Poppies

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

The British Army is not a representation or a symbol of British Politics. By extension neither is the Poppy.

The Poppy does not represent politics, a political party or a political movement. The Poppy has nothing to do with British Politics, it has everything to do with British nationalism, which shouldn't and isn't banned by International Football. .

Sorry DDD. That's makes no sense.

tailwindhome

rjsterry wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

If you believe it's worn as a symbol of remembrance of fallen soldiers then you must accept that it's a symbol of rememberance for 'our' soldiers not 'their' soldiers. That makes it political. That isn't to say that is a bad thing.....it's just the reality.

Why? Are people really so blinkered that they can't extend their respect to 'their' soldiers as well? Obviously that's a lot easier to say about past wars than current conflicts, and particularly if it's not your son/husband who hasn't come back alive, but still.

Yes I do think people are 'that' blinkered. Davmaggs example people is pretty good example

davmaggs wrote:

Ok DDD, let's try another way of looking at this.

If the Russians decide that they want their dead/injured servicemen recognised on their arm and they play against Georgia (whom they invaded fairly recently and took those casualties) then do you think that the Georgians will be happy with a military remembrance being displayed?

rjsterry

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

If you believe it's worn as a symbol of remembrance of fallen soldiers then you must accept that it's a symbol of rememberance for 'our' soldiers not 'their' soldiers. That makes it political. That isn't to say that is a bad thing.....it's just the reality.

Why? Are people really so blinkered that they can't extend their respect to 'their' soldiers as well? Obviously that's a lot easier to say about past wars than current conflicts, and particularly if it's not your son/husband who hasn't come back alive, but still.

Yes I do think people are 'that' blinkered. Davmaggs example people is pretty good example

davmaggs wrote:

Ok DDD, let's try another way of looking at this.

If the Russians decide that they want their dead/injured servicemen recognised on their arm and they play against Georgia (whom they invaded fairly recently and took those casualties) then do you think that the Georgians will be happy with a military remembrance being displayed?

Fair point, although I think the poppy as a symbol has a long enough history that it can't be perverted into a deliberately provocative symbol as easily. The odd thing is that (I understand) they were always going to have a minute's silence to mark Armistice Day; it seems odd to allow one, but not the other.

DonDaddyD

Should we ban the minutes silence and the wearing of black armbands?

The Rookie

DonDaddyD wrote:

The Swastika (to channel Godwin) a symbol of the Nazi party, political.

Therein lies the rub, in India the Swastik is still used as a good luck charm and is entirely a-political, so it very much depends on your perception, I have a photo on my phone of one daubed on the boonet of a car during a 'giving' week,it's also very common to see them on commercial vehicles (given their accident with mortalities rate they go for all the help they can get!)

Simon

Clever Pun

JZed wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

being cynical, I got the impression it was to mask over the John Terry's a racist tw@t issue

Off topic but I can't help a little rendition of John Terry's Ma song everytime someone mentions him....

She loves the scouse Co<k

FACT

DonDaddyD

What did John Terry's Mum do?

Clever Pun

DonDaddyD wrote:

The Swastika (to channel Godwin) a symbol of the Nazi party, political.

Really disagree with this, it's a peace symbol significantly used until the Nazi's tweaked it and used it for themselves possibly in line with their deluded sense of right

there's a lot of earlier hindu/buddism* symbolism that is based on that

*I think it's that, though not 100%

DonDaddyD

Clever Pun wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The Swastika (to channel Godwin) a symbol of the Nazi party, political.

Really disagree with this, it's a peace symbol significantly used until the Nazi's tweaked it and used it for themselves possibly in line with their deluded sense of right

there's a lot of earlier hindu/buddism* symbolism that is based on that

*I think it's that, though not 100%

Yes, you've summed up loosely the history of the Swastika. In the modern World most would associate it with the Nazi party. = Political Party/Political symbol.

I think most associate the poppy with fallen soldiers, which isn't political.

Would you feel safe walking around with a massive swastika on your t-shirt in London claiming it was a peace symbol?

jzed

DonDaddyD wrote:

What did John Terry's Mum do?

Lets just say Terry isn't a fan of Carraghers Uncle and Cousin, and if you mention a motorhome and the 2006 worldcup to him he might get a little agitated.

rick_chasey

DonDaddyD wrote:

The British Army is not a representation or a symbol of British Politics.

Am I the only one who's gonna call him up on this?

I haven't untill now since I'm at a loss on where to start.

In a sense you're literally right. The army isn't a representation of a symbol of British politics, since it is very much part of British politics. It IS British politics.

The army couldn't be more political. It is the militarised side of British politics. Sure, the chaps involved don't have a say about where they go. That's not what you're saying though.

DonDaddyD

Both Carragher's Uncle and cousin nailed the dudes Mum?

I don't know what is worse, hopefully Carraghers Uncle and Cousin weren't Father and Son going at it at the same time?

Seriously what is worse,

Father and Son or Uncle and Nephew nailing the same Woman. Or. The Woman willing to take it off Father/son or Uncle/nephew at the time?

Stone Glider

The poppy has a political significance in China. Call me 'Dave' and his little friend Willie had a spot of bother a couple of weeks ago on a visit. They were told (asked?) to take off the poppies the party were wearing to avoid giving offence.

Sorry DDD, everything is 'political', including poppies and the British Army.

DonDaddyD

If they have a political meaning, which they seem to. Even if the significance is overlooked or not seen by some here (I.e. me). Then it doesn't have a place on the football pitch as those are the rules.

king_jeffers

DonDaddyD wrote:

It is an internationally recognised symbol of remembrance for fallen soldiers.

Totally agree, all this talk about it being a political symbol is complete nonsense. Also the British Legion do a fantastic job, its not about agreeing with going to war its about remembering the dead.

Another case of political correctness gone mad. Hopefully if this escalates any further yellow bears, Bob Geldof and Lenny Henry will also be banned

NGale

The biggest thing that irritates me about the whole Poppy thing (and has done for years) is the whole thing of YOU MUST WEAR A POPPY or you arn't seen as being in the moral right or supporting the troops.

I have been a member of the RBL since I was 18 and I give regularly to the cause (as well as to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines Charity and the Royal Marines Charitable Trust Fund) but I don't and won't wear a poppy. I don't see why not wearing a poppy should question anyones support, but for some reason it does.

rhext

I don't think it's a political symbol at all: and I think the fact that it's becoming an issue now is a reflection of the fact that we're seeing a constant stream of injured and dead coming back from a front line that few of us really understand the need for.

The 'political' discussion is whether we should be fighting these wars in the first place. But to me, giving and showing support for the people who return from them in need of help isn't a political statement, it's a moral imperative.

Clever Pun

DonDaddyD wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The Swastika (to channel Godwin) a symbol of the Nazi party, political.

Really disagree with this, it's a peace symbol significantly used until the Nazi's tweaked it and used it for themselves possibly in line with their deluded sense of right

there's a lot of earlier hindu/buddism* symbolism that is based on that

*I think it's that, though not 100%

Yes, you've summed up loosely the history of the Swastika. In the modern World most would associate it with the Nazi party. = Political Party/Political symbol.

I think most associate the poppy with fallen soldiers, which isn't political.

Would you feel safe walking around with a massive swastika on your t-shirt in London claiming it was a peace symbol?

I know a lot of people with them tattooed on as part of patterns I've avoided such designs wary of the blind ignorance of most people

It could work on a tshirt but associated imagery would need to be there as would the points on the end, but yes it would probably still attract the wrong kind of attention.

The poppy represented anti german and their allies didn't it, 1st world war so yes it's political (most things are)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFe1nPzQxIQ&feature=fvst
takes a little while to get there...

MonkeyMonster

wait a second... are we saying in a forum people might have differing personal opinions but the great masses of people out there are actually deciding what is what?!

it's disthpicable

DonDaddyD

Connotations, denotations again.

The Swastika in modern media was a symbol used by Hitler's Nazi party, it is still used by some fascist circles. The most common assumption for the symbol, today, is with Hitler's Nazi party. Along with the letter 'SS' it is arguably the most iconic symbol of that political party.

I'm not seeing the same direct link with the Poppy. The Poppy has always been used as a symbol of remembrance for fallen soldiers. Not the wars they fought in or the reason for the wars but the fact that people fought and died. Lives were lost and should be remembered. I'm not seeing that as a political agenda.

If people want to '6 degrees of seperation' its use in the UK I can't argue that. I think it's a bit much but I can't dispute that. But the Poppy is not a direct symbol of any political party or political movement.

It is used to honor the dead.

Clever Pun

honour the dead fallen against germany... and some other wars. Seems to be the current wording, I'm, paraphrasing of course

that's why if england wearing poppies were to play germany it would more than likely create a political mess hence why fifa aren't touching it with a sh1tty stick (they could just make sure that particular fixture doesn't happen at such a time, but no one's seemed to have mentioned that yet)

rjsterry

Clever Pun wrote:

honour the dead fallen against germany... and some other wars. Seems to be the current wording, I'm, paraphrasing of course

that's why if england wearing poppies were to play germany it would more than likely create a political mess hence why fifa aren't touching it with a sh1tty stick (they could just make sure that particular fixture doesn't happen at such a time, but no one's seemed to have mentioned that yet)

I think Germany have said they would support the wearing of poppies.

DonDaddyD

I get what your saying and I think a problem could arise. I don't see the problem as a political one but a problem nonetheless. Germany, culturally, has all but erased 1939 - 45 from history. They've moved on, so has their football. England, somewhat culturally, thrives on it. Too many links are made between the war and football and why someones Granddad shooting another man's Granddad is relevant I do not know.

I don't think the issue is political but I do see an issue. I don't think the Poppy is a political symbol an I don't think the Poppy represents this problem at all but it could compound on it.

If England were to play a Arab Country on 9th September or the 11th September, should they not wear black armbands?

bicyclepirate

Rick Chasey wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The British Army is not a representation or a symbol of British Politics.

Am I the only one who's gonna call him up on this?

I haven't untill now since I'm at a loss on where to start.

In a sense you're literally right. The army isn't a representation of a symbol of British politics, since it is very much part of British politics. It IS British politics.

This is a really good point. The British armed forces are the ultimate expression of our politics, any effort to divorce the two is not just pointless, its stupid. Wrt poppies thanks to the sacrifice made by those that have gone before we live in a free country. make your own choice.

HebdenBiker

Compared to other threads on other forums on the same topic, this is a very civilized debate and does all the contributors credit.

This very minute, I've seen a item on the Channel 4 news saying that a group called "Muslims Against Crusades" has been banned, in order to prevent them from disrupting remembrance parades on Sunday. One of this group's tactics was to burn poppies.

This raises a few points:

1. Poppies are clearly political symbols to some. In the case above, symbols of military aggression.
2. There is an overwhelming orthodoxy that says our (yes, our, not their) war dead must be commemorated, even to the extent that the free speech of others must be curtailed.
3. On Sunday, some Muslim demonstrators will chant and wave banners by the side of the road, during a remembrance ceremony somewhere. For doing so, they will be arrested by the police and taken away and put in cells, then prosecuted in a court of law. Is this right?

tailwindhome

Say (for talk sake) that the Argentinian Legion sold daffodils to raise money for their veterans and to commemorate their dead

Let's say that a England v Argentina friendly falls on April 2 (Malvenas Day)

Are those who say that the Poppy is non political OK with the Argentinian team wearing the Daffodil on their shirts?



(Daffodil's are made up....Malvenas day is real)

HebdenBiker

TailWindHome wrote:

Say (for talk sake) that the Argentinian Legion sold daffodils to raise money for their veterans and to commemorate their dead

Let's say that a England v Argentina friendly falls on April 2 (Malvenas Day)

Are those who say that the Poppy is non political OK with the Argentinian team wearing the Daffodil on their shirts?



(Daffodil's are made up....Malvenas day is real)

I have no problem with Argentinians commemorating their war dead. I have no problem with Iraqis, Afghans, Germans, Italians, Japanese or indeed the French commemorating their citizens killed in conflicts with the UK. Furthermore, I have no problem with private citizens of those countries choosing to disengage from public acts of remembrance. It is their choice.

I have no opinion on what symbols footballers should or should not wear. I would not be offended in the slightest if Argentina chose to wear remembrance symbols in a match against England. What I find mildly amusing is England's insitence on wearing poppies, when no other nation seems to feel the need to display similar insignia, ever. Other posters are right - it is becoming a social requirement to wear a public symbol of remembrance. What if any of the England team did not want to wear a poppy on their kit? It seems like they have no choice.

Initialised

If Heroin wasn't illegal the Taliban wouldn't have an income, there'd be no war in Afganistan, my brother wouldn't be on crutches after tripping an IUD.

Not forget the living while we remember the dead.

snooks

Clever Pun wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The Swastika (to channel Godwin) a symbol of the Nazi party, political.

Really disagree with this, it's a peace symbol significantly used until the Nazi's tweaked it and used it for themselves possibly in line with their deluded sense of right

there's a lot of earlier hindu/buddism* symbolism that is based on that

*I think it's that, though not 100%

IIRC on a buddha (well the chuffing big one in Hong Kong) the "swastika" the "arms/fins" of the go in the opposite direction to the Nazi swastika

As for poppies, I donate but I don't wear one, they usually fall off and I don't need to pin on a symbol to shown I've donated to charity

cyclingprop

FIFA banning poppies? Much less controversial to ban football isn't it? After all, the only important sports are cycling and rugby...

(just saying....!)