So how bad is alcohol?

vs · December 2011

He liked a drink...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/h ... 639496.stm

I have personally drunk at least a 'couple of beers' almost every night for the last 30 years.

I'm 47, weigh 10 stone and have finished many sportives with the fastest time. So perhaps it's not all bad.

mclarent · December 2011

Tom Dean wrote:

If people try to justify their behaviour it may be because they are told 'alcohol intake is detrimental to training' (which I think most can readily accept) but not how detrimental it is. What are you supposed to do with this information, assuming you already moderate your intake in daily life?

Big assumption, and not inline with the OP's comment - I don't consider 4 units of alcohol a night moderate intake, although you wouldn't get the same impression from a large portion of British society (e.g. any town centre on a thurs/fri/sat night).

Tom Dean wrote:

This assumes that 20 units is less healthy than 0 units which in general health terms may not be the case. Some health benefits of moderate alcohol consumption are mentioned in the first link Alex posted.

I never said zero was the target / optimal intake, but was rather highlighting that if recommended maximum is 21 units a week with 2/3 alcohol free nights, drinking 4 units "every night" is at the outside of what's (rightly or wrongly) considered healthy, and certainly isn't "moderate".

SBezza · December 2011

joe2008 wrote:

mclarent wrote:

drinking 4 units "every night" is at the outside of what's (rightly or wrongly) considered healthy, and certainly isn't "moderate".

That's only 28 a week though - the guideline for men is 21-28 - so that is actually 'moderate' in my book.

http://www.drinkaware.co.uk/tips-and-tools/drink-diary/

First para says 3-4 units a day for men.

That is the maximum recommended though, not neccesarily a moderate amount. Thing is what is moderate will vary from person to person. I personally would say 28 units a week is a heavy drinker, but then I hardly drink, more due to my work than training however.

Tom Dean · December 2011

mclarent wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

If people try to justify their behaviour it may be because they are told 'alcohol intake is detrimental to training' (which I think most can readily accept) but not how detrimental it is. What are you supposed to do with this information, assuming you already moderate your intake in daily life?

Big assumption, and not inline with the OP's comment - I don't consider 4 units of alcohol a night moderate intake, although you wouldn't get the same impression from a large portion of British society (e.g. any town centre on a thurs/fri/sat night).

Sorry I meant this in response to your first more general point rather than to the OP. I was just assuming that bike racers who post on here already put some consideration into their alcohol intake along with the rest of their diet.

mclarent · December 2011

Tom Dean wrote:

Sorry I meant this in response to your first more general point rather than to the OP. I was just assuming that bike racers who post on here already put some consideration into their alcohol intake along with the rest of their diet.

Ah ok, gotcha. I do agree with you, however I think the people using this forum vary enormously in ability and "seriousness"... As well as their "usual" alcohol intake...

Herbsman · December 2011

boggybrn wrote:

Well I've started the experiment... no alcohol since last Friday.

So far I haven't missed it, but have yet to notice any difference during or after training. I was still properly tired after the weekend (2 hours Friday, 1.5 hours Saturday & 3.5 hours Sunday). After a day off yesterday's steady turbo session was fine.

I guess that it is somewhat early days yet. I have a fairly heavy (for me) load planned for this week, then an easier time next week. I'm looking forwards to a good bottle of wine with Christmas lunch - followed by the traditional afternoon nap! The ride on Boxing Day could be challenging...

Wait until you haven't drunk for six months to a year. Then perhaps start drinking again and see how you feel compared to how you felt when you didn't drink.

Alex_Simmons/RST · December 2011

joe2008 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Must be that alcohol contains more energy than carbohydrate.

Alcohol (at 7 calories per gram) is more energy dense than carbs (4 cal/g). Fat is 9 cal/g.
But it's worse because alcohol cannot be metabolised directly by the muscles, unlike carbs and fats (well glycogen and free fatty acids).

I think you need a drink mate. Chill out FFS.

Thanks for the advice but I'm chilled enough thanks. I don't need alcohol to relax.

Last time I checked, this was a cycling training forum, not a lifestyle forum. Others asked some questions relating to alcohol consumption and cycling performance and I've provide some information in response.

The OP asked whether alcohol consumption at a given rate was going to affect their training and performance. The answer is yes, it will in all likelihood have a negative impact. You and others may not like the reality of the message but that's not my fault.

I'm not judging anyone's choices, just providing information.
Merry Christmas.

slunker · December 2011

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Must be that alcohol contains more energy than carbohydrate.

Alcohol (at 7 calories per gram) is more energy dense than carbs (4 cal/g). Fat is 9 cal/g.
But it's worse because alcohol cannot be metabolised directly by the muscles, unlike carbs and fats (well glycogen and free fatty acids).

I think you need a drink mate. Chill out FFS.

Thanks for the advice but I'm chilled enough thanks. I don't need alcohol to relax.

Last time I checked, this was a cycling training forum, not a lifestyle forum. Others asked some questions relating to alcohol consumption and cycling performance and I've provide some information in response.

The OP asked whether alcohol consumption at a given rate was going to affect their training and performance. The answer is yes, it will in all likelihood have a negative impact. You and others may not like the reality of the message but that's not my fault.

I'm not judging anyone's choices, just providing information.
Merry Christmas.

I find it doesn't affect my performance one bit and everyone is different, in fact my best results were a week after a heavy drinking session.

Alex your comment kind of supports this saying "it will in all likelihood have" it sounds like a comment from the Daily Mail saying "Broccolli can help cancer" .......doesn't mean it will.

mclarent · December 2011

Human body's an amazing thing eh? Pump it full of toxins and it still performs pretty well.

I love Brocolli btw. Yum.

Oh, and

boggybrn wrote:

l generally have a can of beer or a couple of glasses of wine each evening. Is this likely to impact on the quality or effectiveness of base training?

Yes.

Alex_Simmons/RST · December 2011

slunker wrote:

I find it doesn't affect my performance one bit and everyone is different, in fact my best results were a week after a heavy drinking session.

Alex your comment kind of supports this saying "it will in all likelihood have" it sounds like a comment from the Daily Mail saying "Broccolli can help cancer" .......doesn't mean it will.

Anecdotes are not evidence. I used the phrase because in science, not much is absolute. But it is pretty clear that overall, alcohol is not good for performance. It may well have been in your case that your performance might have been even better had you not drunk so much. Perhaps some enforced rest caused by boozing was what helped, not the booze per se?

So are you recommending people should drink heavily in the week before a big race?

SBezza · December 2011

slunker wrote:

I find it doesn't affect my performance one bit and everyone is different, in fact my best results were a week after a heavy drinking session.

N=1 study is pointless however, you might have found you went even better with no drinking, you just never know. Anyhow having a heavy drinking session followed by nothing for a week is probably not an issue anyhow, it is the regular heavyish drinking that will impact on adaption and recovery.

The human body is a wondeful thing, but if it is really busy clearing alcohol toxins from the body, it will struggle to clear the toxins associated with heavy training, and as such adaption and recovery will be compromised.

Herbsman · December 2011

slunker wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Must be that alcohol contains more energy than carbohydrate.

Alcohol (at 7 calories per gram) is more energy dense than carbs (4 cal/g). Fat is 9 cal/g.
But it's worse because alcohol cannot be metabolised directly by the muscles, unlike carbs and fats (well glycogen and free fatty acids).

I think you need a drink mate. Chill out FFS.

Thanks for the advice but I'm chilled enough thanks. I don't need alcohol to relax.

Last time I checked, this was a cycling training forum, not a lifestyle forum. Others asked some questions relating to alcohol consumption and cycling performance and I've provide some information in response.

The OP asked whether alcohol consumption at a given rate was going to affect their training and performance. The answer is yes, it will in all likelihood have a negative impact. You and others may not like the reality of the message but that's not my fault.

I'm not judging anyone's choices, just providing information.
Merry Christmas.

I find it doesn't affect my performance one bit and everyone is different, in fact my best results were a week after a heavy drinking session.

Alex your comment kind of supports this saying "it will in all likelihood have" it sounds like a comment from the Daily Mail saying "Broccolli can help cancer" .......doesn't mean it will.

So when did you take part in a trial to check whether alcohol affects your performance or not? How long did the trial run for and what was the method? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled (is that even possible with alcohol, given that you know pretty soon if you've consumed alcohol or placebo)?

slunker · December 2011

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

slunker wrote:

I find it doesn't affect my performance one bit and everyone is different, in fact my best results were a week after a heavy drinking session.

Alex your comment kind of supports this saying "it will in all likelihood have" it sounds like a comment from the Daily Mail saying "Broccolli can help cancer" .......doesn't mean it will.

Anecdotes are not evidence. I used the phrase because in science, not much is absolute. But it is pretty clear that overall, alcohol is not good for performance. It may well have been in your case that your performance might have been even better had you not drunk so much. Perhaps some enforced rest caused by boozing was what helped, not the booze per se?

So are you recommending people should drink heavily in the week before a big race?

Did I say that?????? No. Just saying that booze does not affect MY performance. I had 6 months off it and it didn't make any difference at all.

Alex_Simmons/RST · December 2011

Herbsman wrote:

So when did you take part in a trial to check whether alcohol affects your performance or not? How long did the trial run for and what was the method? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled (is that even possible with alcohol, given that you know pretty soon if you've consumed alcohol or placebo)?

Logical fallacy.

Would I need to take part in smoking trials to know it's bad for my health?

Alex_Simmons/RST · December 2011

slunker wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

slunker wrote:

I find it doesn't affect my performance one bit and everyone is different, in fact my best results were a week after a heavy drinking session.

Alex your comment kind of supports this saying "it will in all likelihood have" it sounds like a comment from the Daily Mail saying "Broccolli can help cancer" .......doesn't mean it will.

Anecdotes are not evidence. I used the phrase because in science, not much is absolute. But it is pretty clear that overall, alcohol is not good for performance. It may well have been in your case that your performance might have been even better had you not drunk so much. Perhaps some enforced rest caused by boozing was what helped, not the booze per se?

So are you recommending people should drink heavily in the week before a big race?

Did I say that?????? No. Just saying that booze does not affect MY performance. I had 6 months off it and it didn't make any difference at all.

I didn't say you did, hence the question. OK, so you don't recommend people drink heavily in the week before racing. That's good.

You mention no change in performance. Can you quantify that?

MountainMonster · December 2011

I know a few guys here who think that if yiu drink you are just a fat slob, and spew the same attitude and self righteousness as you and herbsman. Long story short, drinking a few beers during the ride makes them easier to deal with. Funny thing is, even though i drink heavily, i still push them to their limits. Even despite their attirude of my body is a holy grail.

Alex_Simmons/RST · December 2011

MountainMonster wrote:

I know a few guys here who think that if yiu drink you are just a fat slob, and spew the same attitude and self righteousness as you and herbsman. Long story short, drinking a few beers during the ride makes them easier to deal with. Funny thing is, even though i drink heavily, i still push them to their limits. Even despite their attirude of my body is a holy grail.

Where have I spewed self righteousness? I am passing no judgement on what people choose to do. Just providing information.

Significant and/or regular alcohol consumption has an acute and chronic negative effect on performance and recovery and is strongly correlated with higher rates of preventable injury across all sports. There is nothing self righteous about that.

For the 200 or so people I see regularly coming through our training centre, it's easy to pick out the ones who've been on the booze, as their performance (as measured by power output) generally sucks and they get a reduced quality of session. Same for those that are stressed, have had insufficient sleep and a few other things.

I enjoy an alcoholic drink occasionally. Going out for a celebration lunch today in fact and expect to have several glasses of wine.

Alex_Simmons/RST · December 2011

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

I enjoy an alcoholic drink occasionally. Going out for a celebration lunch today in fact and expect to have several glasses of wine.

Mind you, one drink and I'm legless.

MountainMonster · December 2011

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

I enjoy an alcoholic drink occasionally. Going out for a celebration lunch today in fact and expect to have several glasses of wine.

Mind you, one drink and I'm legless.

Have a good time, my post wasn't directed singly at you,but I just found it funny quite a few people in this thread have said that enjoying the "normal" amount of alcahol for a man makes them an alcaholic, implying terrible things.

Herbsman · December 2011

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

So when did you take part in a trial to check whether alcohol affects your performance or not? How long did the trial run for and what was the method? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled (is that even possible with alcohol, given that you know pretty soon if you've consumed alcohol or placebo)?

Logical fallacy.

Would I need to take part in smoking trials to know it's bad for my health?

No, but how can he say for sure that drinking didn't affect his performance? There's no way he could have reliably measured the effect.

mclarent · December 2011

MountainMonster wrote:

Have a good time, my post wasn't directed singly at you,but I just found it funny quite a few people in this thread have said that enjoying the "normal" amount of alcahol for a man makes them an alcaholic, implying terrible things.

Just for the record can you define "normal"? Is it in social or health terms? FWIW I have a drink every now and again - and occasionally get legless - but my average alcohol consumption is certainly <8 units a week (4 glasses of wine), and many weeks I drink nothing. I consider that normal.

Despite some of the reactions and the fight this has turned in to (always fun to watch) I don't think anyone is suggesting that the odd pint or glass of wine makes them a "bad person", and we're almost all(?) amateurs on here so there's little riding on it (pun intended) except our own goals and ambitions. However, the amount of alcohol the OP quoted is not healthy, let alone advisable for a rider who professes to be training with any level of seriousness.

notlongnow · December 2011

Cycling has changed my attitude to booze I rarely drink beer now I used to get through at least 8 cans of 5% beer 3x a week but since taking up cycling 8 months ago or so im lucky if i get through a bottle of wine now as i like to be as fresh as possible when i go on a ride however when ive been out on the town and drank shed loads and rode the day after it certainly affects my performance +no beer belly anymore

MountainMonster · December 2011

Herbsman wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

So when did you take part in a trial to check whether alcohol affects your performance or not? How long did the trial run for and what was the method? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled (is that even possible with alcohol, given that you know pretty soon if you've consumed alcohol or placebo)?

Logical fallacy.

Would I need to take part in smoking trials to know it's bad for my health?

No, but how can he say for sure that drinking didn't affect his performance? There's no way he could have reliably measured the effect.

Considering 90% of us are not pros, i'd say if he feels just as good after drinking as he does on a ride when he hasn't drank within a few days before, he isn't really getting any detrimental effects on performance.

MountainMonster · December 2011

mclarent wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

Have a good time, my post wasn't directed singly at you,but I just found it funny quite a few people in this thread have said that enjoying the "normal" amount of alcahol for a man makes them an alcaholic, implying terrible things.

Just for the record can you define "normal"? Is it in social or health terms? FWIW I have a drink every now and again - and occasionally get legless - but my average alcohol consumption is certainly <8 units a week (4 glasses of wine), and many weeks I drink nothing. I consider that normal.

Despite some of the reactions and the fight this has turned in to (always fun to watch) I don't think anyone is suggesting that the odd pint or glass of wine makes them a "bad person", and we're almost all(?) amateurs on here so there's little riding on it (pun intended) except our own goals and ambitions. However, the amount of alcohol the OP quoted is not healthy, let alone advisable for a rider who professes to be training with any level of seriousness.

That is exactly the reason I had "normal" the way I did. It is impossible to truely quantify what normal is. Some people think that even having one beer a week qualifies you as an alcaholic, and therefore not normal, and some others think (for some odd reason) that a case a day isn't alcaholic.

If going just froma health point of view, an average 440ml can of beer with 4.5% alcahol content is 2 units, and the average allowance of alcohol per day is between 3 and 4 units. 2 beers a day, everyday, and technically your not doing any harm, according to the NHS at least.

As far as social, that depends entirely on age and class unfortunately. In my teens I was normal drinking teenager, averaging about 10 units a day, and that was just normal.

Tom Dean · December 2011

mclarent wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

Have a good time, my post wasn't directed singly at you,but I just found it funny quite a few people in this thread have said that enjoying the "normal" amount of alcahol for a man makes them an alcaholic, implying terrible things.

Just for the record can you define "normal"? Is it in social or health terms? FWIW I have a drink every now and again - and occasionally get legless - but my average alcohol consumption is certainly <8 units a week (4 glasses of wine), and many weeks I drink nothing. I consider that normal.

Despite some of the reactions and the fight this has turned in to (always fun to watch) I don't think anyone is suggesting that the odd pint or glass of wine makes them a "bad person", and we're almost all(?) amateurs on here so there's little riding on it (pun intended) except our own goals and ambitions. However, the amount of alcohol the OP quoted is not healthy, let alone advisable for a rider who professes to be training with any level of seriousness.

You already showed that the OP was drinking less than the recommended units - why do you think this is not healthy?

boggybrn · December 2011

Wow! I've obviously hit on a contentious issue here.

I guess we all have different viewpoints, but it is good to stop & think once in a while. I've obviously slid towards drinking an unhealth amount without thinking of it as anything other than normal. Whilst I'm not really buying the line that I'm a border-line alcoholic I do think that giving it a break is a good idea. I generally find that an hour or two on the bike is a better way of relaxing than a beer anyway.

Now for my next question about mudguards on the club run...

Tom Dean · December 2011

boggybrn wrote:

I generally find that an hour or two on the bike is a better way of relaxing than a beer anyway.

You're not doing it right

boggybrn · December 2011

Tom Dean wrote:

boggybrn wrote:

I generally find that an hour or two on the bike is a better way of relaxing than a beer anyway.

You're not doing it right

The relaxing happens when I get off the bike... too knackered to be tense, just eat & sleep!

Herbsman · December 2011

MountainMonster wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

So when did you take part in a trial to check whether alcohol affects your performance or not? How long did the trial run for and what was the method? Was it double blinded and placebo controlled (is that even possible with alcohol, given that you know pretty soon if you've consumed alcohol or placebo)?

Logical fallacy.

Would I need to take part in smoking trials to know it's bad for my health?

No, but how can he say for sure that drinking didn't affect his performance? There's no way he could have reliably measured the effect.

Considering 90% of us are not pros, i'd say if he feels just as good after drinking as he does on a ride when he hasn't drank within a few days before, he isn't really getting any detrimental effects on performance.

You just don't get it, do you?

Performance isn't just about how you feel. I'd have thought that was obvious even to someone with limited experience of cycling. Just because you feel good, that doesn't mean you are capable of performing well. If it did, then I would have won 12 races this year, and in the race that I actually won, I would have been dropped after a few laps.

You absolutely cannot truthfully state that the previous night's alcohol consumption didn't affect performance in a race the next day, because there's no way of knowing.

MountainMonster · December 2011

I do get it, and just as much as saying feel is not important, it is. If you go out and feel well, you will push yourself harder. My point mainly is that a tiny difference that may be brought on really is not noticable, as not everyone is a pro with power meters on their cranks and chase cars blaring real time stats into an earpiece.

To the hobby rider, how they feel is much more important.

As far as your comment about racing, get a grip dude. Winning races takes years of training, strict diets and not havin many other commitments, which is exactly the opposite of your average hobby rider.

So how bad is alcohol?

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