Chain stretch?

samg123

I bought this bike, described as the gears 'running perfect'- when I recieved it I discovered that what I think is chain stretch has caused there to be so much play in the chain that the rear derailleur kicks back and causes the chain to rub over the upper cog on the derailleur- I hope you can see what I mean by the picture.

My question is, is this caused by chain stretch and therefore a sympton of a worn out drivetrain?

If this was occuring on your bike, would you describe it as 'running perfectly'?

Im currently involved in a claim against this guy on Ebay, so I'm basically checking that my argument stands up.


I'll be back soon with photos of the corroding crown of the fork (The seller maintains that aluminium cannot corrode)...

CYCLESPORT1

Chains don't stretch THAT much Get a new chain put on, see what it's like then. Still could have been a bargin, what did you pay :?:

Chrissz

Is that on the small or large chainring?

Will Nunez

That may not be chain stretch. it could be that the chain wasnt fitted properly and has too many links in it. If its stretched that much then i would expect to see the cogs looking very scallopped in shape. How worn are the chain rings

Will Nunez

Sorry wrong thread

rubbernekker

That is not chain stretch, the chain is a fraction too long(2 links perhaps). It's a bit tenuous to be actioning a claim against someone over it. Only noticeable in the small chainring small sprockets, which you shouldn't be in anyway.

samg123

Okay, so in that instance the chain is too long.
Sticking with chain stretch for a moment, the attatched picture shows the extent to which I can pull the chain off the front of the big ring- is that something to be concerned about?

Also included are pictures of the fork- I've been told it's corroding, but the seller insists that it's just the paint coming off...

Finally, does the bottom bracket look oversized to anyone else? When in the lowest gear, the chain seems very crossed.

samg123

I paid £270 for it, and have been quoted £250-300 to get it up to a rideable standard...

The action isn't only about the chain length- in fact that's the least of my worries: I didn't even include it in my claim!
There are so many issues with this bike as to make it nigh-on unrideable...

de_sisti

samg123 wrote:

Also included are pictures of the fork- I've been told it's corroding, but the seller insists that it's just the paint coming off...

That looks like the paint is coming off to me. When you were looking for a bike, did you know what to look out for?
Remember, a 2nd hand bike at a particular low price, it ain't going to look pristine.

samg123

I wasn't expecting it to be pristine, that's why I took it for a service. However, I was expecting it to be in good condition, with brakes and gears working perfect, as it said in the description. The mechanic identified £300 worth of issues with it, including corrosion of the front fork...

Will Nunez

Id continue with claim. For £270 id expect a lot better. is it a road bike? What model is it? I can see its specialised

samg123

It's a 2008 Specialized Allez- it was on Ebay, so I couldn't see the extent of the damage to it- it's been very poorly maintained- it's corroding around the valves on the rims of the wheels as well, something which has been covered with black tape to hide it.

centimani

Looks to me like its been used extensively in the winter.
Are they carbon forks or all alloy ? My Bianchi alu carbon forks went a little like that after 1 winters light use. Crud gets in the brakenut recess and sits there, causing light corrosion, then lifting the paint. If they're all alloy, you could clean and paint it. I did with my alu carbon, it halted the corrosion and TBF you could hardly see it afterwards.

BB ? My square taper 2006 (i think) Bianchi looked kinda like that, there was a lot of axle on show, but thats how it came as new.
As suggested, it does look like the chain is too long. have you measured it for wear ? If its not worn that much, it indicates the chainrings fairly worn (in the pic where you've lifted it off the rings).

Here's how i'd look at it (but i do all my own maintenance).
New chain, say £15
New chainrings, say £30
Spot of paint on the forks...a clean of the rims with Tcut or similar to hopefully get the corrosion off round the valve...
I don't know what else is wrong of course...but based on what youve said so far, £50 worth of parts and some elbow grease.
I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, you must be gutted. We all hope for a bargain, but i always advise people buying relatively expensive bikes, its hard from a picture to detect wear in the transmission that could easy cost £100 to put right before you even start,. Chain, cassette and chainrings are'nt far off that.

That said, was it shipped to you ?...i think i'd be very dissapointed with his apparent description, very dissapointed. I think i'd try to dispute him as well.

samg123

This is the description of the bike on Ebay:
"Much loved Specialized Allez.
Top Tube measures 58cm centre to centre. Size large to suit somebody around 6ft.

The bike is in good condition and is ready to roll. Tyres pumped up, breaks and gears working perfect.

Carbon Fork
16 speed.

Any questions please ask.

I will happily box the bike up if you would like to arrange a courrier to collect.

Payment through Paypal at the end of the auction please.

Thanks"

This is the letter from the mechanic who looked it over:

"The aluminium fork crown is corroded; this corrosion is proceeding towards the bond. The headset is in need of urgent replacement.
Both hubs are in need of a rebuild, the rear being worse than the front requiring new bearings.
The drive train is worn to the point of being dangerous, both the chain and cassette are worn beyond the rocommended point of replacement and it is my opinion that the big ring will not hold the chain under load.
The rear brake calliper fitted is a long drop wear as the frame requires a short drop; this means the pads are unable to reach the rim and therefore operate effectively.
The bicycle, althouh aesthetically very clean is in my opinion unsafe to ride in its current state and would in my estimation cost around £250 to £300 to bring to a safe, functional standard."

keef66

You should get your money back then. Certainly not as described.

samg123

I'm a bit worried I may be done on a technicality- the item's official description was 'pick up only', but as you can see in the description there was an option for a courier to pick it up.

I can't believe I have been quite so stupid- I'm certainly never buying bikes online again without going over them thouroughly in person beforehand!
The worst thing is I'm a student and can afford neither a new bike nor the necessary repairs- I'm left with nothing to ride.

Let this be a cautionary tale to anyone else planning to buy without looking first!

keef66

Pick up only isn't part of the description, and he hasn't got a leg to stand on unless he's claiming the courier turned it from a well oiled machine into a wreck.

amaferanga

It could be sorted out for much less than the £250 quoted by the mechanic by picking up used parts and doing the work yourself (or finding a mate that is willing to do it for you for a beer token).

samg123

Yeah I know- I'm considering that as an option... My brother's pretty proficient with bike maintainance, it's just a matter of picking up the parts.

I'm relatively new to this so some basic questions first:
1) are most forks likely to be okay to replace the corroding one? Or do they vary in compatability?
2) Is changing the headset likely to be above my (low) ability?
3) Can I steal the relatively new chainring from my other bike to replace the big ring with? I think it's about 50t
4) How hard is it to rebuild a hub? If the answer is too hard, what kind of price am I looking at to get a mechanic to do it? 1 hours labour?

samg123

Also, the guy has already offered to refund £50- should I take this and drop the case?

centimani

amaferanga wrote:

It could be sorted out for much less than the £250 quoted by the mechanic by picking up used parts and doing the work yourself (or finding a mate that is willing to do it for you for a beer token).

This is where i was coming from,£300 is possibly a fair price for your LBS to do it all, but 99% of it is quite do-able yourself (even better if you have a friend that'll help out) but it's still a bitter pill to swallow..
New chainrings..(i assume its a compact)..£30 (rough prices)
New chain...£15
New cassette...maybe £20
New caliper...maybe £15.
New headset..maybe £20
The fork...thats a toughie...mine was perfactly ok after touching up, your does look quite bad.

Many of those parts you may be able to get a bit cheaper off ebay, but ebays not that cheap anymore.

So you're looking at £70 for parts excluding the forks...and some elbow grease.

Rock and a hard place springs to mind...

rolf_f

Did the offer of £50 come via Email through Ebay? If so, then Ebay have a record of acknowledgement that the bike wasn't as described.

£50 is nothing - would you be happy with the bike if it had cost less than £50 in the original auction with the same description and same defects not matching that description?

Ebay are likely to side with you on this - personally I'd fight it but it does depend on how urgent you need a bike. You should foward the mechanics assessment to Ebay as well.

samg123

Yeah it was messaged through ebay.

The problem is, according to Ebay experts (or the people who frequent the discussion boards at least) because I arranged a courier to pick it up, I've forfeited my rights to a not-as-described claim: basically I should've noticed when I picked it up.

at £50 less? I still think I'd have been disappointed, but more for the principle of the bike not matching the description rather than the price.

The other thing is that the case can take ages to resolve and I simply can't do without a bike for that long: I'm getting withdrawal symptoms from lack of lycra...

samg123

Right, I've gone for the £50- i'm just desperate to get on the road...
So this thread will now be transformed into my many questions for doing up the bike, first and foremost:
Will any 1 1/8 fork fit? or do they vary by manufacturers in annoying and subtle ways?

Also, the headset is a branded Specialized part that I can't seem to get hold of: there are a couple of threads that tell me some Cane Creek ones might work: Can anyone shed some light on this? Threads here:
viewtopic.php?p=17144226
http://road.cc/content/forum/40668-spec ... 09-headset

also, is 39/50 okay for the chainrings? I'm in quite a hilly area.... (paired with a 12 - 26 cassette)

Finally, my mechanic said the wheel hubs need rebuilding, with one needing new bearings. Am I likely to have the skills/ tools to do this?

keef66

I'd whip the fork out and clean up the alloy crown first. Wire brush the corrosion back to bare metal (it will only be a thin surface layer) Just don't go bonkers and attack the carbon fork legs. Then a layer of etch primer followed by a couple of coats of paint.

Headset in an Allez I know nothing about, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a cheaper option than a Specialized part

Allez wheel bearings I'm also unfamiliar with. If they are cup and cone bearings all you need are some cone spanners, a couple of packs of ball bearings and some grease. Pennies.

If they are cartridge bearings you just replace the whole sealed bearing on each side (they look like large steel polo mints). Little bit dearer, the trick is getting the correct bearings, and some can be a bit of a faff to get out.

I would just fit a new chain (make sure you get it the correct length!) and see how the cassette and chainrings behave.

You can pick up a pair of brand new Tiagra brake calipers on Ebay for £25.

What you really need is access to somebody with a bit of knowhow and a few tools. Might be worth asking your nearest cycling club? You say you're a student; is there a student cycling club? Just a thought....

rolf_f

39 plus 26 is pretty tough gearing for a hilly area. I use 34 -25 normally for hilly Yorkshire but have a 13 - 29 cassette for tougher rides or when I'm feeling pathetic! I'd be inclined to get a 28 cassette which I think is the maximum you can go with a Shimano short cage rear mech (28 may work out to be the correct size for your current chain!).

If the hubs themselves are OK, then you should be OK. I think the mechanics words are a bit odd - he says that they need rebuilding and that the rear is worse requiring new bearings. I suppose it depends on what you describe as rebuilding but replacing the bearings (if the wheels are cup and cone) isn't any different to simply cleaning and regreasing the hub - the bearings have to come out anyway!

Your £50 will pay for a starter toolkit (plenty available - usually about £45 but ALdi occasionally do them for £25 but you'd have to wait til they do a cycle kit sale and hope the toolkit is included) - that will have the cone spanners which are all you need for this job plus the chain tool that you'll need to shorten the new chain to the correct length. It will also have the Shimano cassette tool and chainwhip that you need to replace the worn cassette.

keef66

Tiagra rear caliper £15 at Chain Reaction ATM.

samg123

Thanks for the heads up re. the rear calliper.

Will I be able to tell if the corrosion is too far down to save the fork? I don't really trust myself making a decision that might come back to bite me on a descent....

Was thinking of going with this for the cassette: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... odelID=387 What range would you suggest?
Also, if I go with say 34/50 chainrings, will I need an alpine rather than standard shifter?

You're all very very helpful

samg123

Yeahh- I'm in the uni club and I already have a chainwhip lying around somewhere.
Is removing the fork just a matter of taking the stem and top ball bearings off and then pulling it out?

keef66

Take the top cap off, then undo the 2 pinch bolts on the stem and remove that. Fork should just drop out of the frame. Might need a gentle tap if theres muck / corrosion. Retrieve the headset bearing components top and bottom. Note which way round they go and in which order; label them for future reference, photos if possible. It may be possible to identify the bearings from the markings on them.

Will Nunez

samg. Dependson the hubs. Also you may end up spending a fair amount on toolsbut you will get use out of them.

Im relatively new to bikemaintenance. But ive done the following using haynes bike bookand sheldon brown:
Cup and cone hub rebuild. Required new cone spanners. First one took ages to get right. Have done 3 wheelssince with relative ease. Have even restored a cup and conde bottombracket.
Changing headset, done this twice now. Just make sure you note the porder you took things off!!!
Chainrings...its allabout BCD (look it up on sheldonbrown.com) the spacing of the ring fixings. If they are the same for the chainring then they are compatable you dont necessary need same teeth (eg 52 or 50 but note it will affect your gear rations)

Im by no means ahandy man soall the jobs you have listed should be withinmost peoples grasp. There areloads of you tubes on this stuff as well