training - healthy diet but gaining weight

Will Nunez

http://www.horwichrmiharriers.co.uk/coa ... factor.htm

calory counting alone wont help with reducing body fat. Not so simples

In order to achieve a low weight, by calorie counting you can lose muscle as well as fat.
A very low calorie intake –can put your your body into ‘starvation mode’ and starts using your muscles to supply it with calories rather than using its fat stores, which it tries to protect at all costs.

This is a worry, especially if you’re trying to lose weight, because the amount of muscle you have in your body helps to determine your metabolic rate. Consequently, when muscle mass is reduced, your metabolic rate lowers with the result that you need fewer calories to maintain your existing weight. Without BFI you will not know what you are losing.

jgsi

mmm, we are not average, we are cyclists .....

keef66

Nobody is talking about very low calorie intakes. The OP was complaining of increasing weight from 12 to 12.5 stone despite exercising.

I suspect therefore he has some body fat to lose, and he's been taking in more calories than he's burning. It probably is simples.

evsy

keef66 wrote:

Nobody is talking about very low calorie intakes. The OP was complaining of increasing weight from 12 to 12.5 stone despite exercising.

I suspect therefore he has some body fat to lose, and he's been taking in more calories than he's burning. It probably is simples.

hey every1

sorry to have caused such a intense debate.

just to clarify what i was asking; basically despite having the same diet as before i started to cycle, i have gained half a stone. My diet is no different. im not eating any more than i was before and have this logged in my calorie counter app. so was curious about why i seem to be gaining weight.

Anyway, i have been to see my gp this morning. i wasnt going to but i thought i would be safe.
he has taken blood and said it could well be an underactive thiroid. so pretty pleased i went now.
he said the results will be back by weds next week, so will let you all no what they show.

Thanks for all the repsonses tho

Evsy

keef66

Eek! Good luck with that.

Will Nunez

All the best!

Muffintop

Yeh, good luck mate!

t.m.h.n.e.t

Will Nunez wrote:

Im putting across an opinion that calories counting and BMI are not the best, in my opinion and experience, I appreciate you have a different one and am not saying you are wrong.

Im saying that using BFI and focussing on Fat content will give a better indicator for exercise and diet.

Focusing on "fat content"?

Changing your BFI is done by controlling the balance of carbs/proteins/fat rather than calorie counting.

For the purpose of clarity. Please explain exactly what BFI is. I can find no existance of this weight loss miracle.

I have not said stop carbs, you are deliberately misquoting, Im saying by shifting the ratios you can change the BFI.

Less carbs isn't the answer.

Surely the goal of a cyclist is not just to be light but to have strength. Id rather be 12 stone with a BFI of 8% than 11 stone and a BFI of 25%.

To be strong you need muscle,to raise BMR you need muscle. To build muscle,you need to be eating enough of both carbohydrates and protein - to maintain muscle you need to feed it and use it.

And im not advocating eating a bull everynight either and eating excessive protein. Protein is an energy giver too, its just slower burn, but that means you feel fuller longer.

Depends on the source and how much of it.

[quote[If you wish to discuss the minute details of the benefits of carbs/proteins etc, im open to discuss on a seperate thread (discussion not attacking). For the sake of the OP lets debate the merits of BFI or BMI in assisting him by providing alternatives to help him rather than pick holes in each others theories[/quote]
I enjoy and welcome discussion.

http://www.horwichrmiharriers.co.uk/coa ... factor.htm
calory counting alone wont help with reducing body fat. Not so simples
In order to achieve a low weight, by calorie counting you can lose muscle as well as fat.
A very low calorie intake –can put your your body into ‘starvation mode’ and starts using your muscles to supply it with calories rather than using its fat stores, which it tries to protect at all costs.

I order to lose weight you need to stop eating crap,stop eating too much - eat in a calorie deficit and exercise. Starvation mode is a myth. If you burn your glycogen stores which equate to roughly 90mins exercise worth(presuming your diet it decent),your body will catabolise muscle tissue as this is the next easiest store of energy.

This is a worry, especially if you’re trying to lose weight, because the amount of muscle you have in your body helps to determine your metabolic rate. Consequently, when muscle mass is reduced, your metabolic rate lowers with the result that you need fewer calories to maintain your existing weight. Without BFI you will not know what you are losing.

^This. Pro bodybuilders consume 4000-6000+calories per day for a reason

---

I don't buy this 'putting on muscle' thing. Half a stone of muscles is alot, you would see a significant difference in your leg size!

1lb of muscle is equivalent in size to a golf ball 1lb of fat is equivalent to a tennis ball. You choose..

If you are only doing a 60 mile ride on the weekend, then you maybe need to cut down on your midweek food consumption. There is a fine line on how much to cut back by, which you will probably only work out by trial and error. It may even be as simple as a couple slices of bread.

Days with no cycling/exercise it is sensible to eat a little less than a workout day,but still eating enough to promote weight loss,promote muscle maintenance,growth and recovery is the key part.

If you don't want to cut back on food during the week, then you need to start thinking about incorporating some midweek training.

Spot on.

Will Nunez

I feel like im repeating myself here, BF% is not about weight loss its about fat loss, which may result on weight loss or muscle weight increase depending upion the diet. Im not disagreeing with less calories = weightloss. Im just stating that watching your Body fat index or body fat percentage can help to focus on what you lose and this is done by looking at what you eat rather (or as well as ) than how many calories you consume.

You arent a lawyer are you? Theres a level of pedantry in your responses that ....no you are an auditor arent you? :-)

keef66

I don't know where you buy your meat, but I'd expect a pound of muscle to be a lot bigger than a golf ball!

Will Nunez

keef66 wrote:

I don't know where you buy your meat, but I'd expect a pound of muscle to be a lot bigger than a golf ball!

t.m.h.n.e.t

Will Nunez wrote:

I feel like im repeating myself here, BF% is not about weight loss its about fat loss, which may result on weight loss or muscle weight increase depending upion the diet. Im not disagreeing with less calories = weightloss. Im just stating that watching your Body fat index or body fat percentage can help to focus on what you lose and this is done by looking at what you eat rather (or as well as ) than how many calories you consume.

BF% is a measure of progress only,it's as simple to look in the mirror. Losing fat = lost weight also. It's down to your exercise and diet to determine where your losses are.Subcutaneous fat and/or muslce.

You arent a lawyer are you? Theres a level of pedantry in your responses that ....no you are an auditor arent you? :-)

Very much neither of those

I don't know where you buy your meat, but I'd expect a pound of muscle to be a lot bigger than a golf ball!

Theoretical indication of size difference. Golf ball sized meat wouldn't be tasty at all

Will Nunez

It's down to your exercise and diet to determine where your losses are.Subcutaneous fat and/or muslce.

And thats all im trying to say by looking at your diet (and exercise) you determine what you lose, and BF% or BFI is a measurement of where you are at. I Like the graphic. Ive calorie counted as a method of losing weight and despite getting skinny never got toned. Ive also noticed in past diets that I lose power and get fatigued.

Since using BFI ive kept the strength, and lost some weight and I got toned as well bonus! But for me using the BF% for me personally saw a step change in my cycling.

Suppose we wont agree on how that diet is made up. All I can say is it works for me when i want to trim fat i reduce carbs and increase protein (vast over simplification - but thats the essence of what I do). If I want to lose weight I combine that with less overall.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Will Nunez wrote:

Ive calorie counted as a method of losing weight and despite getting skinny never got toned. Ive also noticed in past diets that I lose power and get fatigued.

So did I to the tune of almost 4stone lost,can easily cause disordered eating when those who follow apps like myfitnesspal do so religiously and feel guilty going 5 into the red. I don't particularly rate mfp in the first instance but it's handy at times.

Since using BFI ive kept the strength, and lost some weight and I got toned as well bonus! But for me using the BF% for me personally saw a step change in my cycling.

In my case my loss was a bit too quick,I have enough excess skin to make bf calipers and mirrors useless. Scales are no indication either as I do spend time in the gym on my upper body and leg press is currently at 120kg,it's fair to say that I may well be putting on mass which again throws the scales out.

Suppose we wont agree on how that diet is made up. All I can say is it works for me when i want to trim fat i reduce carbs and increase protein (vast over simplification - but thats the essence of what I do). If I want to lose weight I combine that with less overall.

For someone looking to lose weight initially,I don't think your method is apropriate. It's akin to bodybuilders eating enough to feed a small city in order to feed muscle growth then drinking water for 10days to cut the excess back to ripped muscle before a show.

My belief is that people should find their sweet spot for dietry intake and be successful with it before going further.

Will Nunez

For someone looking to lose weight initially,I don't think your method is apropriate. It's akin to bodybuilders eating enough to feed a small city in order to feed muscle growth then drinking water for 10days to cut the excess back to ripped muscle before a show.

Thats taking it to an extreme.

:roll:

t.m.h.n.e.t

Will Nunez wrote:

For someone looking to lose weight initially,I don't think your method is apropriate. It's akin to bodybuilders eating enough to feed a small city in order to feed muscle growth then drinking water for 10days to cut the excess back to ripped muscle before a show.

Thats taking it to an extreme.

:roll:

Pross

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

Harris Benedict is very much a recognised formula. Generic yes but it's a better guide to base your intake off than the totally unrealistic goals set by apps like myfitnesspal.

I'm pretty sure myfitnesspal uses the Harris Benedict formula. If not I must have been a complete fluke as when I didn't like the low daily calorie intake the app gave me and decided it must be wrong I checked using the Harris Bendict formula and got exactly the same result. As a 39 year old male, 6' 2" and 195 pounds doing a sedentary job my intake came out at 2346 kcals per day (BMR x 1.2) so to lose 2lb per week I have a measly allowance of 1346 kcals per day if I don't exercise which gives a weekly deficit of 7000 kcals.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Pross wrote:

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

Harris Benedict is very much a recognised formula. Generic yes but it's a better guide to base your intake off than the totally unrealistic goals set by apps like myfitnesspal.

I'm pretty sure myfitnesspal uses the Harris Benedict formula. If not I must have been a complete fluke as when I didn't like the low daily calorie intake the app gave me and decided it must be wrong I checked using the Harris Bendict formula and got exactly the same result. As a 39 year old male, 6' 2" and 195 pounds doing a sedentary job my intake came out at 2346 kcals per day (BMR x 1.2) so to lose 2lb per week I have a measly allowance of 1346 kcals per day if I don't exercise which gives a weekly deficit of 7000 kcals.

I've yet to discover what I need to do in MFP to get the numbers close to harris benedict. But of course,what do you do when you get there? You can select walking :30mins and MFP will give you a guess as to what it thinks you burned,but like HB it's not a precise science.

Neither base their calculations on muscle mass and neither base their calculations on the conditions you exercise in. The figures for a 1hr ride in -5 weather and 1hr on the turbo watching eastenders are going to be grossly different which will both skew your calorie intake for the day. Perhaps not massively but a little soon becomes a lot.

Will Nunez

I reckon ive lost 24 stone, since 1996!

21 stone of it calorie counting. Needless to say that was yoyoing between 16st and at my lightest 10.5 stone.

The bizarre thing is at 16 stone ! was def 30% in the chart youve posted. At 10.5 stone i was a thin equivemelent of 20%, no definition (exercise then was swimming and jogging). At 10.5 my BMI was mid healthy not underweight but to everyone else i look gaunt.

My last diet was 14st down to under 12st and that was using BF% or BFI as the guide. I think at 12stone 8 im on the border of overweight on BMI. Yet since Ive focused on BF% Im now between 14-11% (14 over christmas) and the chart reflects the appearance (may aim for 8% after looking at that ;-)) I did touch 12stone 8 over xmas which BMI suggests im tending towards overweight, but with aphysique akin to 12% on the above chart Id hardly say that was the case.

Im not saying BMI is bad but if people are cycling or exercising a lot if their BF% is low then they are not average and BMI will indicate that they are heavier than the norm. Surely it wouldnt that hard to factor in BF% to consider the difference between a couch potato and a gym monkey

ollyridesfirst

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

Losing fat = lost weight also

Sorry but this is incorrect....i don't want to be drawn into the debate you two seem to have struck up, but in my experience, it's not about weight loss, it's about body fat %. You can reduce body fat while training, and put muscle on and actually increase weight as has been stated that muscle mass is greater than fat mass...

My advice to the OP would be to see what the results are first from your GP. If everything is ok, get checked out by a nutritionist and have your measurements taken. Have a look at your body fat % and try to get this number down. If you maintain or put on a little weight but this number goes down then it's ok. You will have put muscle on and this will make you stronger and as has also been stated, will burn more calories during normal day to day activity (BMR).

If it is all about weight, then the best way i have found is to go a week and count calories.....try to maintain your weight as best you can and then average your calories out over the 7 days. If you are the same weight then take 500 off this calorie number each day and carry on. This will give a deficit of about 3500 calories per week, which is around about 1lb in body weight (depending on body composition/muscle gain etc)....

Will Nunez

:twisted: Too late Olly you are now drawn in

If everything is ok, get checked out by a nutritionist and have your measurements taken. Have a look at your body fat % and try to get this number down. If you maintain or put on a little weight but this number goes down then it's ok. You will have put muscle on and this will make you stronger and as has also been stated, will burn more calories during normal day to day activity (BMR).

I agree whole heartedly

t.m.h.n.e.t

OllyRidesFirst wrote:

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

Losing fat = lost weight also

Sorry but this is incorrect....i don't want to be drawn into the debate you two seem to have struck up, but in my experience, it's not about weight loss, it's about body fat %.

If your experience is underwear model with razor sharp abdominals then maybe.

You can reduce body fat while training, and put muscle on and actually increase weight as has been stated that muscle mass is greater than fat mass...

5lbs of fat weighs the same as 5lbs of muscle, the fat takes up much more space

My advice to the OP would be to see what the results are first from your GP. If everything is ok, get checked out by a nutritionist and have your measurements taken.

Agree

Have a look at your body fat % and try to get this number down. If you maintain or put on a little weight but this number goes down then it's ok. You will have put muscle on and this will make you stronger and as has also been stated, will burn more calories during normal day to day activity (BMR).

Rubbish

If it is all about weight, then the best way i have found is to go a week and count calories.....try to maintain your weight as best you can and then average your calories out over the 7 days. If you are the same weight then take 500 off this calorie number each day and carry on. This will give a deficit of about 3500 calories per week, which is around about 1lb in body weight (depending on body composition/muscle gain etc)....

It would take most people longer than a day to see any real change in weight. Given that weight fluctuates daily.

bratteleeaaa

For most people, initially weigh-loss water and / or muscle, you really need to use to prevent loss. How to say "use it or lose it" all cyclists, to take some upper body exercise in the form of more reasons. Became a necessary protein intake
and gaining your weight.

Pross

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

I've yet to discover what I need to do in MFP to get the numbers close to harris benedict. But of course,what do you do when you get there? You can select walking :30mins and MFP will give you a guess as to what it thinks you burned,but like HB it's not a precise science.

Neither base their calculations on muscle mass and neither base their calculations on the conditions you exercise in. The figures for a 1hr ride in -5 weather and 1hr on the turbo watching eastenders are going to be grossly different which will both skew your calorie intake for the day. Perhaps not massively but a little soon becomes a lot.

I guess I must just fall into that 'average' category where it works for me then. For calories used I wear my HRM on the bike and at the gym and use the figures I get back from those. I'm sure there are discrepancies and as you've said previously you can't just stick to it religiously (I have been around 50 to 100 calories over most days, up to 500 when I had a treat on Saturday but then with a long ride yesterday was nearly 500 under for the day even with a good food intake). It is early days for me but seems to be working, not necessarily on weight loss but clothes are feeling more comfortable and I think the exercise has helped in firming up my core as weakness there makes everything look worse!

gsvbagpuss

It's much more subtle that just calorie counting. I spent a long time tracking all my food intake using the Daily Burn Tracker and discovered I was averaging well under 2000 calories (500 too few for a an average male) but I was taking enough carbohydrates - hence why I wasn't tired or losing weight. Now, adjust that for more protein based calories and I'm dropping fat / gaining muscle.

So, get a proper nutrionist to help if you're worried - they will help

Will Nunez

+1. My experience too bagpuss

Pross

5.5lbs lost for me in the last 2 weeks, I was disappointed first week to lose only 1.5lbs but last week it has dropped off due in a large part to a significant increase in activity (either cycling or a 40 minute cardio session in the gym each day for the last 12 days except for 1) but I do think the MyFitnessPal app has been a big help just in monitoring my calorie intake. The last week I even attended a function with full 3 course meal (but only 2 glasses of wine) on Friday evening, had a Chinese takeaway and a pint on Saturday and ate one of my mother-in-law's teas on Sunday! What's more important is I am enjoying it too.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Pross wrote:

5.5lbs lost for me in the last 2 weeks, I was disappointed first week to lose only 1.5lbs but last week it has dropped off due in a large part to a significant increase in activity (either cycling or a 40 minute cardio session in the gym each day for the last 12 days except for 1) but I do think the MyFitnessPal app has been a big help just in monitoring my calorie intake. The last week I even attended a function with full 3 course meal (but only 2 glasses of wine) on Friday evening, had a Chinese takeaway and a pint on Saturday and ate one of my mother-in-law's teas on Sunday! What's more important is I am enjoying it too.

Happy days

pierrevelo20

I tend to use this to work out how many calories i should be eating every day instead of simple say 2000cals every day irrelevant of anything else.
calore intake = weight (in lbs) x 15 + [10(men) or 8(women) for every minute of cycling done in the day]

If you want to drop weight i simply knock 500 calories off (to lose 1lb per week)

Of those calories 60-65% should be carbs.

Pierre.

Pross

pierrevelo20 wrote:

I tend to use this to work out how many calories i should be eating every day instead of simple say 2000cals every day irrelevant of anything else.
calore intake = weight (in lbs) x 15 + [10(men) or 8(women) for every minute of cycling done in the day]

If you want to drop weight i simply knock 500 calories off (to lose 1lb per week)

Of those calories 60-65% should be carbs.

Pierre.

Surely that doesn't take into account key factors like whether you have a sedentary job or not? According to that I can consume nearly 2900 calories a day without exercise and not gain weight. I'd love to believe it but unfortunately that is the reason my weight hit the starting level I was at. BMR might not be 100% accurate for everyone but it would seem a more scientific basis than the above?