10 mile TT versus 50 mile plus

Pigtail

Hi folks I'm carrying this over from the beginners forum in the thread about 15 mph average.

The bit I'm referring to is:-


BruceG wrote: my average over a hilly 50 is 17 - 20 . . . my TT 10 times are around 26/27


Bordersroadie wrote:

That's a pretty slow TT 10 for someone that can do 20mph average over 50. I suspect a "typo" somewhere. . . or maybe you live in "hilly" East Anglia

Now what is the link between the two? Are we looking at different types of rider to do well in each one, with some people able to do well in both?

To give a personal slant on it - I'm just over a year into project roadie and want to try everything going. I've also just turned 50. My best for a 10 mile TT, on a standard roadbike, on a slightly lumpy course is 28.25, which I was disappointed with.

I'm aiming to do the Etape Caledonia at a 20 mph average over 81 miles. It maybe that I won't get there, but I'll give it a damn good try.

So what does that say? I'm not very sure if I should just accept that I'll never do very well over short distances (we're only talking club TTs) and concentrate on long distances. Or am I just not working hard enough on speed work and I should really push the intervals to see if I can make any improvement? I'm the only person that can really answer that - but I'm looking for some ideas from others on being an allrounder versus a specialist.

Pseudonym

I would simply ignore anyone else's claims of 'average speed' on the internet and carry on as normal...

amaferanga

17-20mph is such a huge range it's quite clearly forum bullsh*t.

SBezza

I would suspect the average speed quoted, 17-20 mph is a huge range, and it could be that those are the speeds reached rather than a true average speed.

IMO if you can do a hilly 50 at 20mph average, you should be doing a 10m TT a fair bit quicker than 26/27 mins unless the bike used for the TT is a complete shed. There is a difference to doing a fast 50 and a fast 10, but it can be quite close, I can do a 50 2mph average slower than a 10, but thats when racing. When training it is more like 9-10 mph difference between a fast training 50 compared to a racing 10.

cyco2

It does depend on the time you have been training to race, especially at your age and physic. You should perceiver because age in cycling is not such a handicap providing you can identify your weaknesses. I.e riding position, weight, pedalling technique etc., Train to train is something else you need to bear in mind because real training can be very painful and you need to ramp up to it. The 10 course if hillyish is not good for speed so all you can do is try and beat the next time if the weather is the same. But bear in mind that a 10 for some is not far off a sprint and is excellent power training. Treat some 10's as training rather than a race and don't be afraid to 'blow up' during it a few times.
There are so many factors to overcome in attaining a higher average speed. All you can do in the area that you ride is to improve a little bit at a time. Some of the goals you hope to attain seem a little bit stretched and would take an awful lot of riding to get there.

Pross

SBezza wrote:

I would suspect the average speed quoted, 17-20 mph is a huge range, and it could be that those are the speeds reached rather than a true average speed.

IMO if you can do a hilly 50 at 20mph average, you should be doing a 10m TT a fair bit quicker than 26/27 mins unless the bike used for the TT is a complete shed. There is a difference to doing a fast 50 and a fast 10, but it can be quite close, I can do a 50 2mph average slower than a 10, but thats when racing. When training it is more like 9-10 mph difference between a fast training 50 compared to a racing 10.

+1 to this. My PB for a 10 since I started riding again is a long 26 but if riding on my own on a hilly 50 miler I would struggle to average much more than 16mph (in a group I might make 18mph if I didn't get dropped on the hills). My all time PBs for 10 and 50 are about 2.5mph different but that's 50 flat miles in race conditions.

briantrumpet

SBezza wrote:

I would suspect the average speed quoted, 17-20 mph is a huge range, and it could be that those are the speeds reached rather than a true average speed.

From the links given, no, they appear to be average speeds, but

1) They aren't hilly by any stretch of the imagination
2) He doesn't reach 20mph on any of them
3) Three of the quoted rides appear to have lengthy stops in them (difference between 'Moving' and 'Elapsed' time.)

And from my own experience, there is a considerable difference between just 19mph and 20mph over 50+ mile rides.

[unscientific personal experience]Having said that, I suspect that my own physiology is more suited to just keeping plugging away at longer distances - I won't be breaking records at either 10-mile-TTing or endurance, but I suspect I'm better at the latter, so can see where BruceG is coming from, even if his claims of speed are open to question.[/unscientific personal experience]

johndoran

Quote.... IMO if you can do a hilly 50 at 20mph average, you should be doing a 10m TT a fair bit quicker than 26/27 mins unless the bike used for the TT is a complete shed. There is a difference to doing a fast 50 and a fast 10, but it can be quite close, I can do a 50 2mph average slower than a 10, but thats when racing. When training it is more like 9-10 mph difference between a fast training 50 compared to a racing 10.

Agree with this,my 50 mile TT and my 10 mile TT times show a difference of about 2.5mph. Any 50 mile rides training or otherwise have been at least 9 mph slower. Training fast is the only way to ride fast and that doesn't mean 50 mile distances. If you can average a much faster speed over a shorter distance its that much easier to knock off a few mph for the longer rides.

Mike67

Same here...managed to scrape just over 20mph on a (my one and only to date) 50 TT and a best of just over 22.5mph on a 10. Both TTs run over much the same course (more laps on the 50) with a bit more climb on the 50 as it goes out into a lumpy bit that the 10 doesn't.

Strangely I'm more disappointed that I haven't done better on my many attempts at the 10 (it's a club TT) than I am with my 50 time.
From reading above though it seems to be the standard difference in speeds.
Must try harder

mattshrops

OP For me your times seem to be the opposite of mine. your 10 time would seem to be fairly slow, but hitting 20mph over 81 miles(which I believe ARE hilly on that ride) is a long way off for me :?

OK i,m one year in also -maybe a general lack of fitness compared to power?-for me that is. not sure.(maybe too many years drinking and smoking).anyhoo I,m pushing as hard as i can in training and keep improving cant do a lot more.

edit- sorry meant to add - maybe for yourself if you wish to improve your 10 times you need to work on top end power?(someone like sbezza will give advice here...)

nhoj

Now we're at 20 mph over a hilly 81 miles! If these numbers keep on going up, you'll be in the TdF...

jimmurray

The caledonia isn't a hilly route and > 20 average is doable for not too experienced cyclists.

Pigtail

Thanks for all your comments - it isn't that hilly, the organisers claim 2100 metres of climb or so, but it would still represent a huge achievement for me. We're looking at roughly 500 people from 5,000 achieving that kind of speed on the EC, though there will be a huge range of people, with all sorts of different targets, experience and motivation.

I wasn't participating in the previous thread, I just lifted some text from there. It was just from the comments I thought if I was struggling to break 28 minutes on a 10 tt, but was aiming for 20mph in a group over 80 miles - what did that mean for me? Should I give up any hope of being fast over short distances and put my effort into longer stuff, or should I work harder on speed? I'm coming to this too late, following too sedentary a lifestyle to achieve very much, but I'm hugely enjoying myself and seeing improvements in myself is motivation enough.

napoleond

I'm the opposite, no endurance- hilly 40mile TT (on normal road bike/shallow rims/normal helmet) average 19.5 but in a 10 I'll do 25mph on the same set up. I don't get time to train, most of my sessions are 1-1.5hrs, don't get the chance to do anything longer than that except maybe once every 3-4 weeks.

campbellrae1

I think a lot of it comes down to the type of rider you are, my riding buddy was Scottish junior hill climb champ among other things and can average a very good speed over a long hilly ride, I have no chance in hell of getting close to him, and yet on a 10-25 TT we are very evenly matched. I'm much taller and heavier than him, so where power to weight is involved I suffer.

As mentioned above, ignore most of the claims online, they can be either a little exaggerated or just total BS!

ricey155

Wouldn't take any notice of any claims unless people are showing full stats - cadence / speed & online tracking

im in my 3rd year and have zero claims to be a speed merchant, i wanna go faster i feel i can but i seem to be as quick doing a 10 as i am doing a 25 or 35 etc etc maybe at 6ft 2 im setup for endurance, never been a quick runner or mover but distance cross country has always been good

tried a 10 miler i managed 29mins thought id go quicker, 25 miler is always around 17-18mph, i guess its all about interval training make your legs go faster more often rather than pounding the miles

my bike holds me back, 2200's are shocking at a smooth change when going well, road surfaces are crap around Warwickshire so rythum is put off

cougie

Just looking at your goals - you can hit just over 20mph on a ten.
Now you want to hold that pace for eight times the distance ?

If you're not upping the training considerably - you won't get near it.

Even if you say on a mates wheel and he was strong enough to ride at that speed - I doubt you'd last for more than 30 miles tops.

What ate you like on longer rides ? What speeds do you average there ?

20mph isn't impossible at all but will need some decent training.

Pigtail

Hi I missed this yesterday - I thought this thread had died. 20 mph is a stretch but should be doable, whereas I've been pretty disappointed with my TT.

Here's last year's Etape Caledonia from cyclemeter.

http://maps.google.com/?q=http://share. ... 5-0733.kml

Now it was the first cycling event I had ever done, first time group riding, and I started far back and spent most of it going through traffic. Towards the end I found a group that suited me and if you look at the averages from mile 60 I did the last 21 miles at an average of over 20. I didn't have any cycling mates and wasn't sitting on a wheel.

Last year the adrenaline was amazing and I don't know if I'll be able to replicate that for the full event, however I'll have the benefit of more training and hopefully will be in a faster group from the start.