Ride Etiquette....

giropaul

I can understand both the OP's and the irritated rider's points of view.

I don't, though, blame the OP.

As an old "dyed in the wool" ex-roadie rider my point of view would be
- Riding through too hard (creating a gap) is poor form, and inexperienced riding
- Going hard up a hill and dropping others may be seen as arrogant
- Doing either or both of the above can be seen by more experienced riders as, in effect, saying "I'm better than you lot but I'm going to stay with you just to prove it"
- Not being able to listen to to the verbal cues in the group is unsafe and rude (such as "single out" "man off" etc)

BUT

How do we expect newcomers to cycling to pick these things up? The OP isn't to blame, because no-one has told them all of this. The cycling media is full of "how to get fitter", "how to beat your best", "how to climb faster", but I've never seen anything on basic established etiquette. I've even seen advice that "a good place to move up is on the inside in corners". This is (or certainly used to be) the worst crime a pro could commit in a group (finishes excepted of course).

When you join in with a group they will have their "rules". Is it a "bash", a "brisk ride", a "club run". How do you read the clues?

If you joined, say, a golf club , you would be issued with a rule book, and be in no doubt as to what was expected. In cycling there seems to be an expectation that people "pick it up". With so many new converts in some groups though it must be difficult for a newcomer to judge just what is "correct", and what not.

My advice would be, if you join up with a group, watch exactly what they do, and then do the same. Only move from the back after a chat about what they are doing that day and whether they want you to work; and ride a couple of hills on the back whilst you work out the group's way of doing things.

What the rest of us maybe need to do is gently let people know how it's done. Shouting and losing it won't help people to learn!

Headhuunter

BigMat wrote:

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

lyn1 wrote:

Why did you need to drop back to allow the next rider to take your wheel? He should have been on your wheel if you were riding at the group's pace. On the front does not include off the front. When you are on the front you provide shelter to those following. You don't do that if you are 50m in front. Same thing applies on the hills. You joined a group who were happy to have you, but by the sounds of it, rode your own pace at times, not the pace the group wished to travel at. On club rides, its often accepted that everyone climbs at their own pace and regroup at the top. That may not have been the agreement in this group and presumably you did not check.
They probably misunderstood you intentions, ie you were not suggesting they were too weak for you, but its understandable that you may have inadvertantly given that impression......but irrespective of that there's no need for the foul language, a quiet word on the first occasion should suffice.

This is pretty much what I was thinking. Without in the slightest defending the guy's outburst, it can be frustrating in a chaingang when someone pulls much harder off the front than everyone else. It breaks up the rhythym and efficiency of the group and kills weaker riders who then can't contribute to the overall effort.

When you take your turn on the front you have to be careful not to pull away from the front rider you're taking over from, even if that means missing a couple of beats on the pedals - cos you are probably going through with more momentum than you think. There's nowt worse than, having done your turn at the front, then having to step on it to keep up with the bloke who's come through strong.

I only know this cos I was that bloke on my first few club rides, was told I was coming through too strong, and made an effort not to do it (I then slowed down too much which is almost as bad, and then found the happy medium!)

Can be difficult not to do it when you're stronger than the rest of the group - but if you ask to ride with a chaingang of strangers then it's probably best to try and keep at their speed and rhythym.

Having said that, the guy was obviously a dick.

This sounds about right. I too have lacked the bunch riding skills to avoid gapping the second man when I hit the front - has taken me a while to realise that when doing through and off you should actually back off when you get to the inside front rather than put a dig in. That said, most club riders will appreciate that it is every man for himself when you reach a hill (although if I'm with a group I don't know I will generally just sit on the wheel of the guy on the front, out of politeness). As suggested above, I fear you may have ended up riding with a triathlete!

As I mentioned earlier. when I rode past the group to the front, I immediately dropped back to the speed of the group to allow the guy at the front to take my wheel, however as I mentioned earlier, he didn't and dropped the pace of the group and didn't take my wheel... I suppose I should have taken this as a hint that he wanted me to feck off. Honestly, I really tried hard to let him take my wheel! He refused! I was only trying to do my bit at the front, I didn't really want to be there but I thought it was bad form to draft the whole ride.... I will admit to steaming up the hills though, but as others have pointed out, this is pretty normal in club and group rides I have been on over the past few years...

bigmat

I imagine he was just a pr1ck then!

KnightOfTheLongTights

giropaul wrote:

When you join in with a group they will have their "rules". Is it a "bash", a "brisk ride", a "club run". How do you read the clues?

My advice would be, if you join up with a group, watch exactly what they do, and then do the same. Only move from the back after a chat about what they are doing that day and whether they want you to work; and ride a couple of hills on the back whilst you work out the group's way of doing things.

What the rest of us maybe need to do is gently let people know how it's done. Shouting and losing it won't help people to learn!

Spot on, totally agree.

It's not always obvious what a group has in mind - they might not be up for any kind of organised riding, just informally taking eachother's wheel now and again, or they may be doing 30 rev turns, or through and off, or the stronger riders may have agreed to pull the rest along, so the latter just sit in.

Not easy to tell at first - in fact I would probably have to ask what the form was when I joined them, but don't often find myself in that position as I'm normally out on club rides, where it's normally through and off or occasionally 30 revs.

Anyway, hope it hasn't put Headhuunter off group riding. Have you ever joined a club?

Headhuunter

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

giropaul wrote:

When you join in with a group they will have their "rules". Is it a "bash", a "brisk ride", a "club run". How do you read the clues?

My advice would be, if you join up with a group, watch exactly what they do, and then do the same. Only move from the back after a chat about what they are doing that day and whether they want you to work; and ride a couple of hills on the back whilst you work out the group's way of doing things.

What the rest of us maybe need to do is gently let people know how it's done. Shouting and losing it won't help people to learn!

Spot on, totally agree.

It's not always obvious what a group has in mind - they might not be up for any kind of organised riding, just informally taking eachother's wheel now and again, or they may be doing 30 rev turns, or through and off, or the stronger riders may have agreed to pull the rest along, so the latter just sit in.

Not easy to tell at first - in fact I would probably have to ask what the form was when I joined them, but don't often find myself in that position as I'm normally out on club rides, where it's normally through and off or occasionally 30 revs.

Anyway, hope it hasn't put Headhuunter off group riding. Have you ever joined a club?

Nah I love riding in a group, I prefer it to riding solo. I have regularly ridden with clubs for a few years and have never had problems in the past...

ollyridesfirst

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

lyn1 wrote:

Why did you need to drop back to allow the next rider to take your wheel? He should have been on your wheel if you were riding at the group's pace. On the front does not include off the front. When you are on the front you provide shelter to those following. You don't do that if you are 50m in front. Same thing applies on the hills. You joined a group who were happy to have you, but by the sounds of it, rode your own pace at times, not the pace the group wished to travel at. On club rides, its often accepted that everyone climbs at their own pace and regroup at the top. That may not have been the agreement in this group and presumably you did not check.
They probably misunderstood you intentions, ie you were not suggesting they were too weak for you, but its understandable that you may have inadvertantly given that impression......but irrespective of that there's no need for the foul language, a quiet word on the first occasion should suffice.

This is pretty much what I was thinking. Without in the slightest defending the guy's outburst, it can be frustrating in a chaingang when someone pulls much harder off the front than everyone else. It breaks up the rhythym and efficiency of the group and kills weaker riders who then can't contribute to the overall effort.

When you take your turn on the front you have to be careful not to pull away from the front rider you're taking over from, even if that means missing a couple of beats on the pedals - cos you are probably going through with more momentum than you think. There's nowt worse than, having done your turn at the front, then having to step on it to keep up with the bloke who's come through strong.

I only know this cos I was that bloke on my first few club rides, was told I was coming through too strong, and made an effort not to do it (I then slowed down too much which is almost as bad, and then found the happy medium!)

Can be difficult not to do it when you're stronger than the rest of the group - but if you ask to ride with a chaingang of strangers then it's probably best to try and keep at their speed and rhythym.

Having said that, the guy was obviously a dick.

And this is often missed these days as people don't seem to want to communicate with other people they don't know. You were told/advised and corrected the original error....if there is a problem, why can't people just talk about it?

I'm not in a club because i simply can't get out in any structured way and tend to go out when i can. I do normally ride with a couple of mates and we take people on or join in with others (including the local club who have helped us home a couple of times) and i don't recall us ever having a problem with anyone. As has been said.....there are nobs in all walks of life and cycling isn't immune....i guess you just found one!

KnightOfTheLongTights

just on a point of etiquette, tell you what IS annoying, whether in a formal chaingang or just in a group: when the rider inside of you sits out to the right, i.e., in the middle of the two riders in front, therefore a) benefiting from both their slipstreams, while b) pushing you out in the wind to dry.

markos1963

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

just on a point of etiquette, tell you what IS annoying, whether in a formal chaingang or just in a group: when the rider inside of you sits out to the right, i.e., in the middle of the two riders in front, therefore a) benefiting from both their slipstreams, while b) pushing you out in the wind to dry.

Oh yes definatly a no no. We had this problem yesterday on a reliability ride, guy in front was sitting in the middle ground AND swerving out as well. The poor women riding on his shoulder was furious at him as she was getting no shelter and being forced out into the line of the traffic. Even after being asked nicely to stop it he carried on with the enevitable effect of splitting up the group.

rick_chasey

KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:

just on a point of etiquette, tell you what IS annoying, whether in a formal chaingang or just in a group: when the rider inside of you sits out to the right, i.e., in the middle of the two riders in front, therefore a) benefiting from both their slipstreams, while b) pushing you out in the wind to dry.

It's more annoying when they rest their hands on your handlebars..

bonkstrong

Whilst on a long hilly ride I bumped into, or rather was overtaken by, several riders from the Cross-Trax club in Leeds. I was about 20 miles in to the 100 or so when at the top of a steep climb they came by. Luckily for me there is a T-junction at the end of the climb which meant I could jump on the back. With a cheery "hello" to the rider at the back I explained where I was going and asked if I could tag along? He said yes and a 10 second "thanks, I don't mind hitting the front if it's my turn" was all that was needed to establish what their "etiquette standards" were.

I was towed along by the bunch for a good few miles with everybody being very nice to chat to, despite me offering to lead they said I was fine to sit at the back and enjoy the ride. It was great to get up and over some nasty rolling hills with them setting the pace and made my ride a lot lot easier.

They were pretty quick but very friendly, if I'm ever out that way these days I keep my eyes peeled. I had the complete opposite experience to the OP, and have since bought from and recommended the CrossTrax shop to people I know - I guess it can work both ways...