Diane Abbott. Is she racist?

Ben6899

I don't buy the "I was talking about colonialism" excuse - what about the use of present tense and zero reference to colonialism in the Tweet itself?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012 ... sm-twitter

Then again, she does have previous for this kind of thing.

okgo

Don't be silly, you know racism only works one way!

MOBO's for instance. Can you even begin to imagine music of white origin awards being allowed?

rick_chasey

okgo wrote:

Don't be silly, you know racism only works one way!

MOBO's for instance. Can you even begin to imagine music of white origin awards being allowed?

Didn't Jamie Cullum win a Mobo?

Edit: he got nominated for one.

CiB

Imagine if you can a white Tory MP using exactly the same words. The whole of the media with the BBC gleefully leading the charge would be clamouring for his head, for the govt to resign en masse and for the nation to have a collective drawing of breath to take on board exactly what's been said. Abbot though? Storm in a teacup with the story dead & buried by the weekend. Like okgo says, racism only works one way.

rick_chasey

In answer to the OP, not in any conventional sense no.

Happens the only thing I know a lot about is 19th Century colonialism, specifically, racism, how it comes about, blah blah blah, so I'm confident I know what I'm talking about, for a change.

rjsterry

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't buy the "I was talking about colonialism" excuse - what about the use of present tense and zero reference to colonialism in the Tweet itself?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012 ... sm-twitter

Then again, she does have previous for this kind of thing.

Err, there is a direct reference to colonialism in the hashtag of her tweet. Aside from the daft comment, I actually agree with her initial point: people repeatedly refer to "the black community" as if there is a single monolithic social group, defined exclusively by the colour of their skin. I don't think it is a useful expression because it describes something that doesn't really exist. People rarely if ever refer to "the white community" because it is so obviously a nonsensical description.

rick_chasey

CiB wrote:

Imagine if you can a white Tory MP using exactly the same words. The whole of the media with the BBC gleefully leading the charge would be clamouring for his head, for the govt to resign en masse and for the nation to have a collective drawing of breath to take on board exactly what's been said. Abbot though? Storm in a teacup with the story dead & buried by the weekend. Like okgo says, racism only works one way.

I'll give you one post to logically explain why that might be the case, before I open a can of pwnage.

Paulie W

rjsterry wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't buy the "I was talking about colonialism" excuse - what about the use of present tense and zero reference to colonialism in the Tweet itself?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012 ... sm-twitter

Then again, she does have previous for this kind of thing.

Err, there is a direct reference to colonialism in the hashtag of her tweet. Aside from the daft comment, I actually agree with her initial point: people repeatedly refer to "the black community" as if there is a single monolithic social group, defined exclusively by the colour of their skin. I don't think it is a useful expression because it describes something that doesn't really exist. People rarely if ever refer to "the white community" because it is so obviously a nonsensical description.

Isnt Abbott's point that the term 'black community' is valid because if you distinguish further it diminishes the power and influence of that group.

suzyb

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Don't be silly, you know racism only works one way!

MOBO's for instance. Can you even begin to imagine music of white origin awards being allowed?

Didn't Jamie Cullum win a Mobo?

They aren't black musicians awards though, just music of black origin like (I think) jazz, hip hop.

rick_chasey

suzyb wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Don't be silly, you know racism only works one way!

MOBO's for instance. Can you even begin to imagine music of white origin awards being allowed?

Didn't Jamie Cullum win a Mobo?

They aren't black musicians awards though, just music of black origin like (I think) jazz, hip hop.

So why mention it?

If you can't work out why it exists, you need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

CiB

Rick Chasey wrote:

CiB wrote:

Imagine if you can a white Tory MP using exactly the same words. The whole of the media with the BBC gleefully leading the charge would be clamouring for his head, for the govt to resign en masse and for the nation to have a collective drawing of breath to take on board exactly what's been said. Abbot though? Storm in a teacup with the story dead & buried by the weekend. Like okgo says, racism only works one way.

I'll give you one post to logically explain why that might be the case, before I open a can of pwnage.

So when Bufton Tufton MP for Shootingdonshire says "White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game" closely followed by "Ethnic communities that show more public solidarity & unity than black people do[;] much better" (I've added the punctuation myself as that's where I interpret the pause), you don't think that he'd be hounded out of his post? I'm not claiming that Abbot is right or wrong, but these days it seems that suggesting any form of difference between [insert your own collective references here] or even just using the wrong term (Alan Hansen saying coloured instead of black the other week springs to mind) instantly has the media leaping to shout racist. And the media but specifically the BBC love that, the idea that they can create a story out of nothing and when it suits, use it to their advantage by keeping the story going and giving it enough of a slant to eventually force a resignation / sacking if it suits them so to do. Hansen, and slightly OT Clarkson, don't fit in their sights so the story quickly dies.

ddraver

Whatever happens I'm even more sure that she is an idiot. I reckon the reason the Tories are nt complaining is that they know everytime she opens her mouth, she converts several more die hard labour supporters into Tories in an instant! She represents everything wrong with the Westminster village approach to politics!

Grrrrrr!!!

tailwindhome

What a ridiculous country this is.

Ben6899

I am aware colonialism was referred to in the hashtag, but look at the context. The whole tweet was in present tense. Even a tweet would have stood up to the extra 'd' required after 'like':

"White people like(d) to divide and rule." Excuse me love, but I don't. Granted some white people like to and I'll remind you that also some black people like to. What has the colour of anyone's skin got to do with it?

You simply can't go around generalising by skin colour - it's horrid.

rick_chasey

a) the media is shouting racist re Abbot.

b) I'd suggest Abbot probably has a better idea of non-white community experiences than Bufton Tufton

c) It's obviously a historical colonial reference. You can't distance yourself from the past. It's why racism is a taboo. It's not just for airy fairy humanitarian reasons. It's because there was 200 years of stunningly extreme racism. Discrimination that still occurs today.

There are reasons why politically correct terms occur. They're an attempt to revise said discrimination.

e) What she said is, from what I know, pretty on the money.

rick_chasey

Ben6899 wrote:

I am aware colonialism was referred to in the hashtag, but look at the context. The whole tweet was in present tense. Even a tweet would have stood up to the extra 'd' required after 'like':

"White people like(d) to divide and rule." Excuse me love, but I don't. Granted some white people like to and I'll remind you that also some black people like to. What has the colour of anyone's skin got to do with it?

You simply can't go around generalising by skin colour - it's horrid.

You've never referred to 'black' people before then?

And in this context, racism, colour has got something to do with it...

rick_chasey

Speaking of divide and rule, is all the furror about this tweet, rather than the discrimination that still goes on day to day not divide and rule?

.......(OK, I may be trolling a bit now).

Ben6899

Rick Chasey wrote:

You've never referred to 'black' people before then?

And in this context, racism, colour has got something to do with it...

I have no doubt referred to "that black fella over there" just as I will have referred to "that fat woman" or "those scruffy kids" when trying to identify someone to - say - my girlfriend. Say I like a bloke's jumper and she asks "which bloke?" If he's a black or Asian bloke in a pub full of white folk, then of course there is no problem with me referring to him by his skin colour to make the identification easier.

BUT I don't recall ever referring to "black people" or "white people" - what would come after that opener? Surely some kind of generalisation. And we all know we shouldn't generalise.

The thing is, Rick, colonialism was terrible and it was indeed a function of "divide and rule" and it was indeed carried out by white people. But to generalise with "white people like to divide and rule" is way off the mark and bang out of order. It's offensive almost. What about the white people living in squalor in colonial times? Were they dividing and ruling?

notsoblue

This isn't really a big deal. Diane Abbot says lots of nonsensical things, and this is actually an example of one of the less ridiculous things she said...

Though to all those who say that a white person wouldn't be able to get away with saying this, I'd suggest that context counts for more than you think.

rick_chasey

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You've never referred to 'black' people before then?

And in this context, racism, colour has got something to do with it...

I have no doubt referred to "that black fella over there" just as I will have referred to "that fat woman" or "those scruffy kids" when trying to identify someone to my girlfriend. Say I like that bloke's jumper and she asks "which bloke?" If he's a black or Asian bloke in a pub full of white folk, then of course there is no problem with me referring to him by his skin colour to make the identification easier.

BUT I don't recall ever referring to "black people" or "white people" - what would come after that opener? Surely some kind of generalisation. And we all know we shouldn't generalise.

The thing is, Rick, colonialism was terrible and it was indeed a function of "divide and rule" and it was indeed carried out by white people. But to generalise with "white people like to divide and rule" is way off the mark and bang out of order. It's offensive almost. What about the white people living in squalor in colonial times? Were they dividing and ruling?

We ALL generalise.

It makes talking about macro issues feasible. Else we'd never be able to talk about any group. In this instance, given a racism discussion, let alone the 140character limit, it makes sense.

And white people did divide and rule in Africa, and ethnic minorities have been subject to divide & rule style politics for as long as they have been in the UK.

And to compare the colonial experience in Africa to poor in Europe is pretty wide of the mark. Congo for example, it's estimated around 10million were killed, and millions more maimed (hand chopped off), raped etc etc. It's not comparable > and for that reason, let alone the 20th Century discrimination, that racism this is a hot topic.

You're a white male right? I am. We have no idea what it's like. I've never turned up to a job interview worried about potential discrimination. I've never been stopped and searched, let alone regularly. I've only ever once walked into a room where I was ethnically outnumbered, and I was very conscience of it. I've never had abuse thrown at my by a stranger for my ethnicity. I've seen it, I've seen it with friends, on TV, etc etc. I can see it happens, and it's not even aimed at me, so how bad must it be?

She's a politician, in a nation that has a pretty homogeneous elites, re ethnicity. She's probably seen and heard things as the first black politican in parliament that we would be horrified at.

rjsterry

Ben6899 wrote:

I am aware colonialism was referred to in the hashtag, but look at the context. The whole tweet was in present tense. Even a tweet would have stood up to the extra 'd' required after 'like':

"White people like(d) to divide and rule." Excuse me love, but I don't. Granted some white people like to and I'll remind you that also some black people like to. What has the colour of anyone's skin got to do with it?

You simply can't go around generalising by skin colour - it's horrid.

Agreed, it's a pretty obnoxious statement, and the exact hashtag was #tacticasoldascolonialism, so I think it's pretty clear that she meant to use like rather than liked. Is that particular comment racist? Yes. Is Diane Abbott racist? No more than the rest of us. Should you try and use Twitter to discuss complex and nuanced issues? Well, duh!

Ben6899

Rick, I am a white male, yes.

You're right; I have no idea [what it's like to be discriminated against] and hopefully I never will.

BUT

Diane Abbot tweeted: "White people like to divide and rule". No, Diane, they fuck1ng don't! And you can't go 'round saying so.

My reference to European squalor in 19C was not a comparison to conditions in Africa (they don't compare - as you rightly pointed out). I was trying to say that when white people were dividing and ruling, that the statement would still be inappropriate.

To top it all off, if Diane Abbott is really desperate for a really good example of a single race organisation dividing and ruling in 21C, then she need look no further than Sudan. But I doubt that would have fitted with her twisted argument. Lack of misbehaving white folk, you see.

Ben6899

rjsterry wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I am aware colonialism was referred to in the hashtag, but look at the context. The whole tweet was in present tense. Even a tweet would have stood up to the extra 'd' required after 'like':

"White people like(d) to divide and rule." Excuse me love, but I don't. Granted some white people like to and I'll remind you that also some black people like to. What has the colour of anyone's skin got to do with it?

You simply can't go around generalising by skin colour - it's horrid.

Agreed, it's a pretty obnoxious statement, and the exact hashtag was #tacticasoldascolonialism, so I think it's pretty clear that she meant to use like rather than liked. Is that particular comment racist? Yes. Is Diane Abbott racist? No more than the rest of us. Should you try and use Twitter to discuss complex and nuanced issues? Well, duh!

She's arguably more racist than I am, but apart from that we're on the same wavelength. Twitter is good for writing about which coffee you've just opened or other banal commentary. And that's it!

rick_chasey

We're (I'm) getting bogged down in the nitty gritty now, but the reference was absolutely colonial, and in a colonial context, the white people means something else, agreed?

DonDaddyD

Man fuck this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

Ben6899

Rick Chasey wrote:

We're (I'm) getting bogged down in the nitty gritty now, but the reference was absolutely colonial, and in a colonial context, the white people means something else, agreed?

I think we're agreed that "white people" means something different to the powers that pushed through colonialism in 19C. If that's what you're getting at.

It's always a good debate with you, Rick. You can be a bit touchy, but at least you know what you're talking about!

Paulie W

DonDaddyD wrote:

Man fark this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may not have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

But isnt Diane Abbott saying that the idea of a Black Community is important because united is stronger?

Ben6899

DonDaddyD wrote:

Man fark this noise.

Diane Abbott is right. You know how many days in a year I have to hear negative but somewhat valid truths based on perception about the collective group of Black people living in British Society or as some would call it "The Black Community"? Nuff!

Well what she said, that's how it looks, feels and seems to Black people sometimes. And no it isn't the aged preverbial stereotype that is the chip carrying shoulder. From our perspective, the language used ("Black on Black gun crime" "The Black community" "Black Minority Ethnic - BME") feels, looks and seems exactly like what Diane Abbott actually said.

It may very well be hard to take, she may not have said it with the bluntness of a Tory MP. But the truth is the truth is the truth.

There I've said it.

You agree that "white people like to divide and rule"?

suzyb

Rick Chasey wrote:

suzyb wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Don't be silly, you know racism only works one way!

MOBO's for instance. Can you even begin to imagine music of white origin awards being allowed?

Didn't Jamie Cullum win a Mobo?

They aren't black musicians awards though, just music of black origin like (I think) jazz, hip hop.

So why mention it?

If you can't work out why it exists, you need to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

huh?

leodis75

Diane Abbott. Is she racist?

No. Is she stupid? Yes.

After watching the Lawrence program on BBC the other night and seeing true racism (on the hidden camera) this is nothing.

Life is too short.

lost_in_thought

Saying 'white people like to divide and rule' and then saying 'oh sorry I was referring to colonialism, hahaha how silly of me' is like saying 'german people like to invade most of europe in search of lebensraum' ... 'oh sorry...' Colonialism, if (and it's debatable) that's what she was actually referring to, is a part of the UK's past, not relevant to today's white brits.

Silly thing to say, and generalizations are inherently prejudiced, much as people do make them. If you had fswapped the 'white' for 'black' Rick would probably have exploded and disgraced himself at work. Again.

I don't think this 'oh everyone who ever said something stupid should resign immediately' idea is very smart either.