WTF was the point

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The slippery slope argument?

Hmm..

Less slippery slope, more adaptation. If a particular form of anti-social behaviour (a phrase now hijacked by ASBOs) occurs frequently and is not challenged, then it will become accepted. The next step up the ladder then seems less extreme compared to the background, and is not considered as serious, and so on.

Not necessarily.

You only notice when there's a positive correlation like that.

I know plenty of people who went around egging people on Halloween and kicking down snowmen as teenagers and they're now perfectly respectable and law abiding.

So that level of minor vandalism has become acceptable?

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The slippery slope argument?

Hmm..

Less slippery slope, more adaptation. If a particular form of anti-social behaviour (a phrase now hijacked by ASBOs) occurs frequently and is not challenged, then it will become accepted. The next step up the ladder then seems less extreme compared to the background, and is not considered as serious, and so on.

Not necessarily.

You only notice when there's a positive correlation like that.

I know plenty of people who went around egging people on Halloween and kicking down snowmen as teenagers and they're now perfectly respectable and law abiding.

So that level of minor vandalism has become acceptable?

Was it ever not?

That stuff was happening on the '70s grange hill re-runs I used to watch.

rjsterry

What can I say? It doesn't fit with my general lefty liberal image, but there you go - that sort of stuff really winds me up.

EKE_38BPM

I did lots of very stupid things when I was a teenager, many illegal and/or anti-social. Me and a few mates used to break stuff, set fire to stuff etc. I knew they were wrong at the time, but, "It was a laugh, ennit".

And then, almost overnight, we all stopped. I can't put my finger on what caused the change. All I know is that now amongst that group there is a fire-fighter, a police officer, a paramedic, quite a few professionals (surveyors, accountants etc) and an entrepreneur who is on his third business (Dragon's Den stylee).

Kids will be kids, but they need to know that if they get caught doing wrong, their parents (more important than the law IMHO) will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

kieranb

Good post Rick, nice to see some sanity here once in a while. Children, including teenagers are at a different stage of development than mature adults so have different thought processes and some times act thoughtlessly rather than maliciously, like a few car drivers I suppose. Why is Dennis the Menace and Miny the Minx still going strong in the Beano, why were catapults so popular? etc.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

What can I say? It doesn't fit with my general lefty liberal image, but there you go - that sort of stuff really winds me up.

Hah Don't worry.

In person I can come across as an intolerable right wing bastard.

EKE_38BPM

Rick Chasey wrote:

In person I can come across as an intolerable right wing bastard.

New avatar for Rick?

clarkey cat

In the car on the way back from the airport last night I was listening to an interview with a chap who has produced a genetically modified drought resistant sourghum that has the potential to save millions of lives - and end untold suffering. He was born in a dirt poor, one-room, mud floored hut in Ethiopia to illiterate parents and knew starvation as a child. No, he was not 'rescued' by a Daddy Warbucks but acheived everything on the back of his, and his parents, hard work and determination

Sounds like an amazing person. I'm sure he'll be relevant to a thread one day.

el_presidente

clarkey cat wrote:

In the car on the way back from the airport last night I was listening to an interview with a chap who has produced a genetically modified drought resistant sourghum that has the potential to save millions of lives - and end untold suffering. He was born in a dirt poor, one-room, mud floored hut in Ethiopia to illiterate parents and knew starvation as a child. No, he was not 'rescued' by a Daddy Warbucks but acheived everything on the back of his, and his parents, hard work and determination

Sounds like an amazing person. I'm sure he'll be relevant to a thread one day.

Obv. in Ethipia it is hard to find a snowman to knock over, lucky for him the temptation was never placed in his way otherwise things could have turned out very differently.

SimonAH

clarkey cat wrote:

In the car on the way back from the airport last night I was listening to an interview with a chap who has produced a genetically modified drought resistant sourghum that has the potential to save millions of lives - and end untold suffering. He was born in a dirt poor, one-room, mud floored hut in Ethiopia to illiterate parents and knew starvation as a child. No, he was not 'rescued' by a Daddy Warbucks but acheived everything on the back of his, and his parents, hard work and determination

Sounds like an amazing person. I'm sure he'll be relevant to a thread one day.

>smack!< Ooh that hurts CC, Ah wuz jest getting the debate rolling Just getting some armour in place to ward off the instant arrows of "but they lead underpriviledged lives and have nothing to do" and move the conversation onto other facets.

Actually he really did come across as an astounding and yet humble man.

clarkey cat

If you met me you may find me to be an astounding and humble man also (probably not though) and I was an utter shitbag when I was a kid.

SimonAH

Many were, but why? Being a shitbag is not a required stage on the life path to becoming a good balanced person - it is a hurdle to overcome.

Many do, and this is hugely commendable.

Many don't and remain career shitbags.

Many never were.

clarkey cat

Many never were

Like these guys?

SimonAH

Haha! That would be 'indoctrinated brainwashed religious zealot' Probably even more dangerous.... always rebel and turn into axe murderers in later life. Well known fact that.

No, c'mon, everyone acts up and rebels - bad clothes, purposely obnoxious music, a little furtive cannabis, bunking off school, etc etc Pick anything from my list and feel free to add your own. That's different from being intentionally cruel and destructive. Different from taking pleasure in the pain you inflict in others.

suzyb

No they don't, I didn't. Perhaps I should have, might be a more normal human being now if I had.

clarkey cat

That's different from being intentionally cruel and destructive

and the difference being those were things you didn't do...?

UndercoverElephant

There was a point in the life of my old greyhound where he decided that adolescent puppies were all little shites, and should be showing a great deal more respect to their elders, like they did in his day. He'd run around smacking them round their heads with his front paws. It was ever thus, seems to defy species also.

As for me, I'm with EKE: I was a complete shite as a kid, burned stuff - even myself for a laugh, drank anything, caused aggro. We all grow up. I also remember a lot more burned out bus shelters and smashed windows when I was growing up, so those a bit older than me can't have been angels either.

SimonAH

clarkey cat wrote:

That's different from being intentionally cruel and destructive

and the difference being those were things you didn't do...?

erm "That's different from being intentionally cruel and destructive. Different from taking pleasure in the pain you inflict in others"

Thought that was what I said?

The destruction and the vandalism just hurts everyone, it makes the world more unpleasant for absolutely everyone. From the mum with heavy shopping bags wanting to sit down at the bus shelter out of the rain - who can't because the seats are smashed and the shelter wrecked. From the old fella walking along the pavement having to pick his way through the crap because a bin was levered off a lamp-post. From the guy who has to pay a fortune to have his car touched up or screw up his no-claims to repair the key scrapes down the paintwork of his pride and joy. For the small kid who wakes up excitedly in the morning to see the snowman he made the previous day in his front garden to see it smashed. For the couple taking a towpath walk on a Sunday morning who have to look at shopping trolleys and cones thrown in the water (and have to pay the extra in their shopping bill for recovering and replacing the trolleys). For the people terrified to leave their homes because of the hooting youths sitting outside their house swigging from cans and hurling abuse. For the person who needs rescuing from a group that are taunting and stealing their things - but for whom passers by will not intervene for fear of being stabbed or beaten (and who half the time will not even report it as that would internally acknowledge their own cowardice, easier to ignore). From the teen suicides driven by casual and unthinking bullying.

Sorry, but it makes me tired and angry and upset in roughly equal measures.

If this stuff wasn't acceptable and the root behaviour nipped in the bud when possible (sure, there are always those who won't respond - solutions for them are harder and outside of my ken) then the world would be a nicer place.

EKE, UE and CC, you grew out of it, developed and moved on to become contributing members of society, and that is highly commendable. You were (I am guessing) doing it because it was kinda acceptable in the environment in which you were brought up, and acceptable amongst your peers. Maybe I had a slightly nicer place in which to develop - but I would submit that it is a rolling result of this behaviour that turns areas to sh*t, which then breeds the next wave of kids to behave the same way, which then makes the place worse and the cycle repeats until you live in the classic inner city wasteland and the climb out for those with the drive to climb becomes harder and harder. And worse, the parents and the authority figures no longer care as they themselves consider it acceptable behaviour as that is what they did a couple of years ago, so "so what?" I'm not suggesting you wear hair shirts over your youthful behaviour, but I wouldn't want to be an apologist for it now that we have the maturity and hindsight.

I offer exhibit A, central New York after the initiation of Mayor Ed Koch's Zero Tolerance policy.

It wasn't very many years ago that a girl was multiply raped by a gang in Central Park and left naked, bleeding and battered. She was found shortly afterwards by another group of youths who decided to do it all again.

Today I would walk through the park late at night with my small daughter without a care in the world.

And I have done so.

clarkey cat

CC, you grew out of it, developed and moved on to become contributing members of society

you presume too much. I'm still a coont.

SimonAH

clarkey cat wrote:

CC, you grew out of it, developed and moved on to become contributing members of society

you presume too much. I'm still a coont.

EKE_38BPM

SimonAH wrote:

EKE, UE and CC, you grew out of it, developed and moved on to become contributing members of society, and that is highly commendable. You were (I am guessing) doing it because it was kinda acceptable in the environment in which you were brought up, and acceptable amongst your peers. Maybe I had a slightly nicer place in which to develop - but I would submit that it is a rolling result of this behaviour that turns areas to sh*t, which then breeds the next wave of kids to behave the same way, which then makes the place worse and the cycle repeats until you live in the classic inner city wasteland and the climb out for those with the drive to climb becomes harder and harder. And worse, the parents and the authority figures no longer care as they themselves consider it acceptable behaviour as that is what they did a couple of years ago, so "so what?" I'm not suggesting you wear hair shirts over your youthful behaviour, but I wouldn't want to be an apologist for it now that we have the maturity and hindsight.

I agree with everything you say except on these points:
I grew up in a nice part of town. Not quite helipads and swimming pools in every garden, but not too far off (Google Earth was an eye-opener), so environment wasn't a factor.
I hid all of this bad behaviour from my parents. If they had found out I probably would have been taken into care after the beating I would have received, and because my parents would be doing time for attempting to murder me, so non-caring parents isn't a factor.
Most of my friends didn't do anything like the things I did (as far as I know). It was just a small circle of friends separate from my other friends so, I suppose, peer pressure is the factor.

bdave262000

SimonAH wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:

That's different from being intentionally cruel and destructive

and the difference being those were things you didn't do...?

erm "That's different from being intentionally cruel and destructive. Different from taking pleasure in the pain you inflict in others"

Thought that was what I said?

The destruction and the vandalism just hurts everyone, it makes the world more unpleasant for absolutely everyone. From the mum with heavy shopping bags wanting to sit down at the bus shelter out of the rain - who can't because the seats are smashed and the shelter wrecked. From the old fella walking along the pavement having to pick his way through the crap because a bin was levered off a lamp-post. From the guy who has to pay a fortune to have his car touched up or screw up his no-claims to repair the key scrapes down the paintwork of his pride and joy. For the small kid who wakes up excitedly in the morning to see the snowman he made the previous day in his front garden to see it smashed. For the couple taking a towpath walk on a Sunday morning who have to look at shopping trolleys and cones thrown in the water (and have to pay the extra in their shopping bill for recovering and replacing the trolleys). For the people terrified to leave their homes because of the hooting youths sitting outside their house swigging from cans and hurling abuse. For the person who needs rescuing from a group that are taunting and stealing their things - but for whom passers by will not intervene for fear of being stabbed or beaten (and who half the time will not even report it as that would internally acknowledge their own cowardice, easier to ignore). From the teen suicides driven by casual and unthinking bullying.

Sorry, but it makes me tired and angry and upset in roughly equal measures.

If this stuff wasn't acceptable and the root behaviour nipped in the bud when possible (sure, there are always those who won't respond - solutions for them are harder and outside of my ken) then the world would be a nicer place.

EKE, UE and CC, you grew out of it, developed and moved on to become contributing members of society, and that is highly commendable. You were (I am guessing) doing it because it was kinda acceptable in the environment in which you were brought up, and acceptable amongst your peers. Maybe I had a slightly nicer place in which to develop - but I would submit that it is a rolling result of this behaviour that turns areas to sh*t, which then breeds the next wave of kids to behave the same way, which then makes the place worse and the cycle repeats until you live in the classic inner city wasteland and the climb out for those with the drive to climb becomes harder and harder. And worse, the parents and the authority figures no longer care as they themselves consider it acceptable behaviour as that is what they did a couple of years ago, so "so what?" I'm not suggesting you wear hair shirts over your youthful behaviour, but I wouldn't want to be an apologist for it now that we have the maturity and hindsight.

I offer exhibit A, central New York after the initiation of Mayor Ed Koch's Zero Tolerance policy.

It wasn't very many years ago that a girl was multiply raped by a gang in Central Park and left naked, bleeding and battered. She was found shortly afterwards by another group of youths who decided to do it all again.

Today I would walk through the park late at night with my small daughter without a care in the world.

And I have done so.

I preferred the bit about smashing up snowmen!

FeynmanC

Getting this thread back on topic!

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why don't people ever make snow-women?

Sexist I tell ya.

Snowballs...innit