Racing standards for a beginner

Road Red

Like an earlier poster I am also thinking of giving racing a go. However I have no idea what the required standard is for a beginner.

The only standard I can offer is a few TTs at between 25-26 mins. I spend most of my time doing longer sportives, generally slowly, finishing in the silver category, usually in the top half of finishers.

Would I be completely wasting my time?

jibberjim

I know of guys who can't break 26minutes in our club 10 who can win 4th cat races. They're a bit different activities though. Certainly it's very, very unlikely that you'll completely embarrass yourself with that performance level, and are likely to be in contention for points. But that will really depend on other things than your sportive/10mile TT times.

Join a club, get group riding experience, then go race.

MikeWW

A closed circuit crit race will typically average around 24 mph for an hour long race. Not dissimilar to your TT times really especially when you consider you can ride in the bunch. The hardest bit to begin with is the change of pace-typically anything from 18-30 mph. So you need to be able to hammer it, recover quickly and go again. Well worth giving it a go and I think most people can finish in the bunch comfortably with a bit of practise. Its a bit harder to win though-and as I never have I'll leave that to others

Johnpsanderson

Your short distance TT ability is probably more indicative of your racing potential, i'd guess that your sportive experience will pay less resemblance to any racing you will do as a beginner (the caveat here is that, certainly in some continental sportives, the sharp end of a sportive can be very much like a road race - but probably at a standard equivalent to the UK domestic professional scene - so i guess you aren't there just yet...).

I'd say that 'beginner racing' is typically 10 and 25 mile time trials, criteriums up to 1 hour and road races up to 2 hours. It's not rocket science to see that this won't be much like 'longer,slower' sportive riding.

Obviously, TTs are against the clock so the standard is what you set it at - breaking 'evens' - i.e. 20mph average would be one step, you are already above that so looking to go under the hour for a 25/24 mins for a 10 is a fairly common goal.

Road/circuit races are a totally different bag, it's much more about accelerations and the ability to ride in a bunch confidently. You might find you are a rubbish sprinter but a good climber (or vice versa) - so might want to pick certain types of races/courses.

Join a club, get group riding experience, get some sessions in a chain-gang , then go race.

markos1963

You've probably got a fairly good base endurance level from your sportive riding and your speed over a 10TT shows potential so I'd give it a go if I were you. Why not try a Go Race event like I did, shorter racing (often a series of short races on a closed circuit) will give you the taste of bunch racing and bike handling skills. This can be done on a day licence or if you are a member of a BC club you can race on a provisional licence which is free with bronze BC membership.
Best move now would be to join a club and get out on group rides then join the chain gangs in the spring.

ilsassocycling

A couple of things for that have already been mentioned above are the change of pace and the bunch skills. Thats the two things that get pretty much every new comer.

Get used to riding in a decent bunch who know what they are doing (not too many around ;-) ) so you feel comfortable. This will cross over to a race up to a point as you need to be confident to saty in the top half and not loose ground every corner or lump and bump. Try to stay clear of the back of the bunch as it is soo much harder there as every movement of the bunch is multiplied back there, not a nice place...

Just try it and learn and soak everything up and a good tip is to find out the decent riders and try to follow them around the bunch, all comes down to a wee bit more experience..

It's great and you'll love it... good luck!

Monty Dog

Join a club and participate in fast club runs and chain gangs. Not quite as full-on as racing but the best training for it. Average speeds count for nothing as it's the big changes in pace that take it out of you. I know 21min / 10 mile TT riders who get blown out first lap of a road race and likewise, cat 1/2 riders who struggle in TTs.

Rodrego Hernandez

Monty Dog wrote:

Join a club and participate in fast club runs and chain gangs. Not quite as full-on as racing but the best training for it. Average speeds count for nothing as it's the big changes in pace that take it out of you. I know 21min / 10 mile TT riders who get blown out first lap of a road race and likewise, cat 1/2 riders who struggle in TTs.

Exactly right. Just have a go, expect to get a kicking but eventually you'll get round and be in the thick of it.

okgo

As above, chaingangs!!!

And I'd actualyl say that depending who you are in a chaingang with they will be harder than a cat 4 race, riding in a chaingang with JibberJim and some others from our club is MUCH harder than a 4th cat race.

Anyway, without wanting to plug my blog everywhere (not that I'm being paid of course) its worth a read as I was you about 6 weeks ago - http://firstseasoncycling.blogspot.com/

Johnpsanderson

okgo wrote:

And I'd actualyl say that depending who you are in a chaingang with they will be harder than a cat 4 race, riding in a chaingang with JibberJim and some others from our club is MUCH harder than a 4th cat race.

This of course is no bad thing. If I go to my local chaingang I can barely hang on at the back of the 'fast' group and just grovel round hanging on for as long as I can - not a great surprise given the riders can include several 2nd cats. As a result when I go to the 4th cat races I can feel very comfortable with the pace... It's all about pushing yourself up in training to ride harder and harder - very difficult to do on your own...

DavidJB

Johnpsanderson wrote:

okgo wrote:

And I'd actualyl say that depending who you are in a chaingang with they will be harder than a cat 4 race, riding in a chaingang with JibberJim and some others from our club is MUCH harder than a 4th cat race.

This of course is no bad thing. If I go to my local chaingang I can barely hang on at the back of the 'fast' group and just grovel round hanging on for as long as I can - not a great surprise given the riders can include several 2nd cats. As a result when I go to the 4th cat races I can feel very comfortable with the pace... It's all about pushing yourself up in training to ride harder and harder - very difficult to do on your own...

Agreed. Train with people better than you

okgo

And in a big club there's usually always someone better at one aspect of riding than you are likley to ever be.

dru

Johnpsanderson wrote:

okgo wrote:

And I'd actualyl say that depending who you are in a chaingang with they will be harder than a cat 4 race, riding in a chaingang with JibberJim and some others from our club is MUCH harder than a 4th cat race.

This of course is no bad thing. If I go to my local chaingang I can barely hang on at the back of the 'fast' group and just grovel round hanging on for as long as I can - not a great surprise given the riders can include several 2nd cats. As a result when I go to the 4th cat races I can feel very comfortable with the pace... It's all about pushing yourself up in training to ride harder and harder - very difficult to do on your own...

Sounds good advise but I have a question

is now the time of year to be doing this type of training? or would you say, do some sort of mid-week chaingang at this higher level and keep the weekend for the longer steadier ride? or vice versa?

okgo

I think there is a lot of conflicting advice about this.

Our club chaingang started in oct and is running now, a lot of people think that is weird, and are advocating longer base style miles instead. The way I see it is as long as I'm up to it, I will do all the training and riding I can. From that chaingang I'm now fit enough to win races, and I haven't felt myself 'burn out' like so many people have mentioned. And I will continue doing a similar training pattern and see how it does for me. When I stop getting better I'll look at it.

For advice from a beginner to beginner, any riding that is making you work hard is good riding, who cares what time of the year it is. I can tell you that I have gone from not being able to hold the chaingang and thus probably struggling in a cat 4 race, to winning that race, all in the space of 2 months, you can have those gains too, who cares what time of the year they're at!

DavidJB

I am doing intervals in the week (Tue,Wed,Thus x 1.5h) on the turbo and a base ride on a Saturday (70ish Miles) and a mixed pace session (60 miles~) on a Sunday with a group. First race is next week so I'll let you know how I get on.

All I know from the mid-week interval training I feel stronger for my Sat and esp my Sunday rides.

Herbsman

okgo wrote:

I think there is a lot of conflicting advice about this.

Our club chaingang started in oct and is running now, a lot of people think that is weird, and are advocating longer base style miles instead. The way I see it is as long as I'm up to it, I will do all the training and riding I can. From that chaingang I'm now fit enough to win races, and I haven't felt myself 'burn out' like so many people have mentioned. And I will continue doing a similar training pattern and see how it does for me. When I stop getting better I'll look at it.

For advice from a beginner to beginner, any riding that is making you work hard is good riding, who cares what time of the year it is. I can tell you that I have gone from not being able to hold the chaingang and thus probably struggling in a cat 4 race, to winning that race, all in the space of 2 months, you can have those gains too, who cares what time of the year they're at!

For how long have you been racing? Do you intend to do increasingly well throughout the road season or just at the start of it?

markos1963

Herbsman wrote:

okgo wrote:

I think there is a lot of conflicting advice about this.

Our club chaingang started in oct and is running now, a lot of people think that is weird, and are advocating longer base style miles instead. The way I see it is as long as I'm up to it, I will do all the training and riding I can. From that chaingang I'm now fit enough to win races, and I haven't felt myself 'burn out' like so many people have mentioned. And I will continue doing a similar training pattern and see how it does for me. When I stop getting better I'll look at it.

For advice from a beginner to beginner, any riding that is making you work hard is good riding, who cares what time of the year it is. I can tell you that I have gone from not being able to hold the chaingang and thus probably struggling in a cat 4 race, to winning that race, all in the space of 2 months, you can have those gains too, who cares what time of the year they're at!

For how long have you been racing? Do you intend to do increasingly well throughout the road season or just at the start of it?

+1 Plenty of people race well at the start of the season due to hard winter training but you rarely see them still doing as well later on. You really need to focus on what races you want to do and gear your training to match those events.

oldwelshman

Dru wrote:

Johnpsanderson wrote:

okgo wrote:

And I'd actualyl say that depending who you are in a chaingang with they will be harder than a cat 4 race, riding in a chaingang with JibberJim and some others from our club is MUCH harder than a 4th cat race.

This of course is no bad thing. If I go to my local chaingang I can barely hang on at the back of the 'fast' group and just grovel round hanging on for as long as I can - not a great surprise given the riders can include several 2nd cats. As a result when I go to the 4th cat races I can feel very comfortable with the pace... It's all about pushing yourself up in training to ride harder and harder - very difficult to do on your own...

Sounds good advise but I have a question

is now the time of year to be doing this type of training? or would you say, do some sort of mid-week chaingang at this higher level and keep the weekend for the longer steadier ride? or vice versa?

Dru it depends what your targets are and when they are.
You are in ideal place to learn from others and your club to midweek training down the flats from what I remember.
You may want to go out with Jiff guys also who ride a bit harder than your guys.
You also have some good people to talk to about specific training , I think Rowlesy is still there and he has ridden top level, Bernard also, and you also know Courtney who will give advice and look who he coached!!

okgo

markos1963 wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

okgo wrote:

I think there is a lot of conflicting advice about this.

Our club chaingang started in oct and is running now, a lot of people think that is weird, and are advocating longer base style miles instead. The way I see it is as long as I'm up to it, I will do all the training and riding I can. From that chaingang I'm now fit enough to win races, and I haven't felt myself 'burn out' like so many people have mentioned. And I will continue doing a similar training pattern and see how it does for me. When I stop getting better I'll look at it.

For advice from a beginner to beginner, any riding that is making you work hard is good riding, who cares what time of the year it is. I can tell you that I have gone from not being able to hold the chaingang and thus probably struggling in a cat 4 race, to winning that race, all in the space of 2 months, you can have those gains too, who cares what time of the year they're at!

For how long have you been racing? Do you intend to do increasingly well throughout the road season or just at the start of it?

+1 Plenty of people race well at the start of the season due to hard winter training but you rarely see them still doing as well later on. You really need to focus on what races you want to do and gear your training to match those events.

My training hasn't changed and it's not what I'd call hard winter training, I commute 4 times a week, do the chain gang then do a race or a long hard clubrun. I'm not hitting the turbo every night, fuck that. I will continue to do well I hope, don't see why not, I'm not going to win a hill climb anytime soon but can go up hills, so we will see.

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Tom Dean

okgo wrote:

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

jgsi

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

I was wondering that as well...

markos1963

okgo wrote:

For advice from a beginner to beginner

I'm not being defeatist just realistic and your statement above probably says more about the validity of your advise or do you know more about periodisation than the established coaches?

okgo

JGSI wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

I was wondering that as well...

I'm sure a few have done it, or cat 4 to elite in 18 months or so is not unheard of. A chap at our club went from cat 4 to pro in under two years I think.

I care not for top coach information within reason. I'm not racing the TDF I'm racing lawyers and the like on a Saturday afternoon around a go kart track, I'll keep riding till I stop doing well, that is it really.

There seems to be so many experts on here that will poo poo anything you say without sharing how they do and what has worked for them.

DavidJB

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

Tom Dean

okgo wrote:

JGSI wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

I was wondering that as well...

I'm sure a few have done it, or cat 4 to elite in 18 months or so is not unheard of. A chap at our club went from cat 4 to pro in under two years I think.

I care not for top coach information within reason. I'm not racing the TDF I'm racing lawyers and the like on a Saturday afternoon around a go kart track, I'll keep riding till I stop doing well, that is it really.

There seems to be so many experts on here that will poo poo anything you say without sharing how they do and what has worked for them.

If they have they must have been super strong before they even started racing, ie much stronger than you are now, and you have had a great start.

I don't think anyone is poo-pooing what you have done, but it is unusual to start high intensity training in Oct to be flying in races in Dec/Jan. Maybe you can continue with good form through to September but most people couldn't do it.

jibberjim

Tom Dean wrote:

I don't think anyone is poo-pooing what you have done, but it is unusual to start high intensity training in Oct to be flying in races in Dec/Jan. Maybe you can continue with good form through to September but most people couldn't do it.

Based on what? I've done 1 hour at threshold (which is the most a chaingang can possibly be) continously through every winter since 2008, my power numbers for both 1 hour and 5 minutes were consistently going up and there were no dips in achieved numbers at any time. I performed similarly, in every race I did (normally wasted loads of energy doing everything to avoid a sprint) and did better in every TT (didn't PB in the 10's as I lost P613 but otherwise.)

So 3.5 years in I've not seen the problem from having intensity throughout the year. Of course 1 hour at threshold isn't intensity, it's using the exact same energy systems at a 4 hour duration. Maybe if okgo was encouraging 10 second intervals it would be different. But please provide some reasons why other than "most people couldn't", it's a common claim, but not one particularly backed up.

okgo

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

JGSI wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

okgo wrote:

If everyone had this defeatist attitude then how the hell would all these people that start at the winter races and end up being elite/cat 12 months later manage it? So much overthinking goes on in cycling, and also as soon as you do well there will be endless people questioning you and putting you down, it's a shame, human nature I suppose. Ride the sodding thing and do it with people faster than you.

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

I was wondering that as well...

I'm sure a few have done it, or cat 4 to elite in 18 months or so is not unheard of. A chap at our club went from cat 4 to pro in under two years I think.

I care not for top coach information within reason. I'm not racing the TDF I'm racing lawyers and the like on a Saturday afternoon around a go kart track, I'll keep riding till I stop doing well, that is it really.

There seems to be so many experts on here that will poo poo anything you say without sharing how they do and what has worked for them.

If they have they must have been super strong before they even started racing, ie much stronger than you are now, and you have had a great start.

I don't think anyone is poo-pooing what you have done, but it is unusual to start high intensity training in Oct to be flying in races in Dec/Jan. Maybe you can continue with good form through to September but most people couldn't do it.

Why must he have been much stronger than I am now? How would you have any idea what potential somebody has? Fwiw my record at the minute is better than his, so maybe I'll do the same? It's just impossible to know, I don't even know what I can do in a season, so how on earth do you have any idea what is possible? This Is what grates so much, people announcing what somebody is capable of.

Let's hear how you train and how that's worked out?

I keep hearing the whole thing about riding hard early in the year, but as Jim says it can be done, some people would probably recommend a recovery day today, I went out and blasted
Myself up 5k of climbs over 70 miles.

Why amateurs worry about how pros train I don't know

Tom Dean

jibberjim wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

I don't think anyone is poo-pooing what you have done, but it is unusual to start high intensity training in Oct to be flying in races in Dec/Jan. Maybe you can continue with good form through to September but most people couldn't do it.

Based on what? I've done 1 hour at threshold (which is the most a chaingang can possibly be) continously through every winter since 2008, my power numbers for both 1 hour and 5 minutes were consistently going up and there were no dips in achieved numbers at any time. I performed similarly, in every race I did (normally wasted loads of energy doing everything to avoid a sprint) and did better in every TT (didn't PB in the 10's as I lost P613 but otherwise.)

The fact that you performed similarly in every race does not suggest you improved much over the season.

jibberjim wrote:

So 3.5 years in I've not seen the problem from having intensity throughout the year. Of course 1 hour at threshold isn't intensity, it's using the exact same energy systems at a 4 hour duration. Maybe if okgo was encouraging 10 second intervals it would be different. But please provide some reasons why other than "most people couldn't", it's a common claim, but not one particularly backed up.

Presumably you have seen some drop off in your numbers over the course of 3.5 years?

I am not criticising anyones training! Just saying not many would see continuous improvement over the course of a 9 month racing season.

Periodisation is a well established principle and the majority of racing cyclists apply it to some degree.

Monty Dog

Tom Dean wrote:

Beginner to elite in 12 months?

I know someone that did this, but came from an elite level in another sport, possessed an explosive sprint and was trained with experienced/ quality riders.

okgo

Jamie Pine 4th - 1st in a year and is winning e123 crits week in week out. Was a rower apparently.

It's all possible if you just go for it.

napoleond

I bought a rowing machine as a substitute for having my mrs around. Turns out I'd misread the box