Ribble Stealth vs DeRosa 838, the same or urban myth?
Comments
-
neeb wrote:But there's no doubt that you can get identical looking frames made with different grades of carbon, some manufacturers even sell them in their own ranges, e.g. the Scott Foil and Addict HMX and HMF frame versions are effectively indistinguishable except by weight.
The same goes for the standard Cannondale Supersix V the more expensive Hi-Mod version, where 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the way they ride.
For what it's worth, I think De Rosa are talking out of their bottom when they say their open mould frames are made of higher grade carbon fibre than others.0 -
Why deny the obvious it does there credability no good. The Gotobike frame is the same frame. I know someone riding it.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
-
mallott wrote:http://www.xpa-cycling.com/products_data.php?htm=18.html&key=2
Here's the xpace 838 let's play spot the difference, cable routing, seatpost, front mech mount, rear dropout. Other than that they look similar. It's blatantly not exactly the same.
I cant comment on the ribble, but it's a choice you make, a company with a proud heritage, years of investment and r and d, over a shop with not the greatest customer service reputation and none of the above.
Who will bother to push technology in cycling forward if you just buy the cheap ripoffs? Shall we leave that to ribble and the Chinese?
The Ribble frame is not some sort of knock off or copy, it is the same frame with a different paint job and that's all there is to it. Both now have identical internal cable routing too, your above link is the older version of the frame.
The likelyhood of De Rosa having any input in designing this frame is slim.0 -
DeRosa have been selling a number of Chinese-built carbon frames for years - they are a small company with limited production capacity.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
-
the only things that make stuff different is Marketing Bull Sh**.
Most of the frames we see today from smaller companies come from the same manufacturers and quite a lot are off the shelf or contracted frames. Some are modified off the shelf frames put forward by the Taiwanese/Chinese firms that can have exclusive rights over.
Cant believe why some people are so surprised.
Having shipped products from China myself, its surprising how little stuff costs and how good a quality you can find. Much is made in the same factories just ready for brand logos to be printed on - The same will go for bike frames and components.
Its the end consumer who then falls for the massive mark-up and marketing ploys. Like a recent Canyon thread here where someone was asking if a slightly lighter slightly higher spec bike was worth the £1600 more.... of course it isn't "worth" £1600 more.0 -
The Airstreeem Race Air (Triple E) looks like it is the same frame as well. Saw one of these at the NEC show and thought it looked nice but then noticed it has the identical geometry to the Ribble R872. I think that this frame is even more expensive than the De Rosa version, at least De Rosa has a bit of history!0
-
The Flagship Ribble HF83 Frame is actually a Dedacciai Strada Gladiatore.0
-
wotnoshoeseh wrote:Rolf F wrote:mallott wrote:I cant comment on the ribble, but it's a choice you make, a company with a proud heritage, years of investment and r and d, over a shop with not the greatest customer service reputation and none of the above.
You don't know much about Ribble do you.........
Which one is which????
Quite!spanner239 wrote:The Airstreeem Race Air (Triple E) looks like it is the same frame as well. Saw one of these at the NEC show and thought it looked nice but then noticed it has the identical geometry to the Ribble R872. I think that this frame is even more expensive than the De Rosa version, at least De Rosa has a bit of history!
Why do you think that Ribble has no history? Eg, some folk might consider this a bit of history worth a mention....
Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:Why do you think that Ribble has no history? Eg, some folk might consider this a bit of history worth a mention...
Wasn't talking about Ribble, I have a lot of time for them and order stuff from them regularly. The Ribble R872 looks like an excellent frame at a great price, I may even be in the market for one in the future!0 -
I have a Ribble 872 and was keen to see the De Rosa 838 at the NEC to see if they are identical. The front triangle is certainly very similar but the rear chainstays are totally different. The De Rosa's are straight and the 872 have a distinct curve to them.0
-
The chain stays on the De Rosa R838 are certainly curved, are you sure it wasn't the R848 you were comparing to?0
-
There was a guy on these forums that did work for xpace and confirmed they used the same mould - though didn't say whether layups were different.
One thing about the availability of direct Chinese imports from the open frame design - and smaller companies buying the same design too: There are lots of frame from these different companies that are identical to the R838 and Ribble Stealth (or near identical but with an integrated seatpost) but they are all the older design with the external cable bosses (when the R872 was called the Steath). It seems that the latest R838/R872 frames with the internal cabling are only available from De Rosa and Ribble.
I guess that with the success of the two models, they bought out the rights to use the new mould exclusively.0 -
Not so goose I can buy the latest R838 with internal routing from a chinese supplier. It is the real thing too as far as I can tell.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
-
thecycleclinic wrote:Not so goose I can buy the latest R838 with internal routing from a chinese supplier. It is the real thing too as far as I can tell.
Do you have a link - I haven't seen the more recent frames online?
Cheers0 -
No link I have a spreadsheet price list from the supplier.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
-
I have made enquiries with a friend who works at a very well regarded De Rosa stocking bike shop. He told me the frames are the same as they are both made by xpace, however, the carbon is different between the two frames for each manafacturer with the De Ross being much stiffer.0
-
Dizeee wrote:I have made enquiries with a friend who works at a very well regarded De Rosa stocking bike shop. He told me the frames are the same as they are both made by xpace, however, the carbon is different between the two frames for each manafacturer with the De Ross being much stiffer.PAK-MAN wrote:I recently asked this very question of the UK De Rosa importer. Recognising that there might be a element of "well he would say that wouldn't he", his view was that the mould was very similar but that the carbon fibre was different (with the De Rosa being of a better grade).
I'm caught in a trap
I can't walk out
Because I
you too much baybeeeeeeeee!
This all seems so very familiar.......
Faster than a tent.......0 -
Do you know what, I actually don't care much about this debate any more. I have a de rosa, I may have paid more for it than a comparable ribble (which may or may not be the same frame) but I absolutely love it. For me, cycling is heart not head and, on that basis, de rosa wins (for me) every time. By the way, not dissing the ribble, am sure it's a great bike, but when comparing the two, to me it comes second by some margin.0
-
The paint job on the DeRosa is stunning and certainly worth a premium, in my opinion, but not the premium that customers pay. That is almost all markup.
The frames are identical apart from paint and I daresay the Ribble is marginally lighter as a result.
It goes against all business logic that Xpace would either make to order separately or stock separately two different qualities of lay-up/carbon from their one mold, just so that customer a or b can claim a small (and unsubstantiated) marketing USP compared to the other; it's nonsense in the truest meaning of the word.0 -
Bordersroadie wrote:It goes against all business logic that Xpace would either make to order separately or stock separately two different qualities of lay-up/carbon from their one mold, just so that customer a or b can claim a small (and unsubstantiated) marketing USP compared to the other; it's nonsense in the truest meaning of the word.
Particularly when the Italians would inevitably be quite happy to claim that one product is different from another when it actually isn't anyway.
The De Rosa does have a nice paintjob but it probably isn't worth £700 or so. One bloke on here bought a De Rosa but didn't like the paintjob so he had it stripped; he'll have a hard time convincing anyone he didn't just put some De Rosa logos on a Ribble........ Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:Bordersroadie wrote:It goes against all business logic that Xpace would either make to order separately or stock separately two different qualities of lay-up/carbon from their one mold, just so that customer a or b can claim a small (and unsubstantiated) marketing USP compared to the other; it's nonsense in the truest meaning of the word.
Particularly when the Italians would inevitably be quite happy to claim that one product is different from another when it actually isn't anyway.
The De Rosa does have a nice paintjob but it probably isn't worth £700 or so. One bloke on here bought a De Rosa but didn't like the paintjob so he had it stripped; he'll have a hard time convincing anyone he didn't just put some De Rosa logos on a Ribble........
So, with this in mind would the 872 be a contender for best value bike currently available? Mine is great and a massive step up from the Giant I was riding.0 -
Camcycle1974 wrote:So, with this in mind would the 872 be a contender for best value bike currently available? Mine is great and a massive step up from the Giant I was riding.
De Rosa selling the same frame with a hefty markup doesn't make the Ribble any better value in absolute terms than if it wasn't available as a De Rosa! All it does tell you is that you can get the same mechanical riding experience from Ribble for much less money - emotionally it might be less clear cut though I can't see how there is more emotion to an Italian branded generic Taiwanese frame than an Anglo Italian (eg my Dedaccai branded Ribble) branded generic Taiwanese frame. That doesn't for example, make it better value than a Canyon.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:Camcycle1974 wrote:So, with this in mind would the 872 be a contender for best value bike currently available? Mine is great and a massive step up from the Giant I was riding.
De Rosa selling the same frame with a hefty markup doesn't make the Ribble any better value in absolute terms than if it wasn't available as a De Rosa! All it does tell you is that you can get the same mechanical riding experience from Ribble for much less money - emotionally it might be less clear cut though I can't see how there is more emotion to an Italian branded generic Taiwanese frame than an Anglo Italian (eg my Dedaccai branded Ribble) branded generic Taiwanese frame. That doesn't for example, make it better value than a Canyon.
Very true Rolf. The same principle goes for those riding a lot of Colnagos who turn their noses up at Giant despite the fact that Giant manufacture on their behalf. Canyon prices seem to be rising of late which coupled to their distribution problems would put me off buying one. It just annoys me when people look down on Ribble as "cheap, generic ****"0 -
Camcycle1974 wrote:Rolf F wrote:Camcycle1974 wrote:So, with this in mind would the 872 be a contender for best value bike currently available? Mine is great and a massive step up from the Giant I was riding.
De Rosa selling the same frame with a hefty markup doesn't make the Ribble any better value in absolute terms than if it wasn't available as a De Rosa! All it does tell you is that you can get the same mechanical riding experience from Ribble for much less money - emotionally it might be less clear cut though I can't see how there is more emotion to an Italian branded generic Taiwanese frame than an Anglo Italian (eg my Dedaccai branded Ribble) branded generic Taiwanese frame. That doesn't for example, make it better value than a Canyon.
Very true Rolf. The same principle goes for those riding a lot of Colnagos who turn their noses up at Giant despite the fact that Giant manufacture on their behalf. Canyon prices seem to be rising of late which coupled to their distribution problems would put me off buying one. It just annoys me when people look down on Ribble as "cheap, generic ****"
I think it's all very confusing for customers, especially if you delve into the details. I've visited factories that produce everything from Cannondale to Decathlon. Doesn't mean they are the same. Depends what you think you're paying for.0 -
inseine wrote:Depends what you think you're paying for.
This is it isn't it. We don't really know any facts. To be fair, the De Rosa might use a different layup. However, if I was De Rosa and investing extra money for 'better cf' (whatever that might be...) I would also invest a bit more in making the shape of the frame look different because I would know that ultimately, my product would be judged more for looking different to a generic frame than actually being different to the generic frame.
How much extra would it cost to develop a mildly different frame design that everyone can see isn't the same as a Ribble or PX equivalent I wonder?Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:inseine wrote:Depends what you think you're paying for.
This is it isn't it. We don't really know any facts. To be fair, the De Rosa might use a different layup. However, if I was De Rosa and investing extra money for 'better cf' (whatever that might be...) I would also invest a bit more in making the shape of the frame look different because I would know that ultimately, my product would be judged more for looking different to a generic frame than actually being different to the generic frame.
How much extra would it cost to develop a mildly different frame design that everyone can see isn't the same as a Ribble or PX equivalent I wonder?
About $10k per size, so $50k in the case of this frame.0 -
inseine wrote:Rolf F wrote:inseine wrote:Depends what you think you're paying for.
This is it isn't it. We don't really know any facts. To be fair, the De Rosa might use a different layup. However, if I was De Rosa and investing extra money for 'better cf' (whatever that might be...) I would also invest a bit more in making the shape of the frame look different because I would know that ultimately, my product would be judged more for looking different to a generic frame than actually being different to the generic frame.
How much extra would it cost to develop a mildly different frame design that everyone can see isn't the same as a Ribble or PX equivalent I wonder?
About $10k per size, so $50k in the case of this frame.
So, if the De Rosa markup over Ribble was £500 a frame (I think it is at least that), then £35k or so, then it costs them the extra profit over Ribble prices on 70 or so frames.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:inseine wrote:Rolf F wrote:inseine wrote:Depends what you think you're paying for.
This is it isn't it. We don't really know any facts. To be fair, the De Rosa might use a different layup. However, if I was De Rosa and investing extra money for 'better cf' (whatever that might be...) I would also invest a bit more in making the shape of the frame look different because I would know that ultimately, my product would be judged more for looking different to a generic frame than actually being different to the generic frame.
How much extra would it cost to develop a mildly different frame design that everyone can see isn't the same as a Ribble or PX equivalent I wonder?
About $10k per size, so $50k in the case of this frame.
So, if the De Rosa markup over Ribble was £500 a frame (I think it is at least that), then £35k or so, then it costs them the extra profit over Ribble prices on 70 or so frames.
They'd be looking to recoupe triple their investment, so 200 or so extra sales would make it worthwhile.0 -
Rolf F wrote:inseine wrote:Depends what you think you're paying for.
This is it isn't it. We don't really know any facts. To be fair, the De Rosa might use a different layup. However, if I was De Rosa and investing extra money for 'better cf' (whatever that might be...) I would also invest a bit more in making the shape of the frame look different because I would know that ultimately, my product would be judged more for looking different to a generic frame than actually being different to the generic frame.
I totally agree.0 -
Rolf F wrote:Dizeee wrote:I have made enquiries with a friend who works at a very well regarded De Rosa stocking bike shop. He told me the frames are the same as they are both made by xpace, however, the carbon is different between the two frames for each manafacturer with the De Ross being much stiffer.PAK-MAN wrote:I recently asked this very question of the UK De Rosa importer. Recognising that there might be a element of "well he would say that wouldn't he", his view was that the mould was very similar but that the carbon fibre was different (with the De Rosa being of a better grade).
I'm caught in a trap
I can't walk out
Because I you too much baybeeeeeeeee!
This all seems so very familiar.......
lol.
Not really. My Merak (nothing to do with this thread) has transported me to the most epic of cycling plateaus.
I only ask on here out of intrigue. There is still no evidence, it's all inconclusive. Show me and tell me why, in a legitimate form, how De Rosa are apparently ripping everyone off, and deceiving them, and I will concur. Problem is, nobody can. I don't know the answer either.0
