Cyclists & Hand Signals

spen666

In the old days, cyclists made hand signals before carrying out a manouvere.

Having watched or noted the actions of a lot of cyclists and this includes myself, it seems that it is rare for people to make hand signals before a manouvere- and certainly not as often as they should.

In fact many cyclists do not even look before making a manouvere, including changing lanes


The only hand signal some cyclists seem to make is a 2 fingered one or a shaking fist

Is it any wonder that some people think of cyclists as not belonging on the road ( not saying they are right, but I can see why they reach that view)

spasypaddy

i noticed this myself today, however being the only cyclist on my commute i noticed it about myself as well.

i am very aware about how many times i look around. this is vital to staying alive. but left hand turns i dont bother signalling as much as i should more interested in getting round the corner. i have a couple of right hand turns on a few roundabouts to negotiate, apart from signalling on the way in i need my hands on the bars to go round staying up right. But cars dont seem to realise this, if you dont leave your hands up they think you have changed your mind and are now going straight on.

jds_1981

I indicate where I can & always where I need.
Normally my road positioning will be a very good indicator of where I'm going.

Would be good to indicate more often than I do, but on London roads at least it's often safer to keep ones hands on the handlebars, else you'll be got by the newest pothole/road work that has left a cm high ridge on the road.

Gallywomack

A bloke in front of me nearly whacked a motorcyclist in the head this morning during the scrum to get onto London Bridge, by unleashing a sudden and dramatic right signal without actually looking round. Of the two, the look is far more important for mine - it actually acts as a signal as well. I signal where safe or necessary, I don't think it always is though.

spen666

Its more the nodder type cyclists who swerve from the gutter across 2 or 3 lanes of traffic to turn into a side stree without a signal or look that I was thinking of.

I am however concious that I along with other "regular" cyclists signal far less than we should. We may look and know what we are doing, but the other road users don't. Its too easy to think of only ourselves and not the effect our actions have on others

Jay dubbleU

I always signal right turns but probably not so much left as I find if I'm signalling left motor vehicles seem to take it as a signal to cut in one me

gosport_commuter

Jay dubbleU wrote:

not so much left as I find if I'm signalling left motor vehicles seem to take it as a signal to cut in one me

This is why you should be very careful about when and where you signal. Road positioning is far more important, it's your life on the line, who cares if it inconveniences someone in a car for a few seconds more than it could have done?

notsoblue

Whoa, so many self-hating cyclists around these days. I bet you guys wear a cilice under your bibs

jds_1981

spen666 wrote:

Its more the nodder type cyclists who swerve from the gutter across 2 or 3 lanes of traffic to turn into a side stree without a signal or look that I was thinking of.

Contrary to this, I've been aggressively honked at for apparently not looking when in fact I did. Car drivers don't always appreciate we can get a good hazard view with a very quick glance.

gosport_commuter

jds_1981 wrote:

Contrary to this, I've been aggressively honked at for apparently not looking when in fact I did. Car drivers don't always appreciate we can get a good hazard view with a very quick glance.

The fact they honked at you suggests that you manouvered despite there being a hazard (honking car?) - which in turn suggests that you in fact cannot get a good hazard view with a very quick glance.....

I have never had anyone beep at me unless they viewed me as doing something which affected them. They couldn't care less about my lifesaver shoulder checks unless I move into their line.

Kieran_Burns

If you watch that vid of mine where I crash, you'll see how much I look around, and exactly what kind of arm signal I give - I'm like a skittish squirrel when approaching junctions.

I do a full arm out at junctions and a lowered arm when overtaking parked vehicles - always with a check now (I missed a couple of cars once when just relying on my hearing... tinnitus can get in the way sometimes)

Aerozine50

Often I'll use a modified Mirror Signal Manoeuver type plan of attack, Lifesaver replaces the mirror, Signal, well ususally on far longer than on a car waiting for a gap if required and then manoeuver.

On this last element I don't say, hold onto the signal once I initiate the manoeuver at a roundabout as there are far too many oiks who will still try and pull out on me. I.e. you need both hands to the bars and brakes just in case!!

Once on a RAB how many people actually signal to leave it I wonder??

"Aviate navigate communicate"...NASA

I.e. keep control first, let others know what you are doing is a secondary factor.

CyclingBantam

gosport_commuter wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

not so much left as I find if I'm signalling left motor vehicles seem to take it as a signal to cut in one me

This is why you should be very careful about when and where you signal. Road positioning is far more important, it's your life on the line, who cares if it inconveniences someone in a car for a few seconds more than it could have done?

+1 I think there are certain times where you need to leave drivers with some doubt to ensure they stay behind you. Written down that looks ridiculous but I expect most people on here know what I am getting at.

I always signal with the exception of some left hand turns (as above), this is quite new for me but I realised, it caused more issues signalling than if I had more control and was able to take the turn. If there are cars waiting to pull out I will always signal.

t4tomo

Gallywomack wrote:

A bloke in front of me nearly whacked a motorcyclist in the head this morning during the scrum to get onto London Bridge, by unleashing a sudden and dramatic right signal without actually looking round. Of the two, the look is far more important for mine - it actually acts as a signal as well. I signal where safe or necessary, I don't think it always is though.

Suggest Motorcyclist was too close to cyclist in that case and deserved to be whacked in the head.

Gallywomack

The only left signal I do is on the turning onto Brookmill Rd on the way in (for those that know it), and the reason I do it is because it's a T junction at which nobody will be approaching from the right (becaue to the right of the junction the road is one-way, going the other way). So, there is no need to give way, which means the corner can be taken at reasonable speed, which means I need to occupy the centre or even the right-hand side of the lane to give myself space to make the turn. There is also a secondary defensive aspect to occupying the whole lane, because if you stay to the left here, some cars misjudge and overtake you just before the left turn, which essentially left-hooks you, even though you are turning left yourself.

I've had cars either honk impatiently because they think I'm dithering in the middle of the lane, or worse still try to pass me on the left. So, by signalling left I'm letting them know that although I'm a long way to the right, there's a reason for me being there and it's not because I'm about to turn right! It seems to work as I have no problems at this junction any more, whereas before I started signalling I had lots.

Gallywomack

t4tomo wrote:

Gallywomack wrote:

A bloke in front of me nearly whacked a motorcyclist in the head this morning during the scrum to get onto London Bridge, by unleashing a sudden and dramatic right signal without actually looking round. Of the two, the look is far more important for mine - it actually acts as a signal as well. I signal where safe or necessary, I don't think it always is though.

Suggest Motorcyclist was too close to cyclist in that case and deserved to be whacked in the head.

You may have a point. The motorcylist was certainly in the ASL to start off with, IIRC. Mind you, the cyclist was a tit as well, he had already semi-shoaled me further down Tooley St (the semi-shoal is a name I've just coined for people who use momentum at lights to get in front of people that have already proved to be faster than them and that they should probably just let go first).

Edit: needless to say I summarily rinsed him over the bridge itself.

t4tomo

Gallywomack wrote:

the semi-shoal is a name I've just coined for people who use momentum at lights to get in front of people that have already proved to be faster than them and that they should probably just let go first).

Edit: needless to say I summarily rinsed him over the bridge itself.

I thnk "Twat" covers that type of person off quite well, along with people who, when you are queuing at lights on a 2way cycle path, decide to cruise to the front of the queue in the other lane, set off and realise there are a load of bike now heading for them from the other direction, so they barge there way in front of you without so much as a sorry or an excuse me, actually I think "rude twat" was uttered in that circumstance.

snooks

I always try and signal when it will benefit someone.

If it that someone is me, it's a big, bold full-arm-out, be-in-no-doubt-I'm-going-this-way signal, examples of this include turning right at lights with mobikes and revy cars behind me, turning left if there are any LGVs behind me or signalling right to show I'm going over the Bow interchange. It makes me appear wider than I am the there for drivers will give me more space, or not try to push past.

If it's just overtaking, either another cyclist or bus, I'll do a smaller hand down to show where I'm going.

Before each it's a blind-spot check to make sure I'm not going to have my arm taken off by a passing van, or lamp a cyclist or mobiker.

deptfordmarmoset

Gallywomack wrote:

The only left signal I do is on the turning onto Brookmill Rd on the way in (for those that know it), and the reason I do it is because it's a T junction at which nobody will be approaching from the right (becaue to the right of the junction the road is one-way, going the other way). So, there is no need to give way, which means the corner can be taken at reasonable speed, which means I need to occupy the centre or even the right-hand side of the lane to give myself space to make the turn. There is also a secondary defensive aspect to occupying the whole lane, because if you stay to the left here, some cars misjudge and overtake you just before the left turn, which essentially left-hooks you, even though you are turning left yourself.

I've had cars either honk impatiently because they think I'm dithering in the middle of the lane, or worse still try to pass me on the left. So, by signalling left I'm letting them know that although I'm a long way to the right, there's a reason for me being there and it's not because I'm about to turn right! It seems to work as I have no problems at this junction any more, whereas before I started signalling I had lots.

Where Jerrard Street joins Brookmill Road? I've never used hand signals there because there's no doubt which way you're going. I did get very close to suffering a left hook as some twart decided that as I moved towards the apex of the corner she could overtake on the corner - thereby stealing my ''racing line.'' Signalling left wouldn't have made her wait. However, she got the standard hand signal from me as I passed her at the lights on Deptford Broadway.

The roundabout just down the road, by the Birds Nest is an interesting one. I live down that street so often have to take the right exit off. Given that traffic generally approaches from the south at speed, assuming that they have impetus-acquired right of way, it's not one for indicating left as you exit - you need to have both hands over the brakes in case someone decides to shoot onto the roundabout without checking (a depressingly regular occurrence).

jds_1981

gosport_commuter wrote:

The fact they honked at you suggests that you manouvered despite there being a hazard (honking car?) - which in turn suggests that you in fact cannot get a good hazard view with a very quick glance.....

I have never had anyone beep at me unless they viewed me as doing something which affected them. They couldn't care less about my lifesaver shoulder checks unless I move into their line.

You've not cycled in London have you?

The cyclist behind me seemed to think the driver was at fault when we got to the next lights & he started ranting at them..


Edit, I did move into their line, with plenty of space, in this case to go around a stopped bus.

Gallywomack

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

Where Jerrard Street joins Brookmill Road? I've never used hand signals there because there's no doubt which way you're going. I did get very close to suffering a left hook as some twart decided that as I moved towards the apex of the corner she could overtake on the corner - thereby stealing my ''racing line.'' Signalling left wouldn't have made her wait. However, she got the standard hand signal from me as I passed her at the lights on Deptford Broadway.

The roundabout just down the road, by the Birds Nest is an interesting one. I live down that street so often have to take the right exit off. Given that traffic generally approaches from the south at speed, assuming that they have impetus-acquired right of way, it's not one for indicating left as you exit - you need to have both hands over the brakes in case someone decides to shoot onto the roundabout without checking (a depressingly regular occurrence).

Yeah, that's where I mean. That left hooking so annoys me that I stay right out on the right hand side of the 'lane' to stop cars doing it. But this does then leave some doubt as to which way you're going, leading on one memorable occasion to a car starting to overtake me on the left, before I shouted something clever like 'what the farrrrk!?!'. So I've started to signal now, and that combination of a wide 'primary' position AND a signal has prevented any fun and games there since I've started doing it.

Edit: re roundabout, blimey yeah I wouldn't like to be turning right there, even getting into position to turn right must be slightly tricky at times...

Applespider

But do you signal when there's no-one around to see? Or do you assume that you might not have clocked everyone and it's safer to do it anyhow.

I signal more often than not - fewer left turns than right turns (unless I see a car waiting to pull out of my left turn) Right turns, I always shoulder check and signal before moving. And hold the signal until I know the car behind has seen it - or I'd be squished under the moronic driver tonight who decided to speed up and overtake me (on the opposite side of the road to give me some space) rather than slowing very slightly to let me across and then pass on my left.

When you're actually at a junction though, it's not realistic to sit there with an arm held out so then it's all about road positioning. One nodder today stayed in the gutter all the way to the junction, stopped and then signalled and made a right turn. He was lucky I was another cyclist behind him wanting to turn left rather than a car or he'd have been hooked.

veronese68

Very few hand signals from me this evening, the ones I did were very brief. Both hands firmly on the bars due to the gusts of wind.

optimisticbiker

I always use hand signals, but even then there's no accounting for stupidity.. like the taxi driver the other day... I'm signalling right, in a right hand turn only lane about 5m behind a car turning right... taxi comes straight across from the right nearly taking me out...so i shout 'whoa' at him and his response was "well how was I supposed to know where you were going?"... errr.. right turn only, signalling right... how dumb do you need to be to drive a taxi?

roger_merriman

On the whole I indicate, for most part it's just automatic.

oddly today in RP turning at Robin Hood gate, cyclist coming down see's me and my outstretched hand but clearly doesn't filter into his brain as he cuts across, though in fairness he does say sorry.

though to be fair (again) the driving and riding in RP is worse than the areas around it.

Ginjafro

I more often than not signal prior to manoeuvre. If I don't it is because there is no other traffic. What I always do is check over my shoulder before I change lane, turn and so on. This is what I learned as a "lifesaver" when I was a motorcyclist many years ago. I am horrified at the number of cyclists and motorcyclists who now don't bother and seem oblivious to their surroundings and other road users.

Blue Meanie

Overuse of hand signals by Roadies: Why do club-roadies insist on pointing out every drain, pothole and bit road debris? And keep wiggling their elbows at me?

Thebigbee

jds_1981 wrote:

I indicate where I can & always where I need.
Normally my road positioning will be a very good indicator of where I'm going.

Would be good to indicate more often than I do, but on London roads at least it's often safer to keep ones hands on the handlebars, else you'll be got by the newest pothole/road work that has left a cm high ridge on the road.

I certainly wouldn't be complaining if the ground workers, gas, electric, cable fitters left a cm ridge in the road.

Road my way a smooth road constitutes at least a 10cm "mini speed bump". Literally every 100 metres or so. I have to ride 10 miles just to get to a smooth road.

For all the people that make the futile complaint that cyclists don't pay any road "tax" - VED - I think you would find that many cyclists would happily pay £20 a year if they were guaranteed to have smooth roads without having to ride some kind of random obstacle course due to shoddy maintenence. Also if cycle lanes were actually designed by cyclists and not some pointless idiot who has never ridden a bike. It would be great if councils also removed all the broken glass and detritus from roads instead of sweeping it into cycle lanes.

I know I would - even though the only actual emission I emit comes from my ass!-

Back to the OP. I ALWAYS check the traffic, from behind and in front. If there is no one around I ain't gonna indicate. What's the point?

However, if someone is turning right, and aren't indicating, please explain why I should bother indicating left if they aren't?

When I learnt to drive - not that long ago - I was taught to indicate at roundabouts unless going straight on. Apparently this doesn't get taught anymore. But pointless "theory" tests are enforced. I can't remember any stopping distances, know a handful of road signs and believe I got taught a lot of things that were actually wrong on my theory!

Origamist

Blue Meanie wrote:

Overuse of hand signals by Roadies: Why do club-roadies insist on pointing out every drain, pothole and bit road debris? And keep wiggling their elbows at me?

Habit and courtesy, but if they are "wiggling their elbows" it's usually an indication to take a turn at the front.

A couple of different hand signals here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1MGr41ws1Y

iPete

I make a mental note to signal more but last time I was super clear of my intentions I went into the back of a van flol.

Thebigbee

iPete wrote:

I make a mental note to signal more but last time I was super clear of my intentions I went into the back of a van flol.

I am not sure what to make of this - apart from the fact that even though your intentions were, "super clear" your spatial awareness seems to be pretty far from, "super"!

Like bad drivers, it is too late to change the habits of many cyclists. I think it is important to educate the next generations of cyclists and road users in general.

Is there even a cycling proficiency scheme in schools anymore?

I never took one because it is basically common sense. However, I think common sense is a quality that is sadly lacking in modern day life.

Do you have roundabouts near you anymore? 90% of roundabouts my way have been turned into multi signalled traffic lights that IMO, if anything, completely slow down the natural flow of traffic and frustrate drivers. And as a result they are not only on "autopilot" thus the lack of decency in signalling, but also serve to make them much more aggressive drivers, speeding to get through an amber light.

My daughter is 6 and I would love her to be road aware and cycling aware. When I was at school we had pointless registration every day and 1 or 2 assemblies a week. That must of been 4-6 hours every week of complete BS.

That time should be spent teaching kids, from a young age - how to ride a bike. Am amazed at how many of my daughters 6 - nearly 7 year old kids can't do this! Learning about road safety. Bike security, the importance of lights etc.

What with the technology now available there could surely be a VR app designed to teach kids road safety.

Is the Green Cross Code even taught anymore? My daughter will happily press the button at the lights and only wait for the green man to appear. More often than not it doesn't make a sound anymore. Blind people must love that!

But I always tell her not to trust just that and to "look and listen". She hasn't got a clue!

Which brings me back to the point I made of traffic lights replacing roundabouts. I am certain that people are getting conditioned into relying on inanimate signals to tell them what to do without having any common sense to be aware of their surroundings.

I can imagine numerous inquests. "Did you look, check your mirrors"? " No I didn't because the light was green"!