usual frothing in the comments....

PBo

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24031972-i-remember-screaming-stop-stop-says-cyclist-dragged-under-left-turning-tanker.do

W1

He cycled up the inside of a left indicating tanker, at a junction, when the tanker was within the ASL already? I can't say, from the article, that he is without fault.

asprilla

Am I right in reading that he pulled up level with the left front wheel of a left indicating articulated vehicle?

rick_chasey

These are the two salient points for me.

Crash investigator Pc Clive Austin told the court that tanker driver Nigel Gummer, 54, of Hadleigh, Essex, would have been able to see Mr Moore approaching for at least 12 seconds in a rear-view mirror as he waited at the junction.

Pc Austin said Mr Moore had the right of way under the Highway Code but admitted it would have been "a pertinent move" for the cyclist to show "some level of caution".

PBo

W1 wrote:

He cycled up the inside of a left indicating tanker, at a junction, when the tanker was within the ASL already? I can't say, from the article, that he is without fault.

.... but there are still classic comments which just bash cyclists in general....

This kind of accident helps no-one in the ongoing debate......whilst the cyclist had right of way etc. I would never have done what he did. I don't want "but i had right of way...!" as my epithet! However, by being in the ASL, the lorry driver exascerbated his error even further.....

I just end up thinking "drivers fault, and he shouldn't have got away with it, but what on earth was the cyclist thinking?"

W1

PBo wrote:

W1 wrote:

He cycled up the inside of a left indicating tanker, at a junction, when the tanker was within the ASL already? I can't say, from the article, that he is without fault.

.... but there are still classic comments which just bash cyclists in general....

This kind of accident helps no-one in the ongoing debate......whilst the cyclist had right of way etc. I would never have done what he did. I don't want "but i had right of way...!" as my epithet! However, by being in the ASL, the lorry driver exascerbated his error even further.....

I just end up thinking "drivers fault, and he shouldn't have got away with it, but what on earth was the cyclist thinking?"

True.

It's not clear if the HGV was in the ASL illegally or not (i.e. if he got caught by the lights).

rebs

If he was next to the left wheel of the lorry. No way the driver could have seen him? Perhaps before hand but who sits at a junction glued to your rear view mirrors?

Don't mean to sound harsh but anyone stopping alongside a lorry at a junction is asking for trouble....

People need to learn that you need to learn to assume that people in cars/lorries etc don't see you and ride accordinly. It's not the best way to ride but it's the best awway to make it alive to your destination.

Sounds like the cyclist will get the "win" but I do get the impression that both driver and cyclist failed to avoid this.

Kieran_Burns

So he cycled up the inside of a HGV while it was stopped at the lights and indicating left?

Err......

SimonAH

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

Wallace1492

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

SimonAH

Wallace1492 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

Hmmm

NSFW

http://i.imgur.com/tT45Q.png

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008 ... e-butt.jpg

Arrest those simians!

W1

Wallace1492 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

Erm, not illegal since the 1960s. Not that I want to encourage you.

suzyb

Wallace1492 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

Suicide is illegal. WTF! It's my life, I should be able to end it if I want to.

clarkey cat

how about suicide by unilaterally appointed proxy?

asprilla

clarkey cat wrote:

how about suicide by unilaterally appointed proxy?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 201064737/

Wallace1492

W1 wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

Erm, not illegal since the 1960s. Not that I want to encourage you.

Thought at first you meant that poking things into dumb animals was not an offence since the 1960's!

However, point taken, suicide is legal here, but if you c0ck up, you get done for a Breach of the Peace! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation#Scotland

bails87

I'd hope that a professional driver would be watching his mirrors while he's waiting, and check them all before pulling away, but in reality I know it probably won't happen. And even if he does look, he may not see a cyclist.

I think the problem is a lack of road awareness from the cyclist tbh, and possibly over-reliance on a cyclelane to protect him. I'm confident enough to ignore cycle lanes where they're useless or worse, many people aren't, so they stick to their bit of blue/red/green paint and think it'll keep them safe.

W1

Wallace1492 wrote:

W1 wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

Erm, not illegal since the 1960s. Not that I want to encourage you.

Thought at first you meant that poking things into dumb animals was not an offence since the 1960's!

However, point taken, suicide is legal here, but if you c0ck up, you get done for a Breach of the Peace! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation#Scotland

Having relations with animals is a breach of S.69 of the Sexual Offences Act.....

clarkey cat

s.69(3)(b)

provides an exemption provided;

(i) the offence takes place in Wales;
(ii) the perpetrator is Welsh;
(iii) the animal is a sheep;
(iv) the animal was born in and has never left Wales; and
(v) the animal is not intended for public consumption as defined in the Abbatoir (Safety at Work) Act 1948.

Kieran_Burns

W1 wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

W1 wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

It's easy to be blind to the idiocy of your actions when technically you are legally in the right...in this case I genuinely feel sorry for the driver who probably also has trouble sleeping at night.

Not to say I don't have sympathy for the cyclist, I do, but it being perfectly legal to poke your head into an alligator's mouth does not a sensible action make.

You may find that poking things into dumb animals is NOT perfectly legal.

Suicide is illegal, but not many get prosecuted for it. Yet this guy does the cycling equivalent and is suing! (OK, am sympathetic to a point, but come on, the inside of a left turning lorry! Just because a cycle lane is there does not mean it is safe to take it.)

Erm, not illegal since the 1960s. Not that I want to encourage you.

Thought at first you meant that poking things into dumb animals was not an offence since the 1960's!

However, point taken, suicide is legal here, but if you c0ck up, you get done for a Breach of the Peace! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation#Scotland

Having relations with animals is a breach of S.69 of the Sexual Offences Act.....

So, it's okay as long as it's not your brother or sister?

Kerguelen

Kieran_Burns wrote:

So he cycled up the inside of a HGV while it was stopped at the lights and indicating left?

Err......

Indeed. Just the sort of thing that sets off my 'Danger Will Robinson' alarm.

I should probably just be diplomatic here and say that his positioning was... ill-advised.

notsoblue

bails87 wrote:

I'd hope that a professional driver would be watching his mirrors while he's waiting, and check them all before pulling away, but in reality I know it probably won't happen. And even if he does look, he may not see a cyclist.

I think the problem is a lack of road awareness from the cyclist tbh, and possibly over-reliance on a cyclelane to protect him. I'm confident enough to ignore cycle lanes where they're useless or worse, many people aren't, so they stick to their bit of blue/red/green paint and think it'll keep them safe.

I think this is generally true of most road users. Pedestrians often walk out across Zebra crossings without looking first, and drivers will drive more carelessly (faster, without their full attention on the road) when they're on very clearly marked roads. Hasn't there been research that shows that if you remove road markings in certain situations people are more aware of their surroundings when they're driving/walking/riding? Same thing with cycle lanes, cyclists will assume that it offers them a degree of protection which allows them to relax their awareness. Which isn't entirely unreasonable tbh.

coopster_the_1st

I'm struggling to find fault with the lorry driver here and can only see this giving cyclists a bad name.

A lorry is signalling left at a junction, why would you not go to the right of it or wait behind it?

Additionally, lorries do not accelerate that fast so if you arrive alongside the front wheel at 10-15mph and you notice the change of lights you would be able to accelerate out of the way by the time the lorries turn has been started.

Coming up behind a stopped or slow moving left turning lorry should be setting off alarm bells in your brain

What am I missing here?

sketchley

Fault of the lorry driver was blocking the ASL and failing to check for a cyclist before turning. That being said I'd like to think I wouldn't have gone down the inside. The fact that we all know the cyclist was placing themselves in danger by doing what they did, doesn't remove the blame from the lorry driver.

jds_1981

Yes, if you're in an HGV in an ASL, you really should be double checking...
Also HGVs shouldn't have these blindspot design flaws.

mybreakfastconsisted

Any independent proof the driver was indicating?

Why wasn't the prosecution witness called?

bails87

Sketchley wrote:

Fault of the lorry driver was blocking the ASL

The lorry could have been completely legally in the ASL, not saying he was, but it's not automatically a 'guilty' marker.

veronese68

Also he wouldn't be able to see a cyclist by his front wheel. At that point he could have looked, it wouldn't have helped. They say the cyclist would have been visible for 12 seconds as he cycled up the side of him. How did they work that out. 12 seconds is quite a long time, but how many of you have been sat at lights in your car and check all your mirrors while you are waiting at lights rather than have a good scratch, retune the radio or adjust your make up.
The cyclist may have been legally right, but we are ultimately responsible for our own safety. It's up to us to be careful as we are the vulnerable ones.

Paulie W

I would personally never have been in the position that the cyclist was in but leaving that aside if I'm a HGV driver I should be aware that cyclists might be coming up my left side at traffic lights, junctions, because cycle lanes 'tell' cyclists to do this and it is very common pratice. As a consequence rather than retuning my radio, having a good scratch I should be checking my mirror - the whole 12 seconds thing is suggesting that the driver had ample opportunity to check his mirrors and see the cyclist coming up his inside so should have been conscious of the possibility that he was sat in his blind spot.

Jay dubbleU

Cyclist would be invisible to the driver if he was alonside the cab - Cycling + did an article on HGV visibility - there is an area alongside the cab and immediately in front of the vehicle where a cyclist would be completely invisible.

Why would you ride up alongside a vehicle (HGV or otherwise) which is signalling a left turn ?

Paulie W

Jay dubbleU wrote:

Cyclist would be invisible to the driver if he was alonside the cab - Cycling + did an article on HGV visibility - there is an area alongside the cab and immediately in front of the vehicle where a cyclist would be completely invisible.

Why would you ride up alongside a vehicle (HGV or otherwise) which is signalling a left turn ?

But surely the point is that he didnt just magically appear in the blind spot; he perhaps foolishly rode into it but the HGV driver had time to see him before he disappeared into the blind spot but appears not to have checked his inside mirror.