Are sportives legal?

Ron Stuart

cougie wrote:

But wasnt the Welsh etape run on supposedly closed roads ? So racing shouldnt be an issue ?

Alas, not very closed at all as it turned out and if you have bike and/or medical insurance check it out with them.

From British Cyclings guidlines:-

Section 4:
Regulations for the Organisation of Non-Competitive On Road Events
4.0 Overview
Non-Competitive on-road events fall into several categories:
A Cyclosportive (also known as a Sportive) is designed to be the cycling equivalent of the
marathon, an event which will test the cyclist by a combination of the distance and the
severity of the course.

4.1 General
Non-Competitive on-road events are not races, and shall be organised simply to require that
each participant must ride over a specified route within an agreed time. No non-competitive
event shall be promoted which requires the participants to maintain an average riding speed
of more than 18 m.p.h. 'Average riding speed' means the average speed when actually riding.
In calculating this speed all periods allowed for feed station stops must be deducted from the
total time allowed for the scheduled distance.

In other words BC consider a Sportive to be a Non-Competitive event in part or full. This was a BC supported event, mainly because the organiser wanted the profile and additional advertising pull, BC wanted to make some money and expand it's empire. My point is trying get your insurers to see the bigger picture when in your insurers conditions it states that your are exempt of cover in races or competitive events is the bottom line. I can assure you from personal experience the insurers will use every and any excuse to not cover you in the event of a claim.

Pross

Ron Stuart wrote:

How would you see this post prior to the Etape Cymru?

"Heatonrider et al - extension is due entirely to the fact we signed a v late deal with MAvic whereby there will be a Horseshoe Pass challenge incorporated into the Etape Cymru.

Mavic will give the fastest rider (in each age group) up the Horseshoe Pass a free Mavic Plasma SLR helmet. Anyone who completes the Horseshoe Pass as part of the event will also be put into a draw where a set of Mavic R-SYS wheels can be won.

Mavic will also be providing servicing on the saturday as well as on the day support.

We have over 1600 entries which for the first year has more than exceeded our expectations.

Please see Cycling Plus - October issue - where the route is fully previewed - to quote it's ending '..memories of a truely outstanding day's riding, we're convinced this epic should be on everyone's to do list, though it's certain to wreck some'.

Road closures: We have a window of 8 - 8.45 to get alll entrants off. Roads wll be closed to all entrants as long as the maintain a 12mph speed.

With regards registration - not only is this a logistical concern but the local community do need to see benefits for the disruption that is going to be caused by the road closures.

We do have arrangements for entrants struggligng to get there on the day and am happy to discuss these in detail with anyone on info@k-extreme.co.uk.

This has been an epic challenge to get off the ground and I wish you all the best

K Extreme"

Remember that name K Extreme and like me do you think this consitutes a race in part :?:

It's arguably a time trial rather than a bunch race as you are trying to set the quickest time. From my understanding the Cycle Racing Regs specifically exclude time trials. I'm sure anyone challenged would use that as their loophole.

thegreatdivide

Campagnolo!

No hang on...Rapha!

Erm...gym workouts!

What's this one about again?

DaveMoss

chipperleenie wrote:

DaveMoss wrote:

If you think you are raceing when riding you, as an individual are breaking the law. This is true weather it's in a sportive or if your "raceing" your pal to the pub, or your club mates for a 30 sign; racing on the public highway is illegal whether it's in a car, on a motor bike or on a pedal bike.

So in that case nearly all club runs are illegal as riders "race" each other for signs and tops of hills!

Plus when I go out training and compete against my imaginary friend, Garmin training partner, on my normal training route - that is illegal too.

All cycling will have to be done on turbo trainers now. I am going to change my sportive to an indoor turbo ride for 300 people! What fun that will be! I wonder how many entries I will get? :shock:

Surely sportives are for people who cannot or do not want to be competitive in a 'proper' race.

Well i'm not a lawyer, and I don't really know, but yes, that's my point exactly , all these race scenarios you mention are possibly technically illegal.

Just think about it for a minute , if your club run was obliterated by a couple of boy racers trying to be the first to a 30 sign in their souped up clarksonmobiles; you would expect what they were doing to be illegal ( i.e encouraging each other to "race", not just under dangerous driving" ). As I understand it, the same antics on a bike are technically covered by the same laws, so illegal. But I doubt that we will get police hiding at 30 signs waiting to catch club riders who accelerate dramatically as they approach.

What would you call a ride that had everything a sportive has, but not timed? Why are we bothered about published times when watches to time ourselves are so cheap?

DaveMoss

Polocini wrote:

A lot of newer/inexperienced riders are just trying to get around what to them might be their biggest ever ride. And as soon as you have ridden a couple of sportives you will realise they are not races. As I have ran events through 2011 my outlook towards sportives has changed radically and the 2012 Polocini events will not have a timing system as such but will use the Strava online log. So for those riders who want times it will be up to them to time themsleves and upload the data. I personally think that the vast majority of riders will not care about times.

AL

Now there's a thought, and I think you may be right. In the more recent sportives I have ridden, those going for "a time" seem to be the odd minority ( and I admit to being one, even if the time I'm going for is a long time) . I'm thinking of trying one of my events without the timing as well, but surely we cannot still call them sportives can we?

Pseudonym

Caer caradoc wrote:

Audax UK, who do organise races,

no they don't...

sub55

Caer caradoc wrote:

cougie wrote:

I guess until there's some case law through a prosecution - then we don't know. If something bad does happen and a court case happens then maybe we'll find out - but until then - its not been proven ?

I'm no lawyer though.

You point is well observed and I am a lawyer!

It has come to my attention that both an insurer and a police authority are watching the sportive situation closely following a number of accidents on an event where rider's times were ranked and advertised. Such reckless behaviour by operators could easily result and the law determined in a court case. It would not very difficult to put a prosecution case together especially as the regs are so clear cut. One can reasonanly suspect that the police have not taken action to date, either because it has not been sufficiently high up their agenda or their resources have been allocated elsewhere. A court case and the potential zealous enforcement of the 1960 Statutory Instrument would not only have a deleterious effect upon responsible sportive operators but other cycling activities too. Even without a hearing, insurers could equally exit the market leaving operators high and dry. [Audax UK, who do organise races, have already had insurer problems despite their low risk activities.

We have to be very careful when listening to protests about the questions raised in this thread especially when those protests are raised by individuals with a commercial and vested interest. Cycling is not their activity, it is our activity and they ought to remember that!

:?: are you sure about that? my limited experience of AUK is that they do absolutely everything not to be tard with that brush

sub55

Pross wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

How would you see this post prior to the Etape Cymru?

"Heatonrider et al - extension is due entirely to the fact we signed a v late deal with MAvic whereby there will be a Horseshoe Pass challenge incorporated into the Etape Cymru.

Mavic will give the fastest rider (in each age group) up the Horseshoe Pass a free Mavic Plasma SLR helmet. Anyone who completes the Horseshoe Pass as part of the event will also be put into a draw where a set of Mavic R-SYS wheels can be won.

Mavic will also be providing servicing on the saturday as well as on the day support.

We have over 1600 entries which for the first year has more than exceeded our expectations.

Please see Cycling Plus - October issue - where the route is fully previewed - to quote it's ending '..memories of a truely outstanding day's riding, we're convinced this epic should be on everyone's to do list, though it's certain to wreck some'.

Road closures: We have a window of 8 - 8.45 to get alll entrants off. Roads wll be closed to all entrants as long as the maintain a 12mph speed.

With regards registration - not only is this a logistical concern but the local community do need to see benefits for the disruption that is going to be caused by the road closures.

We do have arrangements for entrants struggligng to get there on the day and am happy to discuss these in detail with anyone on info@k-extreme.co.uk.

This has been an epic challenge to get off the ground and I wish you all the best

K Extreme"

Remember that name K Extreme and like me do you think this consitutes a race in part :?:

It's arguably a time trial rather than a bunch race as you are trying to set the quickest time. From my understanding the Cycle Racing Regs specifically exclude time trials. I'm sure anyone challenged would use that as their loophole.

no its not . to be a time trial legally , riders have to cycle alone and unsupported , starting no less than 1 min apart.
Anything that has competiters starting less than a min apart is a road race .

cougie

British Cycling seem to be confused with their wording. I've done lots of marathons and they are definitely races. So by that sense - a sportive is nothing like a marathon.

I'm not bothered by times on sportives - I only do a few of them and it's more of an excuse to ride new roads and maybe do a bigger distance than the Sunday run.

Ron Stuart

I thought exactly the same as you when I first read that extract from the BC guidlines cougie, however the whole topic was headlined:-
Section 4:
Regulations for the Organisation of Non-Competitive On Road Events.

So it covers or more like contradicts to some extent the message being made. So as I previously said the 2010 guideline regulations could do with being reviewed/clarified.

I have spoken to a Jonny Clay the Cycle Sport and Membership Director at British Cycling and he is aware of the issues raised in this thread. His biggest problem is how and how much should BC get involved in influencing Sportive events.

So, if any of you have any strong feelings and would like to make him aware of them try maybe emailing him on
jonnyclay@britishcycling.org.uk just be polite please.

rolf_f

I find it a bit odd that anyone would think that the published timings would affect the way that all but a tiny minority would ride. You are either competitive or not. On a sportive, I daresay some club riders will compete against each other but probably they will just work together for a quick time. Anyone else who is there for more than just a pootle will probably try to do their best and get their fastest time; whether or not a website publishes that time a day or two later isn't going to affect how I ride. I rode the untimed Phil Liggett last year and the lack of timing had no effect on my riding at all.

Besides, the published times are a bit meaningless as long as food stops are part of the overall. I judge my performance by my computer - not by a list of times comparing me to a load of strangers, some of whom will have skipped feed stops in aid of a quick time which to me misses the point of a Sportive a bit.

bompington

Ron Stuart wrote:

So, if any of you have any strong feelings..

Yep, after reading this thread it looks like, ooh, 3 people maybe... ;-)

Brakeless

bompington wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

So, if any of you have any strong feelings..

Yep, after reading this thread it looks like, ooh, 3 people maybe... ;-)

+1 and there's 3 words for those 3

Get
a
life

Ron Stuart

Something like if you haven't anything worthwhile to say then shut it comes to mind.

bompington

Ron Stuart wrote:

Something like if you haven't anything worthwhile to say then shut it comes to mind.

Funny you should say that, it's exactly the point I was making ;-)

Ron Stuart

There you go again, guess it's time for us grown ups to set an example and like the Dragon's would say I'm out. Ciao bompington or shouldn't be "barking with the wind".

bompington

Ahh, sometimes I just can't keep my inner troll down.

Caer caradoc

sub55 wrote:

Caer caradoc wrote:

cougie wrote:

I guess until there's some case law through a prosecution - then we don't know. If something bad does happen and a court case happens then maybe we'll find out - but until then - its not been proven ?

I'm no lawyer though.

You point is well observed and I am a lawyer!

It has come to my attention that both an insurer and a police authority are watching the sportive situation closely following a number of accidents on an event where rider's times were ranked and advertised. Such reckless behaviour by operators could easily result and the law determined in a court case. It would not very difficult to put a prosecution case together especially as the regs are so clear cut. One can reasonanly suspect that the police have not taken action to date, either because it has not been sufficiently high up their agenda or their resources have been allocated elsewhere. A court case and the potential zealous enforcement of the 1960 Statutory Instrument would not only have a deleterious effect upon responsible sportive operators but other cycling activities too. Even without a hearing, insurers could equally exit the market leaving operators high and dry. [Audax UK, who do organise races, have already had insurer problems despite their low risk activities.

We have to be very careful when listening to protests about the questions raised in this thread especially when those protests are raised by individuals with a commercial and vested interest. Cycling is not their activity, it is our activity and they ought to remember that!

:?: are you sure about that? my limited experience of AUK is that they do absolutely everything not to be tard with that brush

:oops: :oops: :oops: I should proof read my messages. You are perfectly correct. Audaxers pretend not to race

Stedman

I have to admit that I have joined in and enjoyed the phenomenal success of this aspect of our sport; however without any formal structure, scope, vision, code of practice, governing body or anyone taking real ownership of this, there is a real danger of this concept unravelling with major consequences for this and other aspects of our sport.

Whilst there is an argument forwarded on this thread that a controlling body would significantly drive up costs sportives, this has not been the case with Audax. I also suspect that BC does not wish to lead with this issue because of the potential conflict with their road racing interests.

The reason for raising this question is that other stakeholders are already questioning the legality of sportives and I feel that it should be our responsibility to address this and to strategically plan for the future.

cougie

I don't see the need for the BC to get involved. If sportives are lacking then riders should vote with their wheels.
As to the legality - maybe organisers shouldn't publish times for riders - no results then it can't be seen as a race ?

nickwill

cougie wrote:

I don't see the need for the BC to get involved. If sportives are lacking then riders should vote with their wheels.
As to the legality - maybe organisers shouldn't publish times for riders - no results then it can't be seen as a race ?

Then you wouldn't get any entries. You would have an expensive club run. Why does everything have to get bogged down in red tape and regulations these days. I like the rather anarchic nature and variety of the sportive scene. Long may it continue. I do think that a good hill near the start splits up the field and makes life a lot easier for both cyclists and other road users, other than that, I would leave well alone.

cougie

No entries ? I'm sure you would - me for one cos I don't bother about timing. I do proper races so don't feel need to get a time on these events.

It can be an expensive ride, but I like to do ones on roads that I dont normally ride - so its almost a guided tour (if the arrows are right)

nickwill

I'm probably overstating the no entries bit, but I think you would lose a high percentage of participants. I know with the Fred Whitton for instance, that most people I know who ride it are aiming for a time. It provides the incentive to train a bit harder during the early part of the year. That isn't because they are racing, but it provides something to aim for. I have no interest in 'proper races' because I'm 54 and love riding long routes in the hills. The timing just adds a little bit of spice to the experience and an extra incentive to push a bit harder. Providing people ride within the rules of the road, I can't see a problem with that. Nearly all of my sportives have been in the North of England and Southern Scotland. The only consistently dangerous and ill mannered riding I've come across was on two forays south to take part in the Dragon Ride, where the attitude of a large minority was very different from what i have become accustomed to.

polocini

We will find out if people will turn up to a sportive without timing at my next event. And not only that, if you do want timing at the event you have to have your own device and upload the times yourself.

I said it earlier in this thread and I'll stick my neck out and say it again. The vast majority of people want to have a bike ride with like minded people on interesting terrain, value for money, no crap goody bags and to enjoy themselves. This racing crap is a total myth. How can you race for 100miles including stopping for food. I can say this from EXPERIENCE.

There are people on here with their own agendas and again I'll repeat myself. It's getting boring.

AL

rodgers73

Stedman wrote:

I have to admit that I have joined in and enjoyed the phenomenal success of this aspect of our sport; however without any formal structure, scope, vision, code of practice, governing body or anyone taking real ownership of this, there is a real danger of this concept unravelling with major consequences for this and other aspects of our sport.

What on EARTH are you talking about??

"Danger"?!

"Major consequences"?!

This is bonkers. Cant we just go for a bloody bike ride and be left alone please??

Stedman

rodgers73 wrote:

Stedman wrote:

I have to admit that I have joined in and enjoyed the phenomenal success of this aspect of our sport; however without any formal structure, scope, vision, code of practice, governing body or anyone taking real ownership of this, there is a real danger of this concept unravelling with major consequences for this and other aspects of our sport.

What on EARTH are you talking about??

"Danger"?!

"Major consequences"?!

This is bonkers. Cant we just go for a bloody bike ride and be left alone please??

If you look at Post 41 where it states…………“It has come to my attention that both an insurer and a police authority are watching the sportive situation closely following a number of accidents on an event where rider's times were ranked and advertised. Such reckless behaviour by operators could easily result and the law determined in a court case. It would not very difficult to put a prosecution case together especially as the regs are so clear cut”.

It would be bonkers to allow the day to arrive when there is a halt put on sportives at short notice or the cost of insurance becomes so prohibitive that we all suffer as a result of this. It would also be wrong if a fellow rider is taken out by another vehicle through no fault of their own, only to find that the injury claim is rejected by a simple unlawful racing defence argument!

There are two ways forward with this issue where we do nothing and hope that there isn’t a long term problem, or get a successful structure and set of rules established just as they have with audax.

Sorry if it seems bonkers for me to raise this question, however as others outside our sport are discussing this it would be wrong if we also did not have an opportunity to discuss this issue.

rodgers73

Can we just get on with it and see what happens? My prediction - not much will.

I'd take a lot of these "concerns" more seriously if they didn't look like just another way to say "I don't like sportives"

rolf_f

Nickwill wrote:

I know with the Fred Whitton for instance, that most people I know who ride it are aiming for a time.

Yes, they are aiming for a time - but no, relative times are not that important. I daresay some idiots wouldn't enter if there weren't timings but I am sure most would. And they'd time themselves. You can get little electronic devices that fit to your handlebars that can tell you how quickly you did a ride. Most people I think would be happy enough to compare their time more meaningfully with their own past performance.

I did the Fred this year. I finished 472 out of about 1200. It means nothing. I stopped for feedstations and had an extended stop at Buttermere due to a rainstorm. On the other hand, I had mostly good weather on the passes when others did not. On the other hand, some of the time I was in a group but most of it not. My time is not meaningfully comparable with even that of someone who left half an hour before or after me. There are people with faster times than me who are weaker cyclists than me and people with slower times who are stronger than me.

You may be aiming for a time but anyone whose relative time is so important to them that they wouldn't enter if it wasn't recorded has to be a bit of a fool. Still, there are a lot of funny people in the world and some of them do have money

nickwill

Its all getting a bit aggressive on here. Just because people get their cycling kicks in different ways doesn't mean they are fools. Some people like to be timed running the gauntlet of heavy traffic on dual carriageways or racing round a scruffy closed circuit on the edge of town. Even though that's not for me, I wouldn't dream of calling them fools. I love long challenging solo or group rides in the Lakes or Dales, but I also enjoy the buzz of a good sportive. I'm not a danger to anyone or over competitive.Is it wrong that continental sportives are timed? They also have food stops, but timing is an integral part of the tradition. I've always found the cycling world to be a very inclusive place, but mention the word sportive on BikeRadar and handbags start to be swung. Lets all just enjoy riding our bikes, live and let live, and hope that the bureaucrats and compensation culture leave us alone for a little longer.

rolf_f

Nickwill wrote:

Its all getting a bit aggressive on here. Just because people get their cycling kicks in different ways doesn't mean they are fools. Some people like to be timed running the gauntlet of heavy traffic on dual carriageways or racing round a scruffy closed circuit on the edge of town. Even though that's not for me, I wouldn't dream of calling them fools.

I'm not calling people fools for liking the timed aspect of Sportives. I like it myself. What I am saying is that someone who wouldn't enter an event like the Fred if it wasn't timed is a fool. I mean, how important can it be to an individual that the only pleasure that would make it worth while to enter is a meaningless published time which tells them very little about either their own performance or that of 1200 other entants who they don't know?

I would genuinely struggle to understand why someone would choose not to ride a sportive that appealled to them in all aspects bar published timings. Would anyone really choose to miss a great days ride for want of a spreadsheet at the end of it?