Diane Abbott. Is she racist?

rick_chasey

lost_in_thought wrote:

Silly thing to say, and generalizations are inherently prejudiced, much as people do make them. If you had fswapped the 'white' for 'black' Rick would probably have exploded and disgraced himself at work. Again.

Ignoring you bizarre bit at the end, it's different if you'd swapped white for black, for sure, given the cultural, historical, and social context.

DonDaddyD

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Man fark this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may not have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

You agree that "white people like to divide and rule"?

I believe that there are some white people and there are still some social mechanisms (be it language, opinions, institutions) present in society that perpetuate the very notion of divide & conquer. Yes.

Not all but some.

DonDaddyD

Rick Chasey wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Silly thing to say, and generalizations are inherently prejudiced, much as people do make them. If you had fswapped the 'white' for 'black' Rick would probably have exploded and disgraced himself at work. Again.

Ignoring you bizarre bit at the end, it's different if you'd swapped white for black, for sure, given the cultural, historical, and social context.

No it's not.

"Black people love playing 'divide and conquer'. We should not play their game." It reads like both a black person (or someone from 'Urban London') wrote it and something I already would expect to read in the Daily mail.

I don't think the sentiment would be different though.

In the context that this was being discussed - that of language "Black community leaders" I think it's pretty spot on. How she wrote it, poor form.

Ben6899

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Man fark this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may not have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

You agree that "white people like to divide and rule"?

I believe that there are some white people and there are still some social mechanisms (be it language, opinions, institutions) present in society that perpetuate the very notion of divide & conquer. Yes.

Not all but some.

I thought so.

So it's totally inappropriate to say "white people like to divide and rule", right? And you can understand why I take offence, right?

It's on a par with if I was quoted saying "black people like to carry guns". I would be slated and rightly so.

tailwindhome

Will the police be investigating?

DonDaddyD

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Man fark this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may not have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

You agree that "white people like to divide and rule"?

I believe that there are some white people and there are still some social mechanisms (be it language, opinions, institutions) present in society that perpetuate the very notion of divide & conquer. Yes.

Not all but some.

I thought so.

So it's totally inappropriate to say "white people like to divide and rule", right? And you can understand why I take offence, right?

It's on a par with if I was quoted saying "black people like to carry guns". I would be slated and rightly so.

I wouldn't be as pedantic as to assume that you meant all. However, as a politician she should know better.

I'll tell you now that of the black people I've spoken to. They all agree with the sentiment that there is an element of divide and conquer when the media cite the "The Black Community" as though it's an actual seperate thing. However all equally agree that she shouldn't have said it that way. Interestingly pretty much most think she simply forgot herself as it reads like something said behind closed doors - 'a chat amongst ourselves...' as it were...

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Man fark this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may not have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

You agree that "white people like to divide and rule"?

I believe that there are some white people and there are still some social mechanisms (be it language, opinions, institutions) present in society that perpetuate the very notion of divide & conquer. Yes.

Not all but some.

That's a fairly critical qualifier isn't it? And one that Abbott didn't use herself. I'm sure I can find examples of situations where non-white people have 'liked to divide and rule' as well. There's a fair bit of divide and rule going on in, say, Tibet.

Ben6899

DonDaddyD wrote:

Interestingly pretty much most think she simply forgot herself as it reads like something said behind closed doors - 'a chat amongst ourselves...' as it were...

... which makes it okay, I suppose.

SimonAH

For fcuks sake.

The two guys jailed for the Lawrence killings are racists.

We need a new term - or stop using this one when hate is not being preached.

Labelling anyone who makes a generalistic comment about (however loosely grouped) a section of people identified by colour, race, religion etc a racist is bloody stupid unless it is a hateful one.

spen666

SimonAH wrote:

For fcuks sake.

The two guys jailed for the Lawrence killings are racists.

We need a new term - or stop using this one when hate is not being preached.

Labelling anyone who makes a generalistic comment about (however loosely grouped) a section of people identified by colour, race, religion etc a racist is bloody stupid unless it is a hateful one.

Racism and ppreaching hate are different things.

It is possible to have one without the other

DonDaddyD

In 'black colloquial speak' "some" isn't a necessarily needed qualifier. It's always an accepted assumption that there is no all unless she meant all, in which if she did then she'd have qualified it with "all ah uno"* or a phrase to that effect.

I say that because I think she was actually speaking from a more informal mindset.

*all ah uno is bascially saying "you all"

DonDaddyD

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Interestingly pretty much most think she simply forgot herself as it reads like something said behind closed doors - 'a chat amongst ourselves...' as it were...

... which makes it okay, I suppose.

I never said it was OK. I said I agreed with what she was saying. I never once said I agreed with the way she said it.

Ben6899

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Interestingly pretty much most think she simply forgot herself as it reads like something said behind closed doors - 'a chat amongst ourselves...' as it were...

... which makes it okay, I suppose.

I never said it was OK. I said I agreed with what she was saying. I never once said I agreed with the way she said it.

I never said you did say it was OK.

Paulie W

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'll tell you now that of the black people I've spoken to. They all agree with the sentiment that there is an element of divide and conquer when the media cite the "The Black Community" as though it's an actual seperate thing. However all equally agree that she shouldn't have said it that way. Interestingly pretty much most think she simply forgot herself as it reads like something said behind closed doors - 'a chat amongst ourselves...' as it were...

OK, one more try. DDD, my reading is that Diane Abbott siad that rejecting the idea of a black community is playing into the hands of those who would divide and conquer - you seem to be saying the exact opposite?!

EKE_38BPM

DonDaddyD wrote:

In 'black colloquial speak' "some" isn't a necessarily needed qualifier. It's always an accepted assumption that there is no all unless she meant all, in which if she did then she'd have qualified it with "all ah uno"* or a phrase to that effect.

I say that because I think she was actually speaking from a more informal mindset.

*all ah uno is bascially saying "you all"

I would love to hear LondonLivvy or LiT say 'all ah uno', 'a wha de raas', 'bumboclaart' or similar phrases. I think I would probably wet myself laughing.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

In 'black colloquial speak' "some" isn't a necessarily needed qualifier. It's always an accepted assumption that there is no all unless she meant all, in which if she did then she'd have qualified it with "all ah uno"* or a phrase to that effect.

I say that because I think she was actually speaking from a more informal mindset.

*all ah uno is bascially saying "you all"

The Suarez Defence.

mudcow007

You know who I blame in all of this......

EKE_38BPM

I don't think there is a catchall 'black community'. For example, West Indians and Africans don't (generally) eat the same food, listen to the same music, dress the same etc.
If Diane Abbott is saying that whitey is trying to drive a wedge between West Indians and Africans or between Jamaicans and 'de small island people dem' or between Nigerians and Cameroonians for example, in order to make those groups easier to control, then I think she is wrong, but I also think it is wrong to assume that all negroids are the same.

DonDaddyD

It's a tough one. It seems as was pointed out by Paulie I infact agree with the journalist. I do find some language Black Community, BME, Black on Black etc et al divisive and seperatists. But I do agree with what Diane said about divide and conquer albeit not from the perspective she was coming from.

I don't agree with the way she said it.

notsoblue

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I don't think there is a catchall 'black community'. For example, West Indians and Africans don't (generally) eat the same food, listen to the same music, dress the same etc.
If Diane Abbott is saying that whitey is trying to drive a wedge between West Indians and Africans or between Jamaicans and 'de small island people dem' or between Nigerians and Cameroonians for example, in order to make those groups easier to control, then I think she is wrong, but I also think it is wrong to assume that all negroids are the same.

+1. I think most people who refer to the 'black community' are generally referring to urban people of black Jamaican descent.

SimonAH

spen666 wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

For fcuks sake.

The two guys jailed for the Lawrence killings are racists.

We need a new term - or stop using this one when hate is not being preached.

Labelling anyone who makes a generalistic comment about (however loosely grouped) a section of people identified by colour, race, religion etc a racist is bloody stupid unless it is a hateful one.

Racism and ppreaching hate are different things.

It is possible to have one without the other

I would disagree - bar the requirement to preach. A racist in my book is someone who deeply dislikes and discriminates against a section of mankind based solely on a recognisable group characteristic and is unable to see such people as individuals.

Racist statements are those indicative of these beliefs.

So (for example, and no shouting at the back please - these are not my held tenets);

Nigerians are all fraudsters - racist
Jews are all conniving, money grubbing cheats - racist

But;

Black people have little history of invention - just a stupid statement, not racist
Americans are all grossly fat - as above, but perfectly fine to state in today's Britain (I raise you a Clarkson and many other contemporaries) even though frankly insulting.
The French are "Cheese eating surrender monkeys" - as above.
White people like to divide and conquer - .............ah,

What we need is a new term that means "Opens mouth without thinking that their statement is stupid, a poorly thought out generalism and insulting to many - but not indicative of deep malice to that group".

Perhaps "Fukcwit" would serve?

rjsterry

EKE_38BPM wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

In 'black colloquial speak' "some" isn't a necessarily needed qualifier. It's always an accepted assumption that there is no all unless she meant all, in which if she did then she'd have qualified it with "all ah uno"* or a phrase to that effect.

I say that because I think she was actually speaking from a more informal mindset.

*all ah uno is bascially saying "you all"

I would love to hear LondonLivvy or LiT say 'all ah uno', 'a wha de raas', 'bumboclaart' or similar phrases. I think I would probably wet myself laughing.

Did you not see AbFab over Christmas? Jennifer Saunders as Eddie leaning out of her chauffeur driven car in Brixton to shout "Wha' gwan?" (sp?)

redddraggon

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

rjsterry

redddraggon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

'We' did very well out of it, the colonies, not so much.

rick_chasey

redddraggon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

Depends how you measure finest I guess, but by measures of the the way they behaved in the empire towards non-Europeans, it was pretty awful.

notsoblue

redddraggon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

Well it was certainly pretty good for the British. And I wouldn't have existed without it. Hurrah!

Paulie W

Rick Chasey wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

Depends how you measure finest I guess, but by measures of the the way they behaved in the empire towards non-Europeans, it was pretty awful.

The British no doubty committed terrible atrocities but there is also an element of 'what have the Romans ever done for us'?

rick_chasey

Paulie W wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

Depends how you measure finest I guess, but by measures of the the way they behaved in the empire towards non-Europeans, it was pretty awful.

The British no doubty committed terrible atrocities but there is also an element of 'what have the Romans ever done for us'?

Not quite sure what you mean.

Paulie W

Rick Chasey wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

colonialism was terrible

Perhaps I went to the wrong schools, but I always got the distinct impression that the British Empire was our finest hour, and we've gone downhill since those days.

Depends how you measure finest I guess, but by measures of the the way they behaved in the empire towards non-Europeans, it was pretty awful.

The British no doubty committed terrible atrocities but there is also an element of 'what have the Romans ever done for us'?

Not quite sure what you mean.

That western colonialism is now seen as fundamentally a 'bad thing' while in fact there were a number of significant benefits to indigenous populations which post-colonial discourse does not allow for.

Ben6899

SimonAH wrote:

"Black people have little history of invention" - inaccurate.
"Americans are all grossly fat" - easily laughed off.
"The French are Cheese eating surrender monkeys" - a commonplace slur, which tends to get laughed off.

And

"White people like to divide and conquer"

Are worlds apart as far as I am concerned.

The first three statements are inaccurate. The fourth statement is a pretty damning one.