So where's the Public Sector Strike thread at???

tailwindhome

Or is it a Public Sector Shopping Day?

veronese68

Taking the kids swimming, then a bit of shopping. I don't work in the public sector, but they have forced me to take a day off.

SimonAH

At lunchtime I will be leaving the office to buy a couple of big tins of Quality Street and taking them to the office of my daughter's school as a thankyou to the teachers for not joining in this strike.

rick_chasey

Simon - don't be a knob.

SimonAH

Rick Chasey wrote:

Simon - don't be a knob.

Unless I am being really insensitive and missing a point massively why would doing that make me a knob? This is a very small dedicated school that took legal advice to make sure that they could stay open if the kitchen staff were on strike.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the pensions issue, it would have been enormously easy for them to have a day off for christmas shopping like (I suspect) a very large percentage of the people not at their posts today.

okgo

I've done a bit of reading, and I've concluded that they're finally feeling the pinch everyone else has been feeling for 3 years. Striking is not really the way to get us out of this mess is it.

rick_chasey

Don't go around celebrating or congratulating people for not going on strike.

There are plenty of people who the cuts properly affect, and they're taking a day less pay out to collectively bargain against a monopsonic employer.

rolf_f

SimonAH wrote:

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the pensions issue, it would have been enormously easy for them to have a day off for christmas shopping like (I suspect) a very large percentage of the people not at their posts today.

Not much of a perk losing a days pay though is it? That's what not turning up for work means.

BTW - I am public sector not on strike. I'm somewhat torn on the issue as I think both Government and Unions are making a dogs breakfast of the issue. If you came along with a tin of Quality Street to reward me for not striking, I would indeed think you were a knob. I'm not trying to be nasty but if you think that the issue is so clear cut that anyone who isn't striking is wholely against it then you are a bit of a fool and many of the teachers you want to reward will think so too.

bails87

okgo: Only just feeling the pinch? You hadn't heard about the pay freezes and job cuts then?

okgo

Rick Chasey wrote:

Don't go around celebrating or congratulating people for not going on strike.

There are plenty of people who the cuts properly affect, and they're taking a day less pay out to collectively bargain against a monopsonic employer.

=

The cuts have been properly affecting people for the last few years, finally it hits the public workers (and lets be honest, nowhere near as hard as private sector) and its strikes all round. Bore off.

I've been seeing some of the figures quoted for pensions and they are quite frankly, ridiculous, and make any private sector schemes look totally shit in comparison, and lets not forget the amount of companies out there that do not offer contributions at all.

okgo

bails87 wrote:

okgo: Only just feeling the pinch? You hadn't heard about the pay freezes and job cuts then?

Pay freezes have been common place in pvt sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

bails87

okgo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Don't go around celebrating or congratulating people for not going on strike.

There are plenty of people who the cuts properly affect, and they're taking a day less pay out to collectively bargain against a monopsonic employer.

=

The cuts have been properly affecting people for the last few years, finally it hits the public workers (and lets be honest, nowhere near as hard as private sector) and its strikes all round. Bore off.

I've been seeing some of the figures quoted for pensions and they are quite frankly, ridiculous, and make any private sector schemes look totally shoot in comparison, and lets not forget the amount of companies out there that do not offer contributions at all.

How does breaking an agreement to give public sector workers a certain level of pension make private sector pensions any better?

bails87

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo: Only just feeling the pinch? You hadn't heard about the pay freezes and job cuts then?

Pay freezes have been common place in pvt sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

Right, and pay freezes have been common place in the public sector for a couple of years now. As have job cuts.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, or supporting a view I don't hold myself. But I'm not too happy if it's all supported by misinformation and lies, whether it's deliberate or down to the person spreading it being uninformed.

rick_chasey

okgo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Don't go around celebrating or congratulating people for not going on strike.

There are plenty of people who the cuts properly affect, and they're taking a day less pay out to collectively bargain against a monopsonic employer.

=

The cuts have been properly affecting people for the last few years, finally it hits the public workers (and lets be honest, nowhere near as hard as private sector) and its strikes all round. Bore off.

I've been seeing some of the figures quoted for pensions and they are quite frankly, ridiculous, and make any private sector schemes look totally shoot in comparison, and lets not forget the amount of companies out there that do not offer contributions at all.

That's not the point.

The point is, don't be a knob by going out of your way to congratulate people for not going on strike.

okgo

bails87 wrote:

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo: Only just feeling the pinch? You hadn't heard about the pay freezes and job cuts then?

Pay freezes have been common place in pvt sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

Right, and pay freezes have been common place in the public sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

To nowhere near the same extent though I would imagine? And what do normal people do when it happens? Find another job of course...

bails87

I don't have a problem with Simonah thanking his school's staff for staying at work, TBH. I don't really like the insinuation that it's a free day off and everyone's going off to do their shopping.

rolf_f

okgo wrote:

I've been seeing some of the figures quoted for pensions and they are quite frankly, ridiculous, and make any private sector schemes look totally shoot in comparison, and lets not forget the amount of companies out there that do not offer contributions at all.

What - like the average public sector pension being £80 per week?

You are right - some of the figures quoted are ridiculous (i.e wrong). Who knows what is right for sure?

okgo

Rolf F wrote:

okgo wrote:

I've been seeing some of the figures quoted for pensions and they are quite frankly, ridiculous, and make any private sector schemes look totally shoot in comparison, and lets not forget the amount of companies out there that do not offer contributions at all.

What - like the average public sector pension being £80 per week?

You are right - some of the figures quoted are ridiculous (i.e wrong). Who knows what is right for sure?

I've read of 3.5% employee contribution and 20% employer contribution, that's from a public sector employee.. That seems a tad mad to me.

Still, I'm sure striking will sort it all out.

bails87

okgo wrote:

To nowhere near the same extent though I would imagine?

If your argument is based on your imagination then it might not be worth much.

The public sector is predicted to shrink by 710,000, or 12%.

UK unemployment is 8.3%.

okgo

bails87 wrote:

okgo wrote:

To nowhere near the same extent though I would imagine?

If your argument is based on your imagination then it might not be worth much.

The public sector is predicted to shrink by 710,000, or 12%.

UK unemployment is 8.3%.

Obviously all of those jobs are completley vital to the running of the place?

rolf_f

okgo wrote:

I've read of 3.5% employee contribution and 20% employer contribution, that's from a public sector employee.. That seems a tad mad to me.

Who knows if that is true or not - even if it is, it is nowhere near the norm. Besides (not that it is easy to know what is true or not), from my understanding the tax payer pays vastly more in tax relief on private sector pension schemes than it does in funding public sector pensions. But of course this sort of argument gets too complicated for both the Unions, the Govt and the mindless angry mob who want to drag everyone down into the pit with them.

rick_chasey

Depends what you mean by vital and what you consider 'the place' to be.

You could just have the police and army and nothing else and 'run' the place. Can't say that'd be great.

meanredspider

I don't think the gesture is to "congratulate" them but more to thank them for not striking and therefore not forcing him to have to take a day off too. Loads of my colleagues are forced to take a day off to look after kids not at school. All I can see this strike doing is harming the UK economy. Even the retail boost today might bring won't be sustained. Nor will 2 million people not being paid for the day actually help Xmas spending.

bails87

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo wrote:

To nowhere near the same extent though I would imagine?

If your argument is based on your imagination then it might not be worth much.

The public sector is predicted to shrink by 710,000, or 12%.

UK unemployment is 8.3%.

Obviously all of those jobs are completley vital to the running of the place?

NHS performance is falling already. 18 week waits are up.

But who knows? I guess we'll find out in a few years. My point was your argument, based on your imagination, that the public sector would have/is having an easy ride on the job cut/pay freeze front wasn't necessarily true.

As for harm to the economy, I'd say that soaring unemployment and a total collapse in growth due to Gov't policy is doing far more damage. If one day off work is so harmful to the economy then why did we have a bank holdiay for the Royal Wedding?

fenboy369

The teachers at my kids school put out a letter saying that their overwhelming view of the strike was that it was going to affect the children at the school, (Its a primary school btw) and as such they would not be out on strike. I applaud them for their straight thinking and level headedness.
Has anybody else been on strike? I have and its not an easy decision to make. Sometimes the withdrawl of labour is the only thing you have left.
My personal view, at the moment, not being a public sector worker and not knowing the ins and outs of it all, is that a strike is wrong. I think that a work to rule, overtime ban, or some other way of doing it would have been better.

notsoblue

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo: Only just feeling the pinch? You hadn't heard about the pay freezes and job cuts then?

Pay freezes have been common place in pvt sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

Right, and pay freezes have been common place in the public sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

To nowhere near the same extent though I would imagine? And what do normal people do when it happens? Find another job of course...

In some parts of the country public sector cuts have meant massive job losses and insecurity. Heres a map showing public sector employment rates. My guess is that as someone based in London who is well off enough to have a job in the city, you simply haven't noticed the degree to which the public sector has been feeling the pinch.

okgo

Rick Chasey wrote:

Depends what you mean by vital and what you consider 'the place' to be.

You could just have the police and army and nothing else and 'run' the place. Can't say that'd be great.

Can't say that the services in this country that we pay well over the odds for are any good though...

I've recycled this from elsewhere, because it is very much true really -

"I want the local council to sweep mud off the roads and gutters, tidy the hedges, suck the drains out and make sure litter is picked up.

I also want the roads resurfaced when they get damaged by frost and I want a good program of improvements designed to aid flow of traffic, I want affordable car parking near to work.

I want the police to operate a visual effective service that actually cuts crime down, I the courts to deal with these people effectivly so punishment is a punishment. I want the prisons to be dry and warm and provide food and training but to be a punishment.

I want public transport to be a viable alternative to cars, not just in London but all over the country, if it is to work it needs to be subsidised and run properly with times and frequency to suit the peak hours.

I want a health service that is efficient and has enough beds, doctors, nurses and surgeons, This service needs to be local, a good full hospital in every major town.

This is just for starters, at the moment we get none of the above yet we are paying for all the above many times over."

Its amazing that everyone thinks the services we have in this country are all great, and nothing needs a shake up!

okgo

notsoblue wrote:

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo wrote:

bails87 wrote:

okgo: Only just feeling the pinch? You hadn't heard about the pay freezes and job cuts then?

Pay freezes have been common place in pvt sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

Right, and pay freezes have been common place in the public sector for a few years now. As have job cuts.

To nowhere near the same extent though I would imagine? And what do normal people do when it happens? Find another job of course...

In some parts of the country public sector cuts have meant massive job losses and insecurity. Heres a map showing public sector employment rates. My guess is that as someone based in London who is well off enough to have a job in the city, you simply haven't noticed the degree to which the public sector has been feeling the pinch.

'well off enough to have a job in the city?' you know you don't buy jobs don't you...

Also, I've felt the pinch, everything is up in price, I didn't get a payrise last year, my pension was non existant, and the scheme was shite. So I moved jobs, all of the above was rectified.

I have noticed, but I can't see why the song and dance is SO great, everyone is feeling the pinch, deal with it...?

bails87

okgo: have you got any evidence that our public services are bad compared to others, or that they're bad value? The NHS has it's flaws, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than, for example, the American model, and delivers pretty good health outcomes. Some of the best in the world in fact.
http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/commonwealth_fund.html

rick_chasey

They may be the services you want, but there are others who need/want different services.

Things like social care - things like youth workers, people who look after the homeless, or perhaps Connexions, who used to help young people find work and make themselves employable.

It's easy to say "I only need this, f*ck the rest", but everyone needs different stuff.

The state must cater for EVERYONE.

Sure, if there are efficiencies to be made, make them.

If cuts must be made, they must be made. But given the monopsonic nature of state sector employment, often the only way to get 'fair' (as defined by the market, not by a sense of entitlement), is to collectively bargain.

The economics explains why collective bargaining is necessary and mutually beneficial when faced with a monopsonic employer (within reason), but collective bargaining can't work unless the threats get carried out from time to time.

bails87

My final note on this.

Public sector workers are taxpayers too. They want value for money when they pay income tax, council tax etc. DON'T treat the two like mutually exclusive groups.
If we get more for our money, then the nurse gets a quicker response from police when she's mugged, the fireman's nan gets a safer operation when she needs a hip replacement and the paramedic's disabled son gets better support.

EVERYONE uses public services to varying degrees, whether it's driving on a road with streetlights, not getting mugged due to the combined efforts of police, social workers and the education system, that stopped someone turning to a life of crime, or borrowing a book from your local library. EVERYONE pays for them too.