Are sportives legal?

Philip Whiteman

Putting aside some of the hostile comments expressed within this thread, there are some interesting, constructive and well informed opinions given.

One suggestion has been the necessity for a 'representative organisation' for sportives and that this could be undertaken by British Cycling or even a trade body. I can see the logic behind this suggestion especially if the theoretical challenge to the legality of sportives arise or that matter, any other issue. However, after some thought on the practicalities, I am not convinced that it work.

The comparison with AudaxUK

AUK is not a trade body representing commercial organisers. It is in fact a membership organisation of audax riders, some of whom organise events on a non-profit basis. Organising individuals must be AUK members, operate their events in accordance with AUK Regulations and receive approval for their events. The ultimate sanction would be to stop the event and organiser. That provides AUK with a strong arm in terms of representing its members to others such as insurance companies et al. If it permitted errant organisers then life would be whole lot more difficult.

Sportive event management companies and organisers are private concerns and not subjugated to any national governing body such as BC or AUK . They do not need to seek permission to run events.

British Cycling

British Cycling would have everything to loose by attempting to become a trade representatives for sportives. It has no legal power as sports national governing body to sanction errant organisers. Equally, if it were to represent the 'good guys', poorly managed sportives elsewhere would tarnish BC's reputation through guilt by association.

Strategically, BC it excellent at representing cycling as a competitive sport in all its various forms. If it were to become involved in representing sportives, I think that it would be a strategically muddled move.

If the balloon were to go up in terms of the 1960 Regulations, British Cycling would be better focussed upon representing its own interests where it can comply control rather than errant event management companies or individuals.

A Sportive Trade Organisation

This could be a positive move but that would very much depend upon its terms of reference. Remember that trade organisations represent the providers and not the consumers so cyclists would not necessarily be better off. The organisation would not have power of sanction or veto over non-members operating events. A relatively successful model could come in the form of the organisation only allowing quality assured members to join that meet strict criteria.

Of course, the golden question is, why would an sportive event company or individual be prepared to pay subs profits to a representative organisation, when it could free ride from representation of the trade. An incentive would be required, for example, 'SportiveUK' approved event badges with quality events.


Representation and sanctions

A representational body can only effectively represent if its members play by the rules, as with AUK or BC. That is important especially when negotiating with policy makers. Otherwise, policy makers will only dismiss representational bodies if it cannot control their members. Such a case could occur if an agreement was reached on the publication of rider times or negotiating with the Police in event planning. Otherwise the whole exercise would be futile. Therefore, as sportives are free-market activities, not subject to regulation and there is no direct benefit to the event management complanies and individuals, I see little benefit deriving from a representative organisation.

As an after thought

I vaguely recall Mark Harding attempting to establish an association for sportive organisers. I assume that this fizzled out for whatever reason.

andrew@snowrace

If it isn't broken don't fix it please no regulation or governing body particulaly no governing body they iether end up as a personal thiefdom of a group of cronys or and inafective commitee who seem unable to agree what day of the week it is. s to timing I'm a fan as I like to try and beat myself on each outing its also good to see how other people have done. So in my view its only a race aginst yourself as to bad riding not seen any that would warrent prosecution.

Rodrego Hernandez

Sportives will get regulated / spoiled due to the actions of the few who make them hard work for the majority. The same way that one or two red light jumpers tar us all with the same brush. Inevitable really.

oldwelshman

Some interesting points. Personally I do not do sportives anymore, mostly due to costs and other interests, but I have done quite a few.
I read the follwoing guideline posted earlier :

4.1 General
No non-competitive event shall be promoted which requires the participants to maintain an average riding speed
of more than 18 m.p.h.

Many sportives I have done have standards for times to achieve gold silver and bronze and from most I worked out that to get gold you have to do over 18mph so that means they are promoting an event that requires you to break the guidelines to achieve gold standard ?
Also as an individual everyone I did was done at av speed over 18mph so does that mean that even though I was not racing and was riding alone my insurance was void due to av speed over the guideline ?
If thats the case its better I just turn up and ride at an event without enterring and rely on my personal insurance
Not that I am planningto of course, jusy hypothetically

Garry H

Rolf F wrote:

Nickwill wrote:

Its all getting a bit aggressive on here. Just because people get their cycling kicks in different ways doesn't mean they are fools. Some people like to be timed running the gauntlet of heavy traffic on dual carriageways or racing round a scruffy closed circuit on the edge of town. Even though that's not for me, I wouldn't dream of calling them fools.

I'm not calling people fools for liking the timed aspect of Sportives. I like it myself. What I am saying is that someone who wouldn't enter an event like the Fred if it wasn't timed is a fool. I mean, how important can it be to an individual that the only pleasure that would make it worth while to enter is a meaningless published time which tells them very little about either their own performance or that of 1200 other entants who they don't know?

I would genuinely struggle to understand why someone would choose not to ride a sportive that appealled to them in all aspects bar published timings. Would anyone really choose to miss a great days ride for want of a spreadsheet at the end of it?

I'm yet to enter a sportive, but the Fred Whitton is probably the only UK one that appeals. However, I do race and sometimes wished that the results weren't published

mamba80

com'on get real! there is sooooo much that a government "could" legislate for, do you think they ll be bothered about a crash or two? no matter how serious?
the Police with their massive reduction in numbers will also have better things to do.
everyone i know who has ever done one of these events cares very much about their time and especially if they ve got the "Gold Std"
Most organisers also tie their events to charities so another reason (for the powers that be) to leave well alone.

Stedman

mamba80 wrote:

com'on get real! there is sooooo much that a government "could" legislate for, do you think they ll be bothered about a crash or two? no matter how serious?
the Police with their massive reduction in numbers will also have better things to do.
everyone i know who has ever done one of these events cares very much about their time and especially if they ve got the "Gold Std"
Most organisers also tie their events to charities so another reason (for the powers that be) to leave well alone.

Getting real, the police already have the power to ask organisers to stop or curtail events and this has already happened in the Great Nottinghamshire Bike Ride four years ago after the leading cyclist in the 100 mile event overtook the coach with the marshals in it.

I suspect that with their limited resources and the growing number of events, the police are much more likely to ask organisers pull their events on the basis that they have not had sufficient notification or they do not have the resources to let the event run and this is where we will urgently need a specific governing type body. For those who argue that it would just drive up costs and question how this would be enforced only need to look at Audax UK where the entrance fees are considerably less than for sportives.

I just cannot believe how we have got to this stage of the game without any governing body and the organisers in complete control of all the cards.

Sorry I don't feel that there needs to be a change of legislation as the police have all the powers they need to stop sportives, and we would have much more power to have the type of events that we want with our own leading body!

mamba80

Well, i think you are asking for a riders type of representative body then arn't you?
A organisers governing body would be just that and look what good similar bodies have done for banking, construction, motor trade etc etc? as far as the consumer is concerned.
I have yet to see any police presence (other than PR) at the few events i ve done.
So one ride stopped in 4 yrs... big deal ok it might be a few more but that does not mean the Police or anyone else is setting out to end grp rides or RR or even TTs which do appear to have have a high incident to rider rate.
Audaxs are completely different, riders go from a to b, no marshals, no NEG, no timing, just a route card and a bowl of soup at a cafe or pub.... and they r grt, the Dartmoor devil audax is a fantastic event BUT to compare it to the Dartmoor Classic is ridiculous.
Good organisers will involve councils, the police, st Johns, local businesses and raise money for charity (and themselves ) the poor ones will run a yr or 2 and then either change or fade away.
A new governing body will change nothing, wont give riders a right to complain and wont give them a refund when things do go wrong, they ll issue platitudes of "it wont happen again" and empty threats.
The Sportive market - world wide - has gone from strength to strength and has encouraged 10 of 1000s of riders to spend a small fortune on bikes and this is what drives the cycle trade fwd (good or bad? )

Tom Butcher

I don't see that a governing body is needed - though I suspect BC would quite like to take that role at some point I wouldn't like to see organisers forced to organise under that or any other banner. I'm not anti BC at all but I think it's better if organisers go to BC voluntarily for insurance and other services and if they prefer to go elsewhere then they should be able to.

One sportive may have been stopped (though I'd have thought that is more of a charity ride than a sportive) but then again there have been instances of road races being stopped by the police - and they have a governing body. I think if the police on the ground see behaviour they consider merits stopping an event then they will stop it irrespective of whether it has a governing body or not.

Pigtail

I really don't believe that anyone is going to shut down one of the few booming areas of the economy at this point in the economic cycle. Sportives are big business. They're here to stay, unless people get fed-up of them.

springtide9

As far as I know, most people will not be able to break the speed limits on most of the roads where Sportives occur.
Over a 100 mile event, you are not likely to gain much by taking unnecessary risks and riding unsafely.

Sportive events are very different to lapping say a 5 mile circuit over the same about of time/distance in terms of traffic making much difference. If you ride with a Garmin regularly, you'll notice even the difference between "overall time" and "moving time" it's not much in it.

Whether the event time is a worthwhile comparison with other riders is a different discussion. Personally I think there is no point in comparing with other riders; in fact, times from year to year will vary even if your fitness was identical (based on riding conditions).

For me, the point of a ticking clock, is so that rather than sitting back and enjoying the scenery (which there is nothing wrong with), it makes some people push a little bit harder than if they were just cruising.
It's basically, what people make it of it. ... and don't read too much into it.

cougie

Not really sure that the boom in sportifs guarantees it's survival.
I'd have said hunting was a far bigger business and that got banned. A few hundred Mamils poncing around on expensive bikes ? We will need more than that to save the economy.

Pigtail

It appears to have made very little difference to hunting actually as most of them appear to carry on regardless. It became a town v country battle with very high stakes. I don't see anybody caring that much about cycling.

5000 people on bikes at the Etape Caledonia, and several million pounds into the local community. It won't save the economy, but it certainly doesn't do it any harm!

markos1963

If sportives aren't races then why did Cycling Plus make a point of stating their 'Team' positions on the Etape Cymru? I have no problem with organisers using timing chips and publishing times but what they should do is not put those times in positional order in any form. Keep all the names listed in alphabetical order and if those riders want to work it out for themselves then all well and good for them.

MIG Rider

i think maybe the question should be are some? Sportives safe. of course they are legal as the riders all stay within the rules of the road.

I organise the Exmoor Beast and The Exmoor Beauty, we present the routes to all local authorities and Police but they cant say no they can only advise. Some Sportives don't present anything, don't have safety and don't as I only just found out insure the riders on the road.

I think a bare minimum should be public Liability Insurance, safety vehicles and rider insurance for the organisation putting on the event. Without the above surely there will be soon the first corporate charge around the corner. Good Thread though!

Stedman

MIG Rider,

I was starting to get a very uneasy feeling about the quality some sportives, however I not aware that there are events being run outside the basic scope of UK health and safety law and without public liability insurance. Sorry but this simply sounds reckless.

The implication of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 comes to my mind!!!

chipperleenie

Considering you normally pay around £25 to enter these events you would certainly expect insurance to be included. Especially as the cost to the organiser for the insurance is only 60p per rider!

I run a club sportive for 300 riders and would not take the risk of running it without the insurance. Other than that I follow the BC guidelines, which are pretty basic and so they should be, people are purely riding their bikes on the public highway and obeying the rules of the road, pretty much the same as they would when out training. I am sure many riders are not members of BC, CTC or other organisation so are not covered by any insurance if they have an accident, but that's a whole other thread I guess.

torms

do you really think it helps when cycling weekly publishes, an article about a sportive , called somone a winner , who achieved the fastest time , posted his av speed,if publications are promoting these like this people will race them.these events are races if your trying to get a quick time do a tt, if you want to do it in a bunch road race, if you want to do rides with nice views, do sportives,its just a loop in the law for people to get round, end of

Caer caradoc

In the course of my duties, I coincidentally bumped into the officer from my own police service who is responsible for liaising with sporting event organisers, including cycle races and time trials.

In our discussion on sportives and perceived racing, she admitted that they are aware of the problem and that these type of events are a cause for concern. However, they will only investigate if a serious complaint is received, an accident occurs as a result of racing, the event is a danger to the riders or other traffic users. Providing the organisers do not publish rankings or times then the event is unlikely to become a problem in terms of 'racing'. However, they may also take a view regarding the organiser should the event pose a danger in whatever circumstance.

oldwelshman

Its is a shame they dont take a keener interest in getting longer sentances for drivers killing and injuring cyclists by dangerous driving.
The ploice these days seem to have their own agendas and ideas of priorities.

Monty Dog

Presently there is no legal precedent - but once there is the inevitable accident resulting in a serious incident to a party and they start firing out lawsuits/claims to all and sundry, particularly where an organiser has published times / rankings and the whole legal precedent for Sportives will come under the microscope.

roger_merriman

Monty Dog wrote:

Presently there is no legal precedent - but once there is the inevitable accident resulting in a serious incident to a party and they start firing out lawsuits/claims to all and sundry, particularly where an organiser has published times / rankings and the whole legal precedent for Sportives will come under the microscope.

I think that realisticly sportives are unlikely to looked at that closely they aren't worth the effort.

thats not to say some are foolish and take risks, but anyone who has seen Richmound Park on a sunny weekend will know that is not limited to sportives!

inspite of the legal case recently I'd say road racing at least on open roads is a more tricky one. any one watching the peloton thunder past will be aware of what and what they are not thinking about.

But realisticly the risks are still very low. hence it being a thread on bikeradar than in the newspapers say.