So where's the Public Sector Strike thread at???
Comments
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Well put.NozzaC wrote:I lost a day's work yesterday because school strikes. So there is some tax money they won't get to put in their pensions.
The simple fact of the matter is this: not every working person in the country can have an indexed linked pension of the size of the public sector workers because it is way too expensive. We simply do not have enough money. It is only possible for them to have these because there are millions of private sector workers funding them. Therefore they are unfair. Why should one section of the working public finance the pensions of the other?
I kind of like their argument that private sector workers should not be jealous but in fact should be striking for their own pensions to be as good as their's. It appeals to me. However it doesn't hold water. We cannot all get those types of pensions now that people are living longer. We either get smaller pensions or work longer.
I wish it wasn't the case but it is.
I think most people who work in the private sector realise that there are ups and downs and that when times are hard you have to take it on the chin and get on with things. Unfortunately too many in the public sector just don't get it and expect to be insulated from this regardless of economic conditions. A lot of them also seem to forget that it's the private sector that pays their wages...and that's the large majority of the working population."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
rjsterry wrote:Interesting. So putting in a salary of £21,000, retiring at 68 after 40 years of service gives a pension of £10,500 a year + £31,500 lump sum. Not too shabby I'd suggest. If you change the years of service to 35 (retiring at 55) you still get £9,187.50 per year. Gold-plated is over stating it, but that's really pretty good.
"Quite good"? One and a half times your salary lump sum and half your salary for the remainder of your life GUARANTEED. I'd call that better than quite good. How could a private sector person get that on £21K? How much of that £21K would they need to save to get a POSSIBLE payout like that? Even if their pension happens to invest well at a good time in the economy there is still no guarantee their annuity would be any good.
I think "unsustainable" would be a better word.0 -
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notsoblue wrote:
Indeed, but "fair" seems to be the incongrous buzz-word of "the cuts" and "the strikes" so it seems entirely appropriate to turn it back on them.
I'm glad you've grasped the concept though NSB.0 -
God I wish it was possible for all of us just to get those pensions. I really do. I'm very worried about my pension arrangements because I cannot afford to pay enough in to get a good pension. I'm looking at working until I'm 70 at this rate.
One reason I cannot afford to pay enough in is because a lot of my money is taken away from me by the government and given to other people. Some of it no doubt goes to needy people who really cannot work or have other difficulties. However some of that is to fund other people's guaranteed pensions. Why is that acceptable and fair? Why should me and my family have a harder life so some other healthy, working adult can have an easier one at my expense?
If these pensions are affordable then lets ALL of us have them - private and public. Anyone care to provide some figures that will allow this to happen and you've got my vote and everyone elses. However non of the parties can make that promise.0 -
Ok, so considering what I've read here I'm confused about what people think about pensions in general.
Is it possible to actually have a good pension at all?0 -
NozzaC wrote:notsoblue wrote:Ok, so considering what I've read here I'm confused about what people think about pensions in general.
Is it possible to actually have a good pension at all?
Not in a low paid job in the private sector, no.
Or the public sector it would seem, as these are unsupportable.
So how much would someone need to earn to have a good pension? And would would become of the people who earned below that?0 -
The penny drops...if only more people in the public sector understood and accepted this point.notsoblue wrote:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's very hard to say because private sector pension pots depend on the performance of the stock market. And then the annuity you have to buy also depends on a number of factors.
I can't give you the cut off point but it's safe to say someone on £20K cannot possibly save enough to have a decent amount of money coming in for say 25 years retirement but someone on £100K can.
What becomes of people with inadequate pensions? They have a hard retirement.
The way out of all this is to stop paying out the insane amounts of money we pay in benefits to people of working age. In 1980 the total benefits bill was £72 billion. Last year it was £165 billion. That's a lot of money and a lot of tax you have to pay. If you didn't have to pay all that then you'd be able to put more money in your pension.0 -
notsoblue wrote:NozzaC wrote:Not in a low paid job in the private sector, no.
Or the public sector it would seem, as these are unsupportable.
The public sector pensions are astounding, even accounting for the proposed changes. That, in summary, is the whole point - they are still bloody good compared to, well, just about any private sector scheme.0 -
NozzaC wrote:The way out of all this is to stop paying out the insane amounts of money we pay in benefits to people of working age. In 1980 the total benefits bill was £72 billion. Last year it was £165 billion. That's a lot of money and a lot of tax you have to pay. If you didn't have to pay all that then you'd be able to put more money in your pension.
Careful, you'll be called a fascist shortly.0 -
seriously, no fights yet?
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It’s simply not true that all or a majority of public sector workers want their pensions left untouched or to be “insulated” from economic conditions. Under the circumstances (severe recession and an ageing population) I’ve no problem with my pension being squeezed (similarly I had no problem with a pay freeze last year). Colleagues who I’ve discussed it with (and my mum who’s a nurse due to retire next year) largely feel the same way.Stevo 666 wrote:
Well put.NozzaC wrote:I lost a day's work yesterday because school strikes. So there is some tax money they won't get to put in their pensions.
The simple fact of the matter is this: not every working person in the country can have an indexed linked pension of the size of the public sector workers because it is way too expensive. We simply do not have enough money. It is only possible for them to have these because there are millions of private sector workers funding them. Therefore they are unfair. Why should one section of the working public finance the pensions of the other?
I kind of like their argument that private sector workers should not be jealous but in fact should be striking for their own pensions to be as good as their's. It appeals to me. However it doesn't hold water. We cannot all get those types of pensions now that people are living longer. We either get smaller pensions or work longer.
I wish it wasn't the case but it is.
I think most people who work in the private sector realise that there are ups and downs and that when times are hard you have to take it on the chin and get on with things. Unfortunately too many in the public sector just don't get it and expect to be insulated from this regardless of economic conditions. A lot of them also seem to forget that it's the private sector that pays their wages...and that's the large majority of the working population.
The actual argument is over extent.
As for “we pay their wages”, well yes but public sector workers provide the services and system of governance on which we all rely to sustain what is (relatively speaking) a pretty good lifestyle. That’s kind of how societies like ours work so not sure what the point being made is here.0 -
Godders1 wrote:As for “we pay their wages”, well yes but public sector workers provide the services and system of governance on which we all rely to sustain what is (relatively speaking) a pretty good lifestyle. That’s kind of how societies like ours work so not sure what the point being made is here.
Well said. It also sustains the conditions that the private sector relies upon to function...0 -
NozzaC wrote:rjsterry wrote:Interesting. So putting in a salary of £21,000, retiring at 68 after 40 years of service gives a pension of £10,500 a year + £31,500 lump sum. Not too shabby I'd suggest. If you change the years of service to 35 (retiring at 55) you still get £9,187.50 per year. Gold-plated is over stating it, but that's really pretty good.
"Quite good"? One and a half times your salary lump sum and half your salary for the remainder of your life GUARANTEED. I'd call that better than quite good. How could a private sector person get that on £21K? How much of that £21K would they need to save to get a POSSIBLE payout like that? Even if their pension happens to invest well at a good time in the economy there is still no guarantee their annuity would be any good.
I think "unsustainable" would be a better word.
http://www.hl.co.uk/pensions/interactiv ... calculator
A 28 year old currently on £21,000 a year looking to get £10,800 in today's terms at age 68 would need contribution of 21.75% to achieve this assuming 5% pension growth and 3% increase in pension income each year once retired. They still need 11.5% if the pension grows at 7%. There are not many private pension funds growing at 5% currently let alone 7%.
The NHS scheme is guaranteed to pay this amount regardless of growth, if you can find me private pension that can offer that I'd be amazed and would like the details.--
Chris
Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/50 -
notsoblue wrote:NozzaC wrote:notsoblue wrote:Ok, so considering what I've read here I'm confused about what people think about pensions in general.
Is it possible to actually have a good pension at all?
Not in a low paid job in the private sector, no.
Or the public sector it would seem, as these are unsupportable.
So how much would someone need to earn to have a good pension? And would would become of the people who earned below that?
The Hutton report says that all public sector workers should be able to get 'fair' wages and goes some way towards indicating how to work out what 'fair' is.FCN 9 || FCN 50 -
jds_1981 wrote:notsoblue wrote:NozzaC wrote:notsoblue wrote:Ok, so considering what I've read here I'm confused about what people think about pensions in general.
Is it possible to actually have a good pension at all?
Not in a low paid job in the private sector, no.
Or the public sector it would seem, as these are unsupportable.
So how much would someone need to earn to have a good pension? And would would become of the people who earned below that?
The Hutton report says that all public sector workers should be able to get 'fair' wages and goes some way towards indicating how to work out what 'fair' is.
Is 'fair' in this case 'supportable'?0 -
rjsterry wrote:
Define 'worker'.
ETA: My! Those are up to date pictures.
The vast majority in the bottom half of the flag. Hope the pics are more current now
"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college! " - Homer0 -
Godders1 wrote:
As for “we pay their wages”, well yes but public sector workers provide the services and system of governance on which we all rely to sustain what is (relatively speaking) a pretty good lifestyle. That’s kind of how societies like ours work so not sure what the point being made is here.
Who said anything about "we pay their wages"? That's a strawman.
I'm happy to pay their wages. The jobs (well most of them anyway) need doing and people need paying a fair wage. They also need to be paying into their pension from that wage, like everyone else.
What I'm not happy to do is to pay for a guaranteed pension better than any I can afford to pay for just because their job is in the public sector or allowing them to retire earlier than most private sector workers.0 -
MaxwellBygraves wrote:rjsterry wrote:
Define 'worker'.
ETA: My! Those are up to date pictures.
The vast majority in the bottom half of the flag. Hope the pics are more current now
Very good - have you got some pretty pictures for who pays the biggest proportions of tax?0 -
This is basically the crux of the whole debate isn't it? Personally I'm apathetic about it, but many people seem to consider that situation unfair.NozzaC wrote:Godders1 wrote:
As for “we pay their wages”, well yes but public sector workers provide the services and system of governance on which we all rely to sustain what is (relatively speaking) a pretty good lifestyle. That’s kind of how societies like ours work so not sure what the point being made is here.
Who said anything about "we pay their wages"? That's a strawman.
I'm happy to pay their wages. The jobs (well most of them anyway) need doing and people need paying a fair wage. They also need to be paying into their pension from that wage, like everyone else.
What I'm not happy to do is to pay for a guaranteed pension better than any I can afford to pay for just because their job is in the public sector or allowing them to retire earlier than most private sector workers.0 -
Proportions of tax by percentage of income? That would be an interesting graphic.W1 wrote:Very good - have you got some pretty pictures for who pays the biggest proportions of tax?0 -
Frighteningly I don't think you can now, on a menial wage, expect a pension at any meaningful level. Old age is going to be fairly grim for an awful lot of people.
If you have no family network to support you, and are in the lower percentiles in terms of income, and have spent the money that you earned rather than salting it away then you are, frankly, f*cked.
The only way to ameliorate this is going to be paying more as you earn and working longer. Horrible but there it is.
- A couple of years ago I recall a survey and a frightening percentage of respondents saying that they were relying on a lottery win to support them through old age. -FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
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MaxwellBygraves wrote:rjsterry wrote:
Define 'worker'.
ETA: My! Those are up to date pictures.
The vast majority in the bottom half of the flag. Hope the pics are more current now
Yes wealth is not distributed equally, and becoming more so, but not changing public sector pensions isn't going to have any significant effect on that is it? Much better pictures this time (fewer handlebar moustaches for a start), but again how is the pay of a few FTSE100 directors directly related to public sector pensions? ETA: We are talking about ~1200 people here as many of them hold multiple directorships.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
notsoblue wrote:gtvlusso wrote:For the record; IMHO - they are wrong to strike and I do not support their action at all. I believe that it is selfish and is hurting other people financially (childcare etc etc) for purely selfish motives in a time of great uncertainty.
My own example - payfreeze and bonus freeze for last few years off an on, salaries in my industry have dropped or stayed stagnent, I am unable to recruit from 'high cost' zone - basically, I can recruit people in India and Malaysia due to cost in the UK - my own company is making 17,000 people redundant over the next 2 years. My pay has gone backwards when you look at the rate of inflation over the last few years - even with good to great performance incentives - this only attributes to a 1% or 2% rise due to business factors. My 15 years of private pension is worth f*ck all and I have to contirbute minimum of 4%. My private pension has no governmental guarentees.
I say - welcome to the real world of the private sector, for too long it has been easy for all of us. However, I think that the public sector have had it a bit too easy and are now earning and benfiting far more than the average private sector Joe. yes - they were underpaid for a long time (especially nurses) - but when payrises are fixed and not performance related, surely it makes for an easy ride?!
Today will cost me a days holiday - although I will work from home tonight to catch up, without being paid.....
So, to those muppets shopping or on the picket - you are idiots and we cannot sustain you. Learn to accept that the luxury holiday you wanted is now off the cards and knuckle down like the rest of us.
Envy and resentment
Why? Have you no more to say? Please clarify?0 -
For the record, I'm 41 years old, (reasonably) well paid and in the private sector. Amazingly I also have a final salary pension as I work for a very cash rich Swiss company and the pension pot is well into surplus. Interestingly tellingly even they have ended the system for new hires last year.
However, do I really expect to see this money in twenty five or so years? Honestly no. I fully expect it to be lost, swallowed or taxed to death one way or another.
I am busy working on second strings to my bow for old age income (one of the reasons I'm so bloody poor at the moment!).FCN 5 belt driven fixie for city bits
CAADX 105 beastie for bumpy bits
Litespeed L3 for Strava bits
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.0 -
NozzaC wrote:God I wish it was possible for all of us just to get those pensions. I really do. I'm very worried about my pension arrangements because I cannot afford to pay enough in to get a good pension. I'm looking at working until I'm 70 at this rate.
One reason I cannot afford to pay enough in is because a lot of my money is taken away from me by the government and given to other people. Some of it no doubt goes to needy people who really cannot work or have other difficulties. However some of that is to fund other people's guaranteed pensions. Why is that acceptable and fair? Why should me and my family have a harder life so some other healthy, working adult can have an easier one at my expense?
If these pensions are affordable then lets ALL of us have them - private and public. Anyone care to provide some figures that will allow this to happen and you've got my vote and everyone elses. However non of the parties can make that promise.
+1
Would the issue have been raised if the government could afford it?!
I heard an argument by a Public Sector worked, who was striking, on Jeremy Vin'es radio show (audio daily mail) - when challenged regarding the difference between private pension and publis pensions - said Public secotro worked claimed that they were going on strike to show the government that this affects everyone pension, public and private.
So, they were striking on my behalf were they......Does my company recognise a union: No. Does my company give a f*ck about them striking: No. Will my company guarentee my pension and make it the same as a Publis Sector pension: No, because it is too expensive!
Utter idiocy!0
