Power Output, Max heart rate and then....

bobgfish

Went and got my power measured today along with Maxheart rate etc.

So the upshot it it's not to bad and I'm well trained. Weight is not an issue and better than average with lungs, weight and power than your average person.

I guess the querstion is now what do I do? Continue training the same I have been, add volume? and/or add more structure. First race is very early May. First Sportive for the year is late March.

Going to reread Joe Friels book as a starter...

ric/rstsport

Did the person testing you not give you some ideas?

It's going to be fairly difficult from the info you've given to give you some ideas on training... Do you climb well? Can you sprint? What about TTing? How's your endurance? Etc?

Also, how much time do you have to train? What level are you? What training have you previously done...

If you're unsure what to do, consider coaching. Feel free to give our group a shout.

Ric

okgo

Where do you do such a test? I'd be interested to see where I'm at...

glasgowbhoy

okgo wrote:

I'd be interested to see where I'm at...

You're eating cans of tuna and doing well in winter circuit racing. Just saved you a visit and probably a few bob.

jibberjim

okgo, the club organises it every now and then, costs about 80 quid. Personally I don't think it's worth it - hiring a powertap wheel for 3 months which will cost much the same will give you more much more data.

A max test really doesn't give you much actionable info. (It might give you more if you worked out indoors, but for me it told me my power at VO2max was around my then pretty well demonstrated ~12minute power 4 weeks later, so either my indoor power production was miles down on my outdoor, or I'm a freak) The lactate levels don't tell you anything that Percieved effort would've told you anyway.

So I don't think it's worth the money. Kingston Uni sports department are also often looking for volunteers for tests, and will provide you with most of the data in return for being a volunteer too, so just wait until one of those comes up.

ric/rstsport

okgo wrote:

Where do you do such a test? I'd be interested to see where I'm at...

depending on the test protocol used, we find the tests pretty useful. If your MAP (maximal aerobic power) is measured using a 25 W/min incremental rate (and you use calibrated power meter) we find the info useful. we also do perform these tests as well. And of course national squads such as Australia, GB, etc use similar MAP tests (not exactly the same increment rate as the one i've just mentioned - which we use with non-elite male riders).

If you also have data from a TT we find that extremely useful to have in conjunction with the MAP test.

Ric

bobgfish

I went and got it tested purely becuase I could and more importantly to use as a baseline. Any improvements should hopefully show if I get another done.

I'm set for a 9 day MTB stage race in May. It involves up to 150Km a day with 4000metres cllimbing a day. This will be my first race in 20 years. I don't aim to win but would like to put in a good showing. If I'm in the top ten that would be great but I won't be dissapointed to be in the top half of the field. I've got quite a few sportives on throughout the year and just want to be comfortable with them. The race is my only real target for the year.

Using the results from the test is enough to tell me that I'm not training hard enough but also shows me that I'm in a fairly comfortable place. My training so far is fairly unstructured and consists of to work and back (and Sunday) and I've been averaging 1000Km a month.

The aim was to raise duration over the next few months with some harder interval training towards March for some speed. I guess the dielema I have is the results showed I wasn't to bad but I'm not yet sure what I'm capable off. How do I train to improve when I'm not sure what the ceiling is? How do I know when either intensity is not hard enough or too hard? How do I know I have done enough duration to cope with 9 days racing and be able to recover. I do understand the importance of rest and recovery.

In regards to training I can afford maybe 15-20 hours per week. I used to be a good sprinter but climbing has improved hugely and not many people will pass me on a hill these days. I am based in the Netherlands so have no hills to speak of for training purposes (100 metres at 1% don't count). Not sure how you measure endurance but am riding 5-6 hours on a Sunday with some 2-3 hours runs midweek as well as the hour blast to work each way some days.

Thanks

shockedsoshocked

jibberjim wrote:

A max test really doesn't give you much actionable info.

Well it does, hence why elite athletes are tested regularly.

jibberjim

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

A max test really doesn't give you much actionable info.

Well it does, hence why elite athletes are tested regularly.

How do you know that? Do they not do it because it's a way to measure progress/fitness - that doesn't mean it provides actionable information, just that it provides information on where you are. There's nothing you can do with the data provided.

So what actionable info does it provide?

Pseudonym

'actionable' in the sense that if the test shows no progress, it means you have to train harder...

Tom Dean

jibberjim wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

A max test really doesn't give you much actionable info.

Well it does, hence why elite athletes are tested regularly.

How do you know that? Do they not do it because it's a way to measure progress/fitness - that doesn't mean it provides actionable information, just that it provides information on where you are. There's nothing you can do with the data provided.

So what actionable info does it provide?

Surely you need to know 'where you are' / have some measure of your fitness in order to set training levels?

jibberjim

Tom Dean wrote:

Surely you need to know 'where you are' / have some measure of your fitness in order to set training levels?

Sure, but there are lots of cheaper routes to doing that than an expensive test that will tell you where you are on an indoor trainer that you won't ever use otherwise. Remember I didn't say it provided nothing, just that it's not worth spending money on. Although "training levels" linked to an indoor ramp test would not be something I'd agree with, but that's an entirely seperate argument.

ric/rstsport

jibberjim wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

Surely you need to know 'where you are' / have some measure of your fitness in order to set training levels?

Sure, but there are lots of cheaper routes to doing that than an expensive test that will tell you where you are on an indoor trainer that you won't ever use otherwise. Remember I didn't say it provided nothing, just that it's not worth spending money on. Although "training levels" linked to an indoor ramp test would not be something I'd agree with, but that's an entirely seperate argument.

i've yet to find anyone who can't set training levels from an indoor incremental test*. granted i work with a limited number of people but i've been testing like that and coaching people based on that test since 1995.

*from memory i've had 3 or 4 people who originally (self) tested low in a MAP test indoors (i.e. the zones weren't suitable based on the MAP test). So i devised an outdoor MAP test and they scored slightly higher. Of those 3 or 4 i then personally tested them 2 or 3 of them and with "strong verbal encouragement" they all tested at the outdoor level. There was one person i didn't test due to them living on another continent.

Alex_Simmons/RST

I conducted 36 MAP tests last week. Of those, only one wasn't a good indicator of the rider's true fitness and would not have made a good baseline for setting of training levels. That became obvious when other data was taken into account.

Test data should not be considered in isolation but rather within the context of all available data on a rider (be it other power data, training history, health status etc etc). When such information suggests one adjust training levels, then that's what you do.

It is also common to perform more than one type of performance test so that you attain a better picture of the rider's fitness.

MAP tests can be done on a home trainer with a power meter, so if you already have those, then there is no additional expense involved.

Some people don't have ready access to a suitable MAP test set up, so there are alternative tests that are more suited to some circumstances.

ric/rstsport

did you lose your voice while strongly encouraging people to reach their MAP ;-)?

bobgfish

So...Now that we know some poeple thinks it's pointless..And others thinks it's a good idea....Can we get back on track...

Ideas on what type of training I should continue with given the above?

jibberjim

Ric / Alex - Perhaps I read too much into the etc. as I didn't believe this was just a MAP test, but included lactate VO2max etc (the presence of talking about lungs etc. suggests that, and it was those things - knowing your vo2max is X and your power at 4mmol is Y etc. is the stuff that isn't actionable).

I'll agree the usefulness of a MAP test over any other sort of consistent test is purely down to personal preference. And there's no way I'll come anywhere close however much verbal encouragement you give me on an indoor test (mind you I do very badly with verbal encouragement full stop, but other forms of motivation that do work don't make a difference.) And this ability to test was exactly why I suggested to OKGO he spent his money on a powertap rental instead to allow him to do that testing - which may include a MAP test, in fact he may well in his case as he strikes me as the sort of nutter who might enjoy it.

bobgfish. As I said, there's no real information, I'm sure Ric and Alex would be glad to coach you (and even as I disagree with them on this I wouldn't say that would be a bad idea at all!) and I doubt they'll disagree that your main focus right now would be to carry on increasing your threshold power. So workouts which do that (essentially anything longer than a few minutes of working hard without rest. I like riding hard for an hour, getting the a couple of rests from junctions, a structured version of that is of course the famous 2x20, but it's not too important, everything longer than 15 minutes with the interval being around your 60minute power is pretty much the same, whatever suits your mind.

You can also do shorter intervals - 5-7 minute hills say at close to all out effort with reasonable rests in between. Or shorter intervals with shorter rests. But don't go chasing the 30 second or 1 minute efforts with long recoveries, they can wait until nearer the race season.

Personally, if I wanted to race well in May, I'd race now, not sure the point of waiting?

Tom Dean

To do well in your stage race I would suggest you would need to have been getting a lot more volume in than you have been. Your ability to do big distance days back to back will be the key, sprinting & high intensity probably won't make much difference.

I would concentrate on gradually building up the hours on the bike. Make sure to get your nutrition and recovery spot on.

Prepare early for next year's race and you will get closer to your potential!

dru

bobgfish wrote:

So...Now that we know some poeple thinks it's pointless..And others thinks it's a good idea....Can we get back on track...

Ideas on what type of training I should continue with given the above?

Sticking my head-up to get shot at....

Is'nt is a case that we can not give you an idea as we don't know your results and also how you have resonded to your training (and the type of training so far)

For instance I've recently started to be coached and at the beginning of December went and did a MAP/ramp test as mentioned above and also an initial CP20 test giving results of 226W

The coach has then given me a program to follow for the next 4 weeks to help change those results.

I've followed the coaching to the letter and ridden a mixture of road and track sessions, along with several intervals of the turbo trainer. All road and turbo work has been done with a powertap.

Last week saw the last of the first months worth of coaching. I did another CP20 test (on the same turbo, with the same powertap and wheel/tyre and pressure combination.

I scored a better 257W result. So I've jumped up 30W in the month (I've also lost a few kg in the same time) so looks like I'm responding well to the initial coaching.

I'm having another MAP/ramp test done tommorrow to again see if there are any changes. I don't imagine that my max heart rate will have changed, but the testing range should at least be able to compare with my curve from last months to see if my threshold levels are changing etc as a result of the work i've been doing.


Maybe you need to do something similar, ie train for a month, then retest to see how you are responding and how your body is changing and adapting???

Alex_Simmons/RST

jibberjim wrote:

Ric / Alex - Perhaps I read too much into the etc. as I didn't believe this was just a MAP test, but included lactate VO2max etc (the presence of talking about lungs etc. suggests that, and it was those things - knowing your vo2max is X and your power at 4mmol is Y etc. is the stuff that isn't actionable).

That's how I read it and I agree. When using a power meter, lab tests become largely redundant. And even if you don't have a PM and are training with say a HRM for a guide, then one still doesn't need a lab to set training levels.

There are occasions where having the extra lab data may be useful.

Main issue with BL / VO2 testing for setting training levels is we don't ride around with a BL meter or gas mask.

jibberjim wrote:

I'll agree the usefulness of a MAP test over any other sort of consistent test is purely down to personal preference. And there's no way I'll come anywhere close however much verbal encouragement you give me on an indoor test (mind you I do very badly with verbal encouragement full stop, but other forms of motivation that do work don't make a difference.) And this ability to test was exactly why I suggested to OKGO he spent his money on a powertap rental instead to allow him to do that testing - which may include a MAP test, in fact he may well in his case as he strikes me as the sort of nutter who might enjoy it.

There are some clients who pester me for when they are going to get to do their next MAP test. I'd say 5-10% of people under perform in MAP testing (compared to everyone who thinks they could have gone on longer), but then that's no different to those that under perform doing time trial tests because they pace poorly.

It's not perfect, but it's very controllable and in the case of how I do them (on an ergo which automatically controls the resistance) the variable of execution and pacing is removed from the equation. As for motivation, everyone responds differently to and requires different forms of motivation. When you do a lot of tests you get used to reading people and what works. Army lads are fun. Just keep yelling

I agree a PM and some straightforward timed tests for max sustainable power is very helpful.

jibberjim wrote:

bobgfish. As I said, there's no real information, I'm sure Ric and Alex would be glad to coach you (and even as I disagree with them on this I wouldn't say that would be a bad idea at all!) and I doubt they'll disagree that your main focus right now would be to carry on increasing your threshold power. So workouts which do that (essentially anything longer than a few minutes of working hard without rest. I like riding hard for an hour, getting the a couple of rests from junctions, a structured version of that is of course the famous 2x20, but it's not too important, everything longer than 15 minutes with the interval being around your 60minute power is pretty much the same, whatever suits your mind.

You can also do shorter intervals - 5-7 minute hills say at close to all out effort with reasonable rests in between. Or shorter intervals with shorter rests. But don't go chasing the 30 second or 1 minute efforts with long recoveries, they can wait until nearer the race season.

Personally, if I wanted to race well in May, I'd race now, not sure the point of waiting?

Agreed.

Very hard to give anything other than general training advice when one doesn't really know the specifics of an individual.

1. progressive overload, be consistent and frequent with training, but don't try to do too much too quickly
2. work to improve threshold power, which means a variety of training above recovery levels
3. consider what is specific to your goal events and make sure training covers that
4. keep it enjoyable
5. a good coach can help get it right, allowing you to focus on execution. Coaching also has other benefits for performance (it's not just about the training)

bobgfish

Thanks for your comments. Some good input and ideas. I guess what has left me a little confused is the fact that when tested they said I was a lot doing a lot right and had good results and I'm very fit. This is me without much of a clue, who just enjoys riding my bike. When I asked regarding training for 3 months and if they felt it would improve me in three months there was a bit of a pause ad a bit of a shrug before saying it would help but by how much is uncertain and it may not be much differnt to what I do now.. I know two guys who train with the same place and both there advice was to not sign up. I'll see them this weekend on Sunday ride to discuss further. I guess the big thing I lack is a structured program and also the confidence to believe in what I'm doing is right.

I'm workng mainly on my endurance but hard to squeeze in 4 hour rides in the dark and hold down a job. The other part of it is I'm not sure how much endurance is required having never done 9 days of racing with six hours off riding at least each each day. I'll work a lot more on the intervals closer to the race. I know the speed will come. I'm not very good on the above threshold catergory at the moment but plan to address that with a mate. 20 years ago it seemed easy but certainly not anymore.

To sum it up my general plan without specifics is
Jan = Endurance and a bit of weight loss
Feb = much more of the same with six hour plus on Sat and Sun
Mar = Less endurance and bigger foucs on power and intervals
Apr = All the European Classics with intervals during week
May = taper till 7th and start racing on 9th.

Lastly going to write a full plan this weekend with Joe Friels book as a guide. The bit that gets me is how much is enough. How many hours? I do know that the more hours I put in the better my body responds. Not found the cliff yet.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Working with a coach can help remove the confusion.

jgsi

bobgfish wrote:

Thanks for your comments. Some good input and ideas. I guess what has left me a little confused is the fact that when tested they said I was a lot doing a lot right and had good results and I'm very fit. This is me without much of a clue, who just enjoys riding my bike. When I asked regarding training for 3 months and if they felt it would improve me in three months there was a bit of a pause ad a bit of a shrug before saying it would help but by how much is uncertain and it may not be much differnt to what I do now.. I know two guys who train with the same place and both there advice was to not sign up. I'll see them this weekend on Sunday ride to discuss further. I guess the big thing I lack is a structured program and also the confidence to believe in what I'm doing is right.

I'm workng mainly on my endurance but hard to squeeze in 4 hour rides in the dark and hold down a job. The other part of it is I'm not sure how much endurance is required having never done 9 days of racing with six hours off riding at least each each day. I'll work a lot more on the intervals closer to the race. I know the speed will come. I'm not very good on the above threshold catergory at the moment but plan to address that with a mate. 20 years ago it seemed easy but certainly not anymore.

To sum it up my general plan without specifics is
Jan = Endurance and a bit of weight loss
Feb = much more of the same with six hour plus on Sat and Sun
Mar = Less endurance and bigger foucs on power and intervals
Apr = All the European Classics with intervals during week
May = taper till 7th and start racing on 9th.

Lastly going to write a full plan this weekend with Joe Friels book as a guide. The bit that gets me is how much is enough. How many hours? I do know that the more hours I put in the better my body responds. Not found the cliff yet.

Not racing until May? A lot of the people you may be up against with have started racing in March, so you will be down almost 2 months of legs that will have had hard riding.
I'm late at the 1st of April, but intend to emulate race pace from mid Feb in reliability rides.