Ok uphill, rubbish elsewhere, solutions please!

siamon

I recently had a 9 month sedentary period due to a pathetically small injury. My surgeon blamed the fact I only did road running and ordered me to take up swimming and cycling which I now love. I am still riding everywhere at maximum attack with a massive grin but when I have calmed down a bit I intend to control my pace so I can maximise improvements and would like some training suggestions. I recently entered the 70 mile Evans Cannock Chase Sportive to gauge how I compare to other cyclists (and nearly died after 45 miles) but it revealed some weird and concerning traits. On the flat and descents I was struggling to keep up with the others, but at the first sign of an hill I flew past them and disappeared into the distance up to the next group before struggling to keep up with them until the next hill and so on. This pattern was maintained after I hit the wall. I asked my physio and she started telling me about high and low twitch but it's impossible for me to remember anything she says.

Why am I so feeble on the flat, yet apparently ok uphill?

I had my pedalling technique assessed and was hoping that they would point out a serious flaw that would double my wattage, unfortunately they said it was consistent round the circle and refused to accept I was a novice.

I am 167lbs and 6 foot, and 40. I did 27.36 miles yesterday in 1:37 (average 16.8mph) with 1658ft elevation gain, my average HR was 161 (max 179). For comparison, during the Birmingham half marathon it averaged 165 and max'ed at 190.

phreak

On the flat your speed is based mainly on your total watts, whilst on a hill it's watts/weight. So it sounds like you just need more power or a more aero position.

ut_och_cykla

Phreak probably has the answer. Let's say you cycle comfortably at 200 W. Probably quite a few people can do this and on the flat quite a few might do more for a while. Air resistance is mostly what slows you down here. On the hills everyone is till doing 200 W but now its weight and gravity that slows you down. You are relativley lighter than others and pass them. Other factors might include you running muscles being more suited to hill work and that you are in good control on hills were as others overshoot and end up having to slow down a bit.

mustol

I'm exactly the same. Only been cycling for just over 1 yr, I'm 5'11" approx 10st10lb, my general fitness is good. At the Exmoor Beast recently, I was overtaking lots of people going up the long climbs, but several of those people would then overtake me again on the flats. I know I don't yet have the power in my legs and due to a long-term back related injury (gradually getting better), I have been unable to train specifically to improve in that area - pushing hard in big gears for sustained periods aggravates the injury, whereas climbing, wheren I can switch between being in and out of the saddle is OK! However, as my injury gets better I will gradually incorporate more of these efforts into my riding and hope to see some improvements by the spring. I would say it would be well worth you incorporating some intervals into your rides e.g. 5 min intervals pushing hard in a big gear.

amaferanga

Part of it is probably due to not being used to maintaining a high power output on the flat. Its much easier to maintain a high power output uphill compared to on the flat and it takes time to train yourself to ride at the sort of Wattages you can maintain on an ascent on the flat. The answer is to ride more on the flat.

It could also be that you're going balls out up hills and therefore end up paying the price on the descent and flat bits, where as other folks are pacing their riding better.

phreak

Surely if you can maintain a high power output for 10 minutes going up a hill you can maintain it for 10 minutes on the flat? I don't really get how it's easier to maintain high power going uphill?

nhoj

amaferanga wrote:

It could also be that you're going balls out up hills and therefore end up paying the price on the descent and flat bits, where as other folks are pacing their riding better.

That would be my guess. I think newer riders tend to blast up the hills - I know I did and still enjoy doing it in training - whereas more experienced riders tend to slow down to keep a steady heart rate & power output. This would explain why the other riders in the event are slower compared to the OP on the ascents and also account for his struggling to keep up with them on the flats. The OP should compare his effort on the ascents to his effort on the flats.

Zoomer37

Regarding descents, it takes big coconuts and a good level of skill to ride flat out down a hill properly. Perhaps as your new your still holding back or braking to often. It will all come together the more you ride. I'd not think about it to much.

amaferanga

phreak wrote:

Surely if you can maintain a high power output for 10 minutes going up a hill you can maintain it for 10 minutes on the flat? I don't really get how it's easier to maintain high power going uphill?

Why would you assume that you could maintain the same power on the flat as going uphill? Would you also expect to be able to maintain the same power going down a (slight) hill? In the UK at least, flat rarely is actually flat anyway and it takes serious concentration to keep your Wattage up on even a slight downhill (even harder to do if you're not measuring the power).

phreak

That's a psychological thing though isn't it rather than a physiological thing?

inseine

Whether it's psycholigical or physiological, it's still a reality.
I think amaferanga has it right with his comments. The OP is not especially light so I don't see it as been that he's got good power to weight, more likely just gets stuck in on the hills but doesn't follow wheels so well on the flat and needs to learn how to descend. Not trying to be rude there BTW

siamon

I think the point about running muscles being more suited to hill work has some legs! I would guess it is more of a full body workout, pulling on the bars to get some leverage etc.

I would like the aero bit to be relevant, but I'm not sure I'm good enough yet. However, I do normally ride on the hoods at all times, so will try the drops!

Beautiful day in Birmingham just off out for a quick 25k. I will stay in the drops and see if I notice any difference. Full of lactic from running training yesterday, so might not see any speed improvement but will try and get a feel for it.

Many thanks for the suggestions - much appreciated.

JD_76

Zoomer37 wrote:

Regarding descents, it takes big coconuts and a good level of skill to ride flat out down a hill properly. Perhaps as your new your still holding back or braking to often. It will all come together the more you ride. I'd not think about it to much.

Deffo, grow a pair & stop thinking about what might or could happen at high speed, take control focus and go as fast as you can.

SBezza

It could be that alot of riders don't actually attack the hills, and ride up them at a pace they know they can sustain, and then keep up this level of effort downhill and on the flat.

It is so easy to go above your threshold on a hill, even in the smallest gear, it takes alot of effort to do that downhill/on the flat.

If you rode up the hills at a more sustainable pace, perhaps you wouldn't blow before the end of the event, pacing is an art in itself. It could be that after hammering up the hill, you need time to recover, and obviously those that went up at a more sustainable pace, don't need to recover and hence you seem to struggle on the flat.

If you can overtake people on the hills with ease, then there is no physical reason why you can't leave them on the flat, unless you are extremely light and have a far greater power to weight ratio

racingcondor

The give away to me is that you struggle to stay with the new group after you've caught them on the hill climb. You're hammering it up the hills and dropping back to a sustainable effort on the flat.

I'd say just ride more and enjoy yourself. As the miles come you'll gain a better perception of your limits (especially if you use a heart rate monitor), sportives are great for that, takes the boredom out of long rides (reliability rides are even better as they don't cost the earth!).

LightningTony

Hi
I am a qualified coach and am studying a degree in sports science. Also I have been cycling all my life, competitively and recreationally in one form or another. It is really hard to give an accurate concise answer to your question without more information. However here are some general facts that could apply in your case, it will be up to you to recognise the ones that feel most helpful to you.

Regarding your physio comments; our skeletal muscles are made of three main types, Type 1 (also known as slow twitch) and Type 2A and 2B (also known as fast twitch). The most important differences that we need to know about them is the energy substrate they burn, do they need oxygen to burn it, and how long they last for?

We all have all three types but two factors affect the ratio of each we have, and that affects your strengths and weaknesses on a ride.
First factor, genetic predisposition; some people have more fast twitch and others more slow twitch just because of their genes.
Second factor, training status; in its simplest form strength training (efforts lasting around 10- seconds) builds up the type 2A fibres, power training (efforts around 30 seconds to 3 mins) builds up the type 2B, and steady state endurance rides of 35 minutes to indefinite builds the type1.

You describe "attacking" which sounds like typical type 2B deployment, and I am guessing that if the hills lasted more than 3 - 4 mins you would find yourself slipping backwards slowly but surely through the bunch. The type 2A and B fibers recover very quickly which is why you can regain your attacking strength ready for the next hills, but of course you couldn't keep up the effort on the downs and flats because, as pointed out , you only get about three minutes per recharge.

If this is striking a chord with you the answer is to build up aerobic endurance by spending more time in the saddle at high power outputs, but not so high that you blow, that would be counter-productive; instead I would aim for 90 to 120 minutes at around 75 - 80% of your maximum effort (regardless of how you measure it), and feel free to throw in some sprints and power efforts at regular intervals throughout your ride, just allow an easing off after each one to recover. ie classic interval training built into your endurance rides.

However there is another factor which some of the other posts have alluded to and it concerns what we sport scientists call neuro-muscular endurance. Put simply, every time we want a skeletal muscle to move the brain fires off a signal to the motor unit, which is effectively the whole length of muscle fibre governed by that brain signal, and tells it how to contract, how quickly and for how long and strong. Research has shown that in the first phases of training the greatest training benefits arise from the improvements in neuro-muscular endurance, you get better at the technique!
Since cycling requires dozens of these brain signals to be firing off in a highly co-ordinated pattern; the ankling motion around top and bottom dead centres, the power strokes on the down and up pedal action, the core stability though the abdomen and trunk, the synchronisation of the arm muscles and even glutes (through the saddle) affecting the rhythmic dynamic balance of the bike, wow, quite a lot to perfect! It is possible that a strong attacking runner that can exhibit power over hills has not developed a smooth and efficient pedalling action, which will result in others out-pedalling him on otherwise easy sections.
If this is striking a chord with you the answer is to relax and enjoy, as posted several times, and whilst doing so concentrate on the pedalling action and choice of gears, aim for easy cadence of 90 to 110 rpm and get good at that, don't even need to measure your heartrate now, that may subconciously push you harder and turn the ride into a different training benefit at the expense of the required training benefit. If you do want some guidance on effort; in my experience around 60 to 65% of max does not require too much concentration and you should be able to amble along and improve technique. As you start to increase effort the concentration required to maintain the effort can detract fropm your riding style, especially in the early days. It is much better to establish good core techniques early in the training before one ends up getting better at poor technique!

Hope this helps. If you want more like this I upload occasional training articles on my site
http://www.tonyharveytraining.com

or you could always book me for some coaching!
Stay safe and above all enjoy

siamon

Tony, many thanks for the comprehensive and useful information. Personally, I much prefer the coaching to conditioning approach, my running had hit a ceiling, then with a bit a advice (and a big reduction in effort) my performance increased incredibly quickly. I don't want to make the same mistake cycling, shame you are not a bit closer!

Have sent you a PM.

OfficerDigby

Are you always out of saddle climbing?
Some one I know from running background (obviously fit). But gets out of saddle cranks it on the hill . But on flat can't get going so fast/efficiently. In fact ends up standing up often on flat to accelerate/maintain speed.

Just a learning process to get power out in racing position. Possibly.