Hill climbing and breathing

carbonmanx

I have recently been trying to improve my time and break through a plateau and not doing particularly well.
I guess because of watching as much of the pro tour as possible I have thought that to succeed on hills I need to stand and hammer, but the reality for me is when I stand my breathing gets out of control, which usually means although I make it over the hill I have to recover for around 5 minutes and loose any gains on the hill..

However I went for a ride yesterday with a mate who is more powerful than me which always gives me a good run to stick with him, and I noticed that I can maintain my speed and power sitting and standing doesn't do much for me other than up my breathing loads..

I climbed a mile hill ave gradient of 7.2% peaks of 20% sat the whole way and hit a personal best knocking 20 seconds of my previous best and was soooo much better at the top I was able to get straight on the gas.

So I guess the morale of my story is that whilst I would like to think I climb like contador the reality for me is currently I'm much better sitting, maybe my quads are more powerful I don't know but aside from sprints I'm gonna stick to sitting as much as possible.

Just happy with my new pb :-) and wanted to share my thoughts!
Cheers!

phreak

I only ever stand when I'm sprinting or on a long climb to mix things up a little. It's much more efficient to sit and climb. Whilst it's great to watch the Pantanis and Contadors of the world stand and dance their way up climbs for extended periods, for mortals that's incredibly difficult to do for any length of time.

Herbsman

If you're poor at climbing while standing then surely that means you need to work on climbing while standing, so you improve at it. Then, when you need to stand up during a climb, you won't lose as much time as you do now.

carbonmanx

I don't really have a problem climbing standing up, just observing that when I climb standing up I end up considerably more out of breathe than when seated, if standing offers no benefits but uses more energy it's not worth doing is it...

amaferanga

carbonmanx wrote:

I don't really have a problem climbing standing up, just observing that when I climb standing up I end up considerably more out of breathe than when seated, if standing offers no benefits but uses more energy it's not worth doing is it...

That's probably because you never do it and/or when you get out of the saddle you're in the wrong gear and sprinting as opposed to getting into a nice rhythm that'll allow you to climb like that for a while.

Climbing out of the saddle certainly isn't much less inefficient. Maybe a bit, but the steeper the climb and the lower your cadence then the less there is between seated and out of the saddle climbing.

Simple fact is that if you do it regularly then you should be able to climb any hill in the UK either seated or standing the whole way up. Unfortunately most people don't practice climbing out of the saddle and then when they do try it they get it all wrong and don't persevere as they think it's less efficient.

carbonmanx

That's interesting, perhaps my cadence is too high when I'm standing - I do tend to try to keep a fast cadence, what would you all suggest for climbing in a good steady rhythm? Obviously within reason

amaferanga

Do you knock it into a harder gear before getting out of the saddle? If not then try knocking it down one or two sprockets and see if that helps. I almost always knock it down to the next smaller sprocket when I get out of the saddle unless I've got to a steep ramp and I've let my cadence drop already.

carbonmanx

I usually try to but probably only ever knock down
1 gear no more.. I think instinctively when I get out of the saddle I attack a bit maybe I need to just keep steady not pushing so much power down..

cyco2

carbonmanx wrote:

I don't really have a problem climbing standing up, just observing that when I climb standing up I end up considerably more out of breathe than when seated, if standing offers no benefits but uses more energy it's not worth doing is it...

If you do not train to use the extra energy in a road race you will get left behind. Somebody always attacks a climb at some point and you have to go with it. Practising the technique of 'honking' at a moderate pace can be satisfying when you get it right. In time and on occasions with the same gear as you're sat down for stand up and slightly increase your speed if you go faster then change gear. All the huffing and puffing you do is good for you. It's called aerobic training.

carbonmanx

Aerobic training I do plenty of, it's the anaerobic state I get into on the hills, but if that's just because I need to do more of them then so be it :-)

cyco2

I have climbed many thousands of times and it is about knocking out a tempo most of the time. But if I wanted to increase my climbing ability I would knock out some hill sprints, little ones to start with. Google 'anaerobic exercise' to find out what you have to do and then adapt it to suit you.

jibberjim

There was a study that found the %age of VO2max that was more efficient in and out of the saddle differed considerably for different people. The lowest in the study was something like 80% - that's someone who could almost certainly dance up Alpe d'huez out of the saddle. The highest was something like 150% - that's someone who'd not have a hope of standing for that long and would be better off seated.

You won't know what's right for you, so just let your body choose, it will choose the most efficient. Which is right will also possibly change as you get fitter, lose weight or whatever too.

thegibdog

I used to be rubbish at climbing out of the saddle but the more I did it the better (well, less rubbish...) I got. It comes in useful for maintaining momentum on the steep stuff; I climbed a 25%er last week seated and it wasn't fun!

lastwords

i find that when trying to maintain a good speed (climb near your limit for a strava kom ) seated or standing depends on the gradient, there is a middle ground where i will keep swapping but once steep enough standing is quicker, if the gradient isnt steep then seated is quicker.

carbonmanx

Hit the same hill again today, and after all the talk in this thread, I choose to try standing a bit more.

Didnt worry about keeping my cadence up, and just ground out the hill in a bigger gear than I would have normally gone for, sat down in the middle section, then stood again near the top.
Was pretty heavily anerobic by the top, and felt like it would be a poor time, but when i got back and checked strava, i had knocked 20 seconds of my previous best, and moved me into 2nd on the hill, only 19seconds off first.

So I guess standing and grinding out a climb is a bit deceptive, because of the slow cadence I felt slow, but obviously because I was turning a bigger gear I was actually going faster...

cyco2

Well done. You appear to have learned something about hill climbing techniques. Now for your next lesson you will need to invest in another chainset. One with longer cranks. But don't tell anybody what you've done. If they ask how you beat the best time just say 'it was due to training harder'.

carbonmanx

Well it's all about learning isn't it.. That's what's so great about forums like this, everyone chipping in :-)

20 seconds to find and I'll get my first cat 4 kom :-)

As for longer cranks, think I'll have to save up for them, lol.

I think what I have mostly learnt is that I can put in more effort / power than I sometimes realise..
I guess that's what makes a power meter useful for training, although I bit out of my price range currently..

Thanks everyone who has chipped in this far

Team4Luke

everyone is different and more suited one way or the other, look at Wiggins, not really an out of saddle climber but can tempo it sat down (he appears to be improving his out of saddle efforts though, yet he doesn't actually look very good out of saddle !) however he and you aren't going to match accelerations or go faster up a hill unless you can do a bit of both, if it's short enough then only an out of saddle effort will get you to the top faster, if it's longer then sat down will give the bigger gains.
End of the day your asking your body to increase it's power dramatically from riding on the flat to all of a sudden going uphill. More aerobic training will settle your breathing down more and specific hill training efforts will bring on the speed and strength.