Turbo Training for the Etape

mikeradar

So Etape Act 1 this year has the following climbs:

Madeleine, 28km, 5.4% avg gradient
Croix de Fer, 24km, 7.2% avg gradient
Mollard, 6km, 6.8% avg gradient
La Toussuire, 19km, 6% avg gradient

In order to train for these, I'm gonna try using the turbo for 1.5hr TT efforts at a lowish cadence.

What percentage of my lactate threshold should I be doing for a 1.5hr TT? Perhaps LT minus 10%?

Tom Dean

depends how many intervals you want to do...

edit: seriously though, what do you want to achieve from these sessions, what other training are you doing and what do you mean by 'TT'?

phreak

I haven't done the Etape but have done some sportives in both Italy and France with similar climbs to those you mention. Most of my turbo work assumed I'd be climbing for at least an hour so therefore I did 1 hour+ tempo sessions with the front wheel raised.

I don't think you'll have any major problems with those climbs but the turbo work will get you well practised at pacing yourself for that length of time, which I found important.

ut_och_cykla

Longer intervals at a slightly higher pace than you'r e used to would be my suggestion - 2 x 20 ( or 3 x 20) at a sustained level of effort that you can only just finish the final interval at. But don't forget to do get used to longer rides too - sitting on your behind for 6-8 hours requires a seasoned bottom and at the same time practice nutrition /drinking.Pacing for the event is important too and needs to be practiced

The Alp climbs are not terribly steep but they are all VERY long - often with sections of stupid steep just when you don't need them. Choose a cadence that you're next lowest available gear will allow (make sure you hae a bail out gear if you feel the slightest bit uncertain.) Doing one Col is fine but several in a row sorts men from mice etc.

mikeradar

Tom Dean wrote:

depends how many intervals you want to do...

edit: seriously though, what do you want to achieve from these sessions, what other training are you doing and what do you mean by 'TT'?

Better hill climbing ability.

Other training includes 6-7 hr rides on the Sunday, and 80 miles per week commuting.

TT = Time Trial

Tom Dean

Time Trial suggests you want to do a 1.5hr race effort. This sounds very hard to me on top of what you are doing already!

For FTP building the staple for most people seems to be 2x20, 3x15, 3x20 or similar at threshold or a bit below. as mentioned above.

Just ride at a cadence you are comfortable with.

ric/rstsport

mikeradar wrote:

So Etape Act 1 this year has the following climbs:

Madeleine, 28km, 5.4% avg gradient
Croix de Fer, 24km, 7.2% avg gradient
Mollard, 6km, 6.8% avg gradient
La Toussuire, 19km, 6% avg gradient

In order to train for these, I'm gonna try using the turbo for 1.5hr TT efforts at a lowish cadence.

What percentage of my lactate threshold should I be doing for a 1.5hr TT? Perhaps LT minus 10%?

It's likely (i don't know for certain as i have no idea who you are or anything about you) that to do well at the Etape (or similar) you need a high lactate threshold, a concomitant high FTP, need to be lean & light (i.e., a lean body builder would be useless), and be able to tolerate a longish amount of saddle time, plus you need to have pretty reasonable road skills (for descending and group riding).

Lactate threshold, is generally defined within science (exercise physiology) as something akin to a first rise of blood lactate at a steadily increasing power output. Most people use the power required to either elicit 1 mmol/l increase over exercise baseline level (i.e., 2.X mmol/L) or the power required to elicit 2.5 mmol/L (i.e., these two definitions are very similar but not exactly the same). However, both these intensities are reasonably and can be maintained for around 2 to 3 or more hours for trained cyclists. They're both about 10 to 15% less power than that which can be sustained maximally for ~1 hr (FTP - functional threshold power).

Also, if you're in the UK you may find that riding the Alps (or similar) may create an issue you hadn't necessarily thought of: that is, when riding such long passes there's nowhere to ease off -- in the UK climbs are generally short and riding is generally punctuated by e.g. traffic issues - such that you often have to stop quite frequently or ease up (over a climb). When climbing the alps last year i found this an issue. Thus long rides with no stopping whatsoever on turbo maybe a useful adjunct to other training (i just found i'd stand every so often to relieve pressure on my uhh undercarriage ;-)!).

Ric

Thus training should be geared to increasing FTP & LT, and losing weight and being skillful. you possibly can't build much skill on the turbo (unless you visualise riding downhill at the time and learning how to take the corners/where to cut across them, etc) but you should be able to focus on building FTP & LT.

mikeradar

Many thanks for your suggestions.

It seems that since I am doing nothing aimed at improving LT / FTP at the moment (aside from indirectly benefiting from my longer rides), it would be better to do 2 x 20 type intervals rather than one long 90 minute session, as this, correct me if I'm wrong, is better to improve LT / FTP.
Is it worth getting sufferfest vids and varying it up quite a bit? I'm sure to throw in some 1hr+ rides on the turbo as well though.

Phreak, I will certainly be raising the front wheel a bit, to really target the climbing muscles. Did you keep to a similar HR / power when you were doing those climbs as you were training on the turbo?

Ric, luckily I've always been lean, at 5ft 10 and 154lbs. I'm getting much better through 6hr+ hilly rides most weeks at getting used to the saddle and some club rides too, but I'm doing nothing at the mo for threshold work. Do you mean that the power at lactate threshold is 10-15% less than FTP? I thought they were at the same level.

Ut, yup I'm doing lots of experimentation with food at the moment, both before and during the ride. Carbo loading on the day before and home made energy gel (mostly made of honey) during the ride.

ric/rstsport

the power at FTP is about 10 - 15 % higher than lactate threshold (for which you'd have to draw blood to measure).

I've no idea whether it would be better for you to do e.g. 2 x 20 mins @ FTP; or something like 90-mins @ 90% of FTP. It's difficult to ascertain what would be better via a forum, due to the time it would take. When someone signs up for coaching with us, the first thing we do is give them a 16 page questionnaire and this helps to guide us. Then we do some testing to further refine the way forward to the next level.

feel free to shoot me an email/pm if you're interested in some coaching
Ric

twotyred

Maybe some of the coaches on here will comment but shorter more intense intervals above threshold are probably more effective at increasing your threshold power than longer efforts at your threshold. I know my coach uses a mixture of both. Also if you are just doing threshold/tempo sessions all the time your body will get used to this and stop adapting.

phreak

mikeradar wrote:

Many thanks for your suggestions.

It seems that since I am doing nothing aimed at improving LT / FTP at the moment (aside from indirectly benefiting from my longer rides), it would be better to do 2 x 20 type intervals rather than one long 90 minute session, as this, correct me if I'm wrong, is better to improve LT / FTP.
Is it worth getting sufferfest vids and varying it up quite a bit? I'm sure to throw in some 1hr+ rides on the turbo as well though.

Phreak, I will certainly be raising the front wheel a bit, to really target the climbing muscles. Did you keep to a similar HR / power when you were doing those climbs as you were training on the turbo?

Ric, luckily I've always been lean, at 5ft 10 and 154lbs. I'm getting much better through 6hr+ hilly rides most weeks at getting used to the saddle and some club rides too, but I'm doing nothing at the mo for threshold work. Do you mean that the power at lactate threshold is 10-15% less than FTP? I thought they were at the same level.

Ut, yup I'm doing lots of experimentation with food at the moment, both before and during the ride. Carbo loading on the day before and home made energy gel (mostly made of honey) during the ride.

I don't have a powermeter on my road bike so it was done more on feel during the ride itself. Not ideal of course, but I'd had a week in the mountains prior to my sportives each time to get a feel for things.

One thing to consider with regards to food is just how different it is to a UK ride. As others have said, here you often have lulls in effort where you can eat food. If you're climbing for 60mins+ you don't really get that lull, which makes chewing anything pretty tough, whilst of course descending a mountain at 70/80km/hr isn't an ideal time to be mucking about with food either. Make sure you try out a few gels to ensure you can eat ok without having any adverse effects from it. In the heat going up the Gavia my gels led to stomach cramps, which wasn't ideal Well worth giving a bit of thought to as you'll need a decent amount of food and drink per climb.

I did the Mortirolo this summer for instance and in the mid-day sun there was a whole lot of fluid lost. Over a 90min climb you'll easily get through two bottles plus 3-5 gels.

ric/rstsport

twotyred wrote:

Maybe some of the coaches on here will comment but shorter more intense intervals above threshold are probably more effective at increasing your threshold power than longer efforts at your threshold. I know my coach uses a mixture of both. Also if you are just doing threshold/tempo sessions all the time your body will get used to this and stop adapting.

Yes, and no. see my comment above.

Also, it could be that shorter efforts aren't much use now (or maybe they are) but are better closer to the event.

liversedge

The elephant in the room here: Endurance.

You need to get some miles in those legs for a sportive like Etape. So century rides each weekend are definitely something you should be planning for. The hillier the better.

Tom Dean

mikeradar wrote:

Phreak, I will certainly be raising the front wheel a bit, to really target the climbing muscles.

Do you really think this will make a difference?

phreak

Chris Carmicheal recommends it. Goes after the hamstrings as much as the quads apparently.

twotyred

century rides each weekend are definitely something you should be planning for

Not necessary and counterproductive. Not counting the 4 sportives I did in preparation my longest training ride for the Marmotte was 4 hours. Regular structured training plus 2-4 sportives will give you the necessary endurance for the Etape.

Doing a century ride every weekend will leave you too knackered to get in any quality training mid week.

mikeradar

twotyred wrote:

century rides each weekend are definitely something you should be planning for

Not necessary and counterproductive. Not counting the 4 sportives I did in preparation my longest training ride for the Marmotte was 4 hours. Regular structured training plus 2-4 sportives will give you the necessary endurance for the Etape.

Doing a century ride every weekend will leave you too knackered to get in any quality training mid week.

I'm starting to think the same thing. I'm currently doing 6 hour rides nearly every weekend and together with my ride to work, its a killer leaving it very hard to do any threshold work at all.

liversedge

twotyred wrote:

century rides each weekend are definitely something you should be planning for

Not necessary and counterproductive. Not counting the 4 sportives I did in preparation my longest training ride for the Marmotte was 4 hours. Regular structured training plus 2-4 sportives will give you the necessary endurance for the Etape.

Doing a century ride every weekend will leave you too knackered to get in any quality training mid week.

Good luck with that then. Etape this year is "only" 140km and likely to take in the order of 7-8hrs. Doing a long ride will always require a rest day. You should be taking rest days anyway.

Be interested to know how you felt climbing up Galibier and AdH at Marmotte with that training regime

twotyred

Be interested to know how you felt climbing up Galibier and AdH at Marmotte with that training regime

No problem with endurance. Felt OK, got a silver medal time and even managed a sprint finish at the end

Back in training for this years Marmotte with the aim of going a bit faster. I doubt it will require longer training rides but the intensity may well increase.

Marathon runners don't run marathons every weekend. If you train consistently (in my case 5 days a week 8-10 hours per week) you will accumulate the mileage you need to build the necessary endurance and efficiency.