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Too early for top end training?

Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
I have 40 mins to spare before breakfast on the turbo, is it too early in the season to be doing top end training e.g. 4min intervals where my bpm goes to 90-95% of mhr? I go on the road 3 times per week (weather permitting) in company which pushes me hard for 30-60 miles. I rarely do long steady miles. Last season I felt completely tired out by August after riding short distance TT's regularly.

Posts

  • I think you answered your own question. Unless you are aiming for some very early TT's, it's probably a little early, everything I've read emphasis's base training for at least another 2-3 weeks or more...
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    4min intervals isn't top end - that's VO2max type intervals. No reason why you shouldn't do them IMO.
    More problems but still living....
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Don't relie on HR for such short intervals, interval is done before you get the HR high enough. As to whether they are too early only you can say. I wouldn't be able to do that sort of effort before breakfast, well not good quality ones anyhow.

    As to getting completely tired out by August, I think the clue is this little nugget of information "I rarely do long steady miles". It is this sort of training that gives you a good foundation to build the harder intensity work on, without it you have little endurance, and alot of high intensity work without it will leave you pretty tired especially after several months.

    The best TT's are likely to be when the weather is warmer in the summer, why not try and build a solid base and do the higher intensity work once you start TTing again. Why not use the 40 mins for a solid high end tempo session, or perhaps a couple of 15 min sweetspot intervals.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    I believe aerobic intervals are entirely appropriate throughout the year. so 4 min ones, go for it. I'd avoid the sub 1 minute with long recovery, the gains from that are short lived.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,029
    I have rejigged my training as per Coggans
    http://freewebs.com/velodynamics2/traininglevels.pdf
    I think it is working a treat.
    No pwer meter but using the HR equivalent quite effectively.
    Levels 2/3/4 at the moment.
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    If you have a power meter then forget about HR especially for short intervals.
    More problems but still living....
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    Go out on your own then to get the steady miles in, even the harder shorter rides are good, just need to keep them up during the racing season, and perhaps not race so often (though I have no idea of how much you race).

    Just an example, I race from Feb to Oct, but one of my peaks will be early August just as you are getting tired. You just can't go full bore for a full season on just high intensity stuff IMO.

    Also as mentioned if you use power, forget the HR response, just use power to do such short intervals, and you should be doing the intervals at a steady wattage, and you will see your HR climb during the interval, but I doubt it will reach Vo2Max HR on the first couple, as you do more of the intervals it will get near there in the end.
  • JimboPlobJimboPlob Posts: 397
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    Isnt 1 minute of rest quite short for a V02 interval. Surely you wouldnt be properly recovered to hit the same target?
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    JimboPlob wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    Isnt 1 minute of rest quite short for a V02 interval. Surely you wouldnt be properly recovered to hit the same target?
    That is correct but I have been trying to do a quality work out in 35 mins.
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    amaferanga wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    If you have a power meter then forget about HR especially for short intervals.
    Surely a HRM is an indication of how much stress one is putting on ones heart.
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    If you have a power meter then forget about HR especially for short intervals.
    Surely a HRM is an indication of how much stress one is putting on ones heart.

    It is just too slow to respond though, for longer efforts yes HR can be a reasonable indicator, but other things affect HR as well, general tiredness, time of day, if you have a cold etc. All HR shows is how fast your heart is beating. If you have a way of measuring power then this is far more accurate than HR will be. Measure it by all means, I still use my HRM, but don't work by it if you have a superior way of measuring effort and intensity.
  • PseudonymPseudonym Posts: 1,032
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Surely a HRM is an indication of how much stress one is putting on ones heart.

    as above - your HR usually lags behind your effort level while you are ramping up, so for short intervals like tabatas or similar, it's quite possible you will have finished the session before your HR catches up.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,551
    JGSI wrote:
    I have rejigged my training as per Coggans
    http://freewebs.com/velodynamics2/traininglevels.pdf
    I think it is working a treat.
    No pwer meter but using the HR equivalent quite effectively.
    Levels 2/3/4 at the moment.


    Just reading through that I'm a bit confused. When it gets to level 4 and above it shows the average HR level at more than 100%. Am I misreading it as that doesn't seem possible?
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Pross wrote:
    Just reading through that I'm a bit confused. When it gets to level 4 and above it shows the average HR level at more than 100%. Am I misreading it as that doesn't seem possible?

    The percentages are of threshold HR, not max HR.
    More problems but still living....
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    JimboPlob wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    Isnt 1 minute of rest quite short for a V02 interval. Surely you wouldnt be properly recovered to hit the same target?
    That is correct but I have been trying to do a quality work out in 35 mins.

    Doesn't sound like quality to me. If you're measuring power (with what btw?) then how does the power of the 3rd or 4th effort compare to the first? If you're hitting the powers you should be hitting for such a short interval then there's no way you'd be able to maintain that with only 1min recovery.
    More problems but still living....
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,551
    amaferanga wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Just reading through that I'm a bit confused. When it gets to level 4 and above it shows the average HR level at more than 100%. Am I misreading it as that doesn't seem possible?

    The percentages are of threshold HR, not max HR.


    Cheers - makes a bit more sense now!!
  • JimboPlobJimboPlob Posts: 397
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    JimboPlob wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    Isnt 1 minute of rest quite short for a V02 interval. Surely you wouldnt be properly recovered to hit the same target?
    That is correct but I have been trying to do a quality work out in 35 mins.

    This sounds like a bit of a "grey zone" session.
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    JimboPlob wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    JimboPlob wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    Thanks for all your advice, I know I probably do need some LSD but the group I go with tend to make it quite hard, I will start going one morning on my own. The reason why my HR goes so high is that I try to keep a steady watt output for the 6 x 4 mins (1min rest) and I hope as I get fitter my HR will lower for the same output.

    Isnt 1 minute of rest quite short for a V02 interval. Surely you wouldnt be properly recovered to hit the same target?
    That is correct but I have been trying to do a quality work out in 35 mins.

    This sounds like a bit of a "grey zone" session.
    I do not know what a grey zone session but I find it hard. I do maintain a steady wattage output for the 6 intervals but that output is very low in comparison to most racing men. A couple of years ago I was maintaining the same wattage for 2 X15 mins and that was the objective of these present sessions. However I found I could not keep it up for more than 4 mins as my HR went up to 95% MHR. My aim is to try to get a measure of fitness by comparing bpm with a standard wattage on my turbo.
  • Old Tuggo wrote:
    My aim is to try to get a measure of fitness by comparing bpm with a standard wattage on my turbo.
    The best measure of fitness is how much power you can maximally sustain for durations of relevance to you/your goal event(s). HR is redundant.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    I do not know what a grey zone session but I find it hard. I do maintain a steady wattage output for the 6 intervals but that output is very low in comparison to most racing men. A couple of years ago I was maintaining the same wattage for 2 X15 mins and that was the objective of these present sessions. However I found I could not keep it up for more than 4 mins as my HR went up to 95% MHR. My aim is to try to get a measure of fitness by comparing bpm with a standard wattage on my turbo.

    How are you measuring power? Power meter or turbo?
    More problems but still living....
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    amaferanga wrote:
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    I do not know what a grey zone session but I find it hard. I do maintain a steady wattage output for the 6 intervals but that output is very low in comparison to most racing men. A couple of years ago I was maintaining the same wattage for 2 X15 mins and that was the objective of these present sessions. However I found I could not keep it up for more than 4 mins as my HR went up to 95% MHR. My aim is to try to get a measure of fitness by comparing bpm with a standard wattage on my turbo.

    How are you measuring power? Power meter or turbo?
    I have an old Tacx Excell which I have never bothered calibrating to my weight due to the complicated instructions. Historically I know what I have achieved on it, therefore how much power I can sustain over an interval (which I can vary) is a measurement. The sustainability is confirmed by the HRM i.e. if say 95% MHR is reached I know I have reached my limit.
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Just as a bit of info, I can do a similar session at similar power, but my HR might be 10 bpm or more outsometimes, depending on how much training fatigue I have, how much sleep I have had etc. If you have power use this, and perhaps use HR as a guide, but don't be a slave to HR, power is far more accurate to work from. The caveat to this is as long as the power measurement is repeatable and stable (with regards to temps etc)
  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    It's not really clear what you are trying to achieve. You wanted to do your 2x15 power from 2 years ago, were not able to (there is your measure of fitness) so have decided to do 4 on 1 off at this power. What is your thinking behind this? Is 4 on 1 off x6 significantly easier than 2x15 mins?

    Better IMO to decide first what kind of session you want to do, then choose an effort/power/HR that is achievable for you at the moment.
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    Tom Dean wrote:
    It's not really clear what you are trying to achieve. You wanted to do your 2x15 power from 2 years ago, were not able to (there is your measure of fitness) so have decided to do 4 on 1 off at this power. What is your thinking behind this? Is 4 on 1 off x6 significantly easier than 2x15 mins?

    Better IMO to decide first what kind of session you want to do, then choose an effort/power/HR that is achievable for you at the moment.
    If one decides to do a certain session but after a few minutes your body may tell you that planned session is not achievable. Then one can either aim to do the same length on a lower wattage or shorten the length and retain the same wattage. I try to keep the same wattage and hopefully in a few weeks I will increase the length. You appear to be advising that I lower the wattage and not do any top end training at present.
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    There are various ways to improve power, unless you have decent fitness I would er on the side of caution over high intensity short intervals. Better to get a good foundation and then build on that with high intensity stuff. That is not so say just pedal easily for 35-40 minutes, but you could do a high tempo effort for that duration, or more sweetspot efforts. These will see increases in power and are probably more repeatable on a daily basis than hammer yourself for 35 mins and then not being able to do a similar effort for a few days, and will help build a foundation to really hard 4-5 mins efforts at a later date.

    Regular and progessive training will see better gains than just hammering the body infrequently IMO, then again you maybe doing this only a daily basis. Just remember you can't rush fitness gains, and make sure you allow proper recovery from the efforts to benefit from them.
  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Old Tuggo wrote:
    If one decides to do a certain session but after a few minutes your body may tell you that planned session is not achievable. Then one can either aim to do the same length on a lower wattage or shorten the length and retain the same wattage. I try to keep the same wattage and hopefully in a few weeks I will increase the length. You appear to be advising that I lower the wattage and not do any top end training at present.

    Obviously if you start too hard on a particular session it is necessary to adjust the rest of the intervals in order to be able to complete the workout. No need to repeat this for every session though.

    I would not consider 4mins on 1min off as top end, if you are hitting 95% MHR at the end of your first rep I think it highly unlikely that you are maintaining the same power through 6 reps. VO2 max type intervals of around 4 mins are commonly done with equal recovery time. You couldn't complete 6 reps with only 1 minute recovery.

    I'm not sure why you are determined to work at x watts. The fact that you were training at a certain power 2 years ago is irrelevant.

    Figure out what you want to achieve from the session, 'top end' or whatever, and design a session to suit.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    For a 20 minute threshold interval I would normally start off about 20W below my target and slowly ramp it up. Try that, you might be surprised what you can do. And do the interval length you want (i.e. 15min) at the Wattage you can do, not the Wattage you want for the interval length you can manage.
    More problems but still living....
  • Old TuggoOld Tuggo Posts: 482
    Thanks for all your advice, I have obviously been too optimistic when I start the sessions. Considering my lack of miles over the winter I will have to revise my targets - it was just the thought that I should be able to do it made me keep having a bash. I am now banking on that a week's training in Majorca next month will bring me the basic fitness to compete in the early season's TT's.
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