT? the website says it should be used for recording your recovery heart rate etc.
in reply to er, myself, recovery heart rate seems to be a good thing to measure before and after, what are others' thoughts on this?0 -
I was referring to the use of an HRM during a tabata session. Tabata sessions are intended as a series of short 'flat out' efforts with minimal recovery in between, so an HRM is not really necessary - and even if you did wear one during the session,, it wouldn't tell you anything useful.0
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Pseudonym wrote:I was referring to the use of an HRM during a tabata session. Tabata sessions are intended as a series of short 'flat out' efforts with minimal recovery in between, so an HRM is not really necessary - and even if you did wear one during the session,, it wouldn't tell you anything useful.
Ah ok yes i see.0 -
Just reading the Wiki entry for this and it hardly seems worth doing endurance or steady state at all as Tabata produces the same gains in 25% of the time. If this was true wouldn't Chris Hoy be a world beating endurance rider too?0
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The HIT training I've done in the last few years really come down to:
1.Having some sort of exercise that uses a large number of muscles
2.Doing this at near maximal effort for a short time period and then having a short rest period. Repeat as much as possible
I've done this with kettlebell snatches (look up Viking Warrior training) and swings, and also with sprint intervals.
I upped my max effort and downed my heart rate, but my cardio only responded a bit. But, if you've onlygot short time periods for exercise (i.e. lunch time) it's a great way of getting bang for bucks0 -
The Tabata protocol I saw when I first read about it was 20 secs on / 10 sec off with each one as a flat out sprint, and you would just try to do as many as possible until your output fell (not sure by how much but I took it as when you struggled to do a real sprint. You may manage 2 or may manage 12 but if you can do many more then it would indicate that your individual rep effort was not a sprint since you can't really do 20 sprints when you are only getting 10 secs recovery between each effort.
More recently I've seen mentions of doing exactly 8 reps which is around the number I tend to find I do if I am doing them well - sometimes I can reach 12 and still find I have something left in the tank but then I also feel that I haven't been really riding flat out and they are just repeated hard efforts, not flat out sprint efforts in truth.
Chris Hoy I'm sure does max sprints but probably not repeated efforts with v.short rest periods.
It makes sense that 1 max effort followed by another and another, with tiny rests, means that each subsequent one is not a real 100% flat out effort but the results are supposed to give very good endurance gains.
I've seen mentions of guys like Wiggins incorporating these into a longer training session but that isn't true Tabata since the end of the session should leave you left with nothing.
When I've done mine well, or at least I've felt I've done as well as I can, then although the session only lasts a tiny length of time, my legs are shaking and I am really knackered. I've found that I can sometimes try to do these and reach maybe 90% effort but REALLY max efforts are hard to get my effort up to and hence after 8 I'm still not falling off the bike on the turbo (where I've done these).0 -
Kettlebells are really good to use in HIT. I really like the "whole body approach" that they offer. Especially swings and cleans. Be careful with technique at first. Quite high injury frequency. I friend of mine dropped a 20 kg kettlebell on her foot and smashed three toes...Fredrik Nystedt, Sweden
Please take a look at my Tour of Flanders video(http://youtu.be/h69_542YBIQ)0 -
jarnman wrote:Kettlebells are really good to use in HIT. I really like the "whole body approach" that they offer. Especially swings and cleans. Be careful with technique at first. Quite high injury frequency. I friend of mine dropped a 20 kg kettlebell on her foot and smashed three toes...
She wasnt trying to get a better snatch was she?My pen won't write on the screen0 -
:shock:secretsqizz wrote:jarnman wrote:Kettlebells are really good to use in HIT. I really like the "whole body approach" that they offer. Especially swings and cleans. Be careful with technique at first. Quite high injury frequency. I friend of mine dropped a 20 kg kettlebell on her foot and smashed three toes...
She wasnt trying to get a better snatch was she?
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i can see this might be good for sprinting but will it be of benefit on 100+ mile rides or riding 15 miles uphill inm the Pyrenees?0
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inaperfectworld wrote:i can see this might be good for sprinting but will it be of benefit on 100+ mile rides or riding 15 miles uphill inm the Pyrenees?
Yes apparently you can make fairly big gains in aerobic fitness through doing this. Which would help with climbing i suppose and general fitness. You would still have to practice riding 100 miles though to get your body used to that distance0 -
I started a thread on tabatas a couple of years or so ago, as I had decided to do them due to time constraints.
I can't even remember what I found!Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Not cycling specific but this article
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... method&cr=
Sums up tabata, by the end of the 4 minutes there sholdn't be anything let in the tank.0 -
Probably like others, I saw the TV programme recently that advocates Tabata training.
Until now, I'd just assumed it was an interval type session but didn't really appreciate how hard it is to do with the 20/10 seconds intervals.
I'm massively unfit and 3 stone overweight, but getting back into it after an accident stopped all exercise from August last year to around a month ago.
Can do 30 minutes on a cross trainer at quite a high intensity, or a rapid ish 30 minutes mtb ride in non technical local woods, but the tabata squats with only 20Kg worth of dumbbells (10 per sde) nearly killed me
Am sat here now with my thighs pounding and have just about stopped sweating.
Going to be doing it twice a week in between normal aerobic 30 minute cross trainer and will post up results after 4 weeks
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what struck me as interesting was the idea that these 3 x 20 sec maximal bursts, 3 times a week, could induce a potentially significant development of VO2 max. While these maximal efforts themselves are tough, it seems to me that they could be incorporated into a typically weekly cycling training plan without too much impact on other sessions?
Typical VO2 max training sessions have lots of 5x5 min or similar intervals that produce significant fatigue that impacts the rest of your weekly plan, but if 3x20 sec sessions were producing a similar benefit over a longer period, could you not incorporate these into a longer endurance ride or at the end of a turbo session etc? I understand real maximal efforts are difficult to do safely on a real bike on a road, but some killer hill efforts get pretty close if you really go for it, or a turbo session could be used 3x20 secs at the end of a 2x20 session etc?
The missing piece of the jigsaw for me is a comparison with other VO2 max development protocols eg are 3 x 20 sec bursts more/less/same as doing 5x5 mins etc.
Thoughts?Your Past is Not Your Potential...0 -
Bigpikle wrote:what struck me as interesting was the idea that these 3 x 20 sec maximal bursts, 3 times a week, could induce a potentially significant development of VO2 max. While these maximal efforts themselves are tough, it seems to me that they could be incorporated into a typically weekly cycling training plan without too much impact on other sessions?
Typical VO2 max training sessions have lots of 5x5 min or similar intervals that produce significant fatigue that impacts the rest of your weekly plan, but if 3x20 sec sessions were producing a similar benefit over a longer period, could you not incorporate these into a longer endurance ride or at the end of a turbo session etc? I understand real maximal efforts are difficult to do safely on a real bike on a road, but some killer hill efforts get pretty close if you really go for it, or a turbo session could be used 3x20 secs at the end of a 2x20 session etc?
The missing piece of the jigsaw for me is a comparison with other VO2 max development protocols eg are 3 x 20 sec bursts more/less/same as doing 5x5 mins etc.
Thoughts?
I wonder though if there'd be any improvement in VO2max for an already (highly) trained individual as opposed to a couch potato. Also, at what point would the gains from doing these lead to a plateau in VO2max that could only be overcome by doing something different (e.g. 5x5min intervals)?
I thought it was an interesting programme, especially the genetics side of it with non- and super-responders. I may have missed this, but where was the study that the Scottish guy in the programme talked about published? He's got a £5 million research grant so there's clearly something in the work he's doing.
Far more interesting though for me was the calories that can be burnt from just being generally active - walking, using stairs instead of the lift, etc. (something that few people where I work seem to do). I think that goes a long way to explaining why we're becoming a nation of fatties since so many people these days do zero non-specific exercise.More problems but still living....0
