Employment Dispute & Tracing a Mobile Number

nweststeyn

Hi guys,

Looking for a bit of advice. I'm a theatre/venue technician at a large concert hall in Scotland. The venue is local govt. run. As well as technical tasks, I also double as front of house management. Around 4 months ago (3 years into my employment), myself and my colleagues were ordered to carry out a task of removing the waste traps below the 21 urinals in the building, cleaning them out by hand (and advised to use a chisel to chip off the calcified urine buildup) and re-fit them. I am not of the most strong-stomached disposition, so I raised a concern that while 'general cleaning assistance' is a bullet point listed in our job description, this goes beyond that and not only is it unreasonable to expect us to carry it out, we are untrained in working with plumbing fixtures, and I know I will not be able to carry out the task without vomiting.

To me, it's a simple case of a) it's not my job and b) it will (and has) directly affect my health and wellbeing in the workplace. Since being ordered (not asked) to do it, i've felt anxious and worried about having to do it.

My concerns we're raised after speaking to a number of City Council plumbers who assure me it is THEIR job, and a particularly unpleasant one at that. In addition, they have also indicated they have far more effective and safe ways to clear any buildup in urinal traps and surrounding plumbing without scraping it out by hand. I stated to my boss that while we had gone 3 years without having any sort of problem and carrying out any work asked, I was uncomfortable doing this and was concerned for my health. A number of meetings followed where she would not budge, and resulted 3 months later, in a statement from my boss that I would face disciplinary proceedings if I didnt carry out the work.

The 3 of us in this position have now taken collective bargaining action with support from our Trade Union, and the boss is not happy in the slightest. She refused to discuss the matter with the trade union rep and he has now advised us to make a more serious grievance claim to higher up in the organisation.

This is reading a little like a rant, but I was wondering if any of you - particularly in the plumbing trade or employment law - had any thoughts on this.

The second issue is that since involving the trade union, myself and my colleague have started receiving strange messages on our work-only mobile phones. We have both never given the number out to anyone and the texts we are receiving include our names. I received one saying "So Nico, you think you r tough?" and my colleague received similair. The internet does not help in identifying the owner of the number though, I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how I could figure out who is linked to the number sending these messages?

It's all a bit of a crap situation and once resolved I feel I can no longer carry on in my job, as the atmosphere is impossible to work in.

Thanks for your help guys,


Nico

jim453

Can't you use some kind of strong caustic solution to dissolve the calcium without taking off the traps. Line cleaner commonly used in pubs to clean the beer lines (funnily enough) does the trick. In fact, I've used line cleaner in the past to perform that very task.

Good luck.

nweststeyn

We have suggested this and our manager has told us absolutely no solution is to be poured down the drains and it must be done by hand. We have also suggested using a line & auger but again, we are told to do it by hand.

Regardless of the method, I'm not employed as a plumber, or even a cleaner.

Thanks, we are up against a particularly vindictive individual and her lack of openness to alternative solutions has led, in my opinion, to harrassment.

jim453

nweststeyn wrote:

We have suggested this and our manager has told us absolutely no solution is to be poured down the drains and it must be done by hand. We have also suggested using a line & auger but again, we are told to do it by hand.

Regardless of the method, I'm not employed as a plumber, or even a cleaner.

Thanks, we are up against a particularly vindictive individual and her lack of openness to alternative solutions has led, in my opinion, to harrassment.

Presumably she has a different use planned for the urinals other than their intended. Sounds a little unreasonable to me.

t.m.h.n.e.t

That really is a job for a plumber. I work as a cleaner and tbh,I've never heard anything as ridiculous. The worst I've had to deal with so far was a small amount of blood,barely worth using gloves for (I did though)

Take that as high as you can,because "general" or "flexible" wordings in contracts are often taken well above and beyond duty/training. It's not hard to remove a trap but you aren't a plumber at the end of the day.

Does the building drain waste into the sewer system or a septic tank? In my work at least we can't use bleach for example as it kills the septic tank bacteria,being a remote site with no main sewer system connection that can be rather rancid in summer.

Cleat Eastwood

I'd go the police with the phone messages, there may be a connection there may not, but thats weird, seems a bit too much of a coincidence.

nweststeyn

In terms of the phone messages, I can only say that in over 3 years I've never had a text before. The only people who have the number linked to my name are my boss, and the fire brigade & police, as I am an out of hours emergency contact for the building. Very suspicious but of course I have no proof.

nweststeyn

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

It's not hard to remove a trap but you aren't a plumber at the end of the day.

Does the building drain waste into the sewer system or a septic tank? In my work at least we can't use bleach for example as it kills the septic tank bacteria,being a remote site with no main sewer system connection that can be rather rancid in summer.

Indeed, I'm sure I could remove the trap, but I'm not going to. It's not just 'being difficult', I just feel the need to stand up for myself for the first time in years of niggling little demands.

Having checked with the plumber, the waste drains into the city sewer system, there is no septic tank as we are city centre located.

sungod

if you are both receiving inappropriate text messages

i) report it to the mobile carrier
ii) report it to the police, you can do it online
iii) report it to your hr department, in writing

don't delete the texts, might come in handy as evidence, but it's *highly* unlikely that carrier/police will make any effort to trace the sender - imho they only really investigate if you are rich/powerful - the point is to get it on the record

iv) report to your hr department your concerns about what you are being asked to do, in writing

Cleat Eastwood

Well it's not quite your situation but I have a friend in the police force who received odd messages and he ignored them - when his bosses found out they went ballistic on him, saying that it could have been part of a wider anti social scheme. Obviously you're not in the police and it could just be a complete coincidence but you may not b the only one getting them.

It could of course be any of the beauties form the girls in lycra, complaining after seeing you looking at the munters thread, hehe.

nweststeyn

Let's hope! Maybe it's a Man in Warm Gloves.

Airwave

Why don't you try ringing the mob no when your near to the people you suspect of sending the texts.You never know their phone may start ringing...just a thought.

diplodicus

removing the waste traps below the 21 urinals in the building, cleaning them out by hand (and advised to use a chisel to chip off the calcified urine buildup) and re-fit them.

Hi Nico
I am a plumber and I would not clean them with a chisel. I would take them off, bin them and replace with nice shiny new ones. They are quite cheap and chipping away with a chisel is very labour intensive.

If they are not blocked or running slow at the moment I would feel she is making up jobs to upset you. If they are blocked then she should call a plumber to replace them.

Definitely not your job. Good luck.

nweststeyn

Thanks diplodicus!

tim_wand

You have attempted mediation. this has not worked. Ask your boss to state clearly in writing why they are threatening disciplinary action and what breach of contract this represents?

Raise a grievance through your organisations official Complaints and Grievance policy (This should be time bound to a response from your employer)

If you dont confer with the response to your grievance appeal it and refer the response to your Union,

If your employer still insists on you carrying out the work or facing disciplinary procedures then raise a legal case form through your union.

With regard to the mobile phone messages, as per previous responses.

Report in writing the matter to your H/R department and Mobile phone operator,

Report the matter to the police.

From what you have outlined I would also raise a grievance for Bullying and Harrasement against your Manager.
Not as an accusation for the phone texts but for threatening disciplinary action for non compliance to an unreasonable or non contracted task.

bagpusscp

One reason why i will never own a mobile phone.

DIESELDOG

Someone's extracting the urine and also bullying. Best of luck sorting it, especially as your boss sounds a bit of a prat.

Mind you, napalm may work, dead easy to use by all accounts.

Love n hugs

DD

Special K

Bad luck mate.

But am I the only one whose first reaction was along the lines of

'There's a recession on. Quit whining.'

This country is not going to recover economically by slavishly referring to job descriptions.

Similarly the words 'trade union' are unlikely to feature in any account of 'britain's remarkable recovery'.

nweststeyn

There's a recession on. That doesn't mean that when I say to my boss... "if we can't afford a plumber, then you could supply some caustic soda and a line cleaner and if we must, we can take care of it" and the response was: "No, take it off and do it by hand" that I'm going to do it. A little flexibility goes both ways. I have avoided involving trade unions until the last possible moment - when I'm threatened with dismissal. I'm not above cleaning toilets, I clean vomit and faeces and blood from floors and surfaces when required to keep our facilities safe for patrons. I draw the line at cleaning the internals of a plumbing system. I've been present when one of these has been removed by a plumber before, and the smell is beyond any combination of sh*t and tuna and other smelly stuff. I simply can't do it.

nweststeyn

Plus, I fail to see how my cleaning calcified urine buildups would aid, in any way, in an economic recovery for the UK? Regardless of what I'm doing at work, I'm still paying my dues in terms of income tax and N.I.

seanoconn

Special K wrote:

Bad luck mate.

But am I the only one whose first reaction was along the lines of

'There's a recession on. Quit whining.'

This country is not going to recover economically by slavishly referring to job descriptions.

Similarly the words 'trade union' are unlikely to feature in any account of 'britain's remarkable recovery'.

Are you just pretending to be a tw@t? :roll:

Jez mon

Special K wrote:

Bad luck mate.

But am I the only one whose first reaction was along the lines of

'There's a recession on. Quit whining.'

This country is not going to recover economically by slavishly referring to job descriptions.

Similarly the words 'trade union' are unlikely to feature in any account of 'britain's remarkable recovery'.

Not really, if people keeping to their job descriptions, is in some way keeping this country in recession, then those job descriptions are appallingly badly written. Trade unions may not be great for productivity, neither is the HSE. But there's a balance to be struck between economic productivity, and working conditions...

verylonglegs

I didn't actually think the special one deserved a response.

DIESELDOG

verylonglegs wrote:

I didn't actually think the special one deserved a response.

I do, obviously Special by name and Special by nature.

Love n hugs

DD

DrKJM

Tell your boss that you're not sure how to do it and would she mind demonstrating one first.

rc856

To to town on the cow!! Up the ante with the trade union and take their advice regarding grievances etc.
It's good that it isn't just you making a complaint on your own.

As for the text messages, you could have a contravention of the telecommunications act and after reporting it
to the police they could carry out a subscriber check (it's all data protection etc)

but

these things cost money and it won't be done after 1 message and they messages would need to be of a threatening or abusive nature unless they were causing you alarm by the sheer volume of them you were receiving.

Don't be put off by people saying the police won't do anything 'as usual'.
You report an incident, it's recorded and you get an incident number. That can't just disappear
unless you forget about it and don't chase it up etc.

Good luck

siamon

nweststeyn wrote:

We have suggested this and our manager has told us absolutely no solution is to be poured down the drains and it must be done by hand. We have also suggested using a line & auger but again, we are told to do it by hand.

Regardless of the method, I'm not employed as a plumber, or even a cleaner.

Thanks, we are up against a particularly vindictive individual and her lack of openness to alternative solutions has led, in my opinion, to harrassment.

I have a huge amount of respect for people who do crappy jobs with a smile and very little reward. Huge frigging respect and gratitude.

However, previous experience and one word in the above would suggest that you are entering a battle that you will lose.

priory

I am fairly sure that the HSE require a worker dealing with such offensive but also bio-hazardous waste as the contents of an old public toilet sump to be extensively trained and provided with a pile of protocols and guidelines up to approximately the neck.

For example, needles get found in u-bends and the like , viz: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/waste19.pdf
I suppose you have been given the needle-stick policy .

Have you been trained in the knowledge and avoidance of diseases that you would be at risk of? Has vaccination against Hep B and Hep A been offered. Have you been declared suitable for such work by an occupational physician?
If sewage pipes are involved is there a risk of leptospirosis and should you be tested for antibodies before exposure in case of subsequent illness? Exactly what protective equipment has been provided and how is it to be disposed of after use has made it hazardous? You would be expected to have substantial gloves and an impervious suit plus face protection. How and where is the transition from protective to civvies going to be made? Is there a shower?
viz: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/waste22.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg198.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg197.pdf
HSE VIDEO Microbiological risks: working with sewage and sludge. Workers in a number of industries are at risk from contact with sewage. This video shows the risks presented by a number of different work activities. It illustrates the importance of personal protective equipment, good hygiene practices and training.0 7176 1897 8 £40.00 12mins

These are just thoughts, but I would have thought getting a couple of quotes from plumbers, who have all of this sorted, would be cheaper by miles than getting the ice-cream girl set up to do it.
if she makes life very hard for you then a complaint to the hse and employment tribunal and discussions with solicitors might be considered, if only as retribution. Mutiny is always a last resort, though.

Mayniac

Pour a cupful of vinegar into each trap to soak overnight, every night for a week.
It's anti bacterial, kills odours, dissolves limescale, and will eliminate the ergonomic and handling risks of removing the traps, along with the risks of infection and nausea; and a lot less labour intensive and therefore cheaper, (but then this is local government management we're on about here...)

outcastjack

Special K wrote:

Bad luck mate.

But am I the only one whose first reaction was along the lines of

'There's a recession on. Quit whining.'

This country is not going to recover economically by slavishly referring to job descriptions.

Similarly the words 'trade union' are unlikely to feature in any account of 'britain's remarkable recovery'.

as the OP has offered to do the job in an adequete and indeed probably more cost effective way I am afraid in this case i cannot agree with you

nweststeyn

Thanks everyone. We'll keep following the correct procedures to settle the dispute. Safe to say, none of the things mentioned by priory in the post with all the HSE links have been offered or checked. The only PPE we have been supplied with is a pair of rubber gloves.

Also, as mentioned, I know she won't back down so this will go on for a fairly long time. I'm only a few months off resigning anyway but I want to get this sorted for the sake of my two colleagues who will be there for a long time yet. I'll keep you posted if anything interesting develops. The risk she faces is, if she wins somehow, she will lose all 3 full time members of staff in one go and all the knowledge of the job that goes with us.