AntiCuts Demo - 9 Nov

W1

notsoblue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, I'll ask again, why should a legitimate protester have their rights trampled on if some numpty standing next to them hits a policeman?

W1 doesn't give a shoot about the other protesters.

I give more of a shoot about people not involved in the protest at all, but who have to deal with the consequences.

rick_chasey

W1 - so far you'll be pleased then.

Haven't read or heard of any damage to property/buildings.

W1

Rick Chasey wrote:

Apparently, people at the protest are (predictably) unhappy with heavy handed use of plain clothed police arresting people.

^ I remember being taught at school how that was use of use of plainclothed officers during demonstrations was an example to give for signs of a police state > and we were shown pictures and videos from GDR protests.

*sighs*

What's the point of having a democracy, if this is what it's like?


I need to move country. Now, to persuade my girlfriend...

We have democracy - you remember the people "we" voted into power? Well they voted for tuition fees. That is democracy in action, and does (and should) carry far more weight than a couple of thousand students who haven't got a clue. All you see in the quotes from them is about the evil "bankers" and how they can't afford to go to university - both great examples of collossal ignorance.

jzed

Looks over to Greece and Italy. Looks back at the UK - its not all bad. Goes back to work. Wonders whether protesters will be gone by 7 (surely they'll be down the pub - now theres an idea).

W1

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

W1 wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Mad Roadie wrote:

bring out the watercannon on the lot of them - the world is in crisis, this just makes it worse

Guess that's what BR should have done at everyone who moaned at the new layout then eh?

They have the right to protest just as much as you do - disagree by all means, but it is their right.

You're not the first to mention this "right" but I've quoted your post as it's the most recent.

The right to protest goes hand in hand with the responsibility not to engage in mindless thuggery and violence as part of a protest. If a protest cannot go ahead without an element of the protestors using vandalism and violence then the "right" to protest should be curtailed. If that effects innocent protestors, then they ought to attend to the elements within their own groups to ensure that such behaviour doesn't occur. In fact, the innocent and genuine protestors should be as angry with those who seek to disrupt the protest as they seem to be with the police, who have an obligation to protect the public and should do so over and above any "right" to protest.

Why do you put the word right in quote marks? The right to an opinion and free speech should be the cornerstone of any democratic society. For me and for you, for everyone.

The vast majority of peaceful protesters are there to show their dissatisfaction at tuition fees, the recent government white paper on higher education and the cuts. What are they supposed to do, just go away because they have a different opinion to yours?

This is too important just to 'silence', it needs to go ahead and peoples voices need to be heard. Instead of opting to shoot them, which I think is outrageous, why not address their concerns? Give them a reason to not be angry? Protesting is a valuable, fundamental right.

I put it in quotes to distinguish "rights" from "responsibilities". They go hand in hand, and responsibilities are just as much a cornerstone of any democratic society as rights and freedoms are.

I have no problem with protests. or people holding a different opinion to me. I have a problem with the huge police presence required to man some protests. I am yet to be convinced that those organising these protests are willing to address the issue of violence and vandalism that accompanies some protests, which is not acceptable.

W1

Rick Chasey wrote:

W1 - so far you'll be pleased then.

Haven't read or heard of any damage to property/buildings.

With 4,000 coppers, I'm not surprised.

I wonder if they'd need that many policemen (and the associated cost) for a Woman's Institute protest?

MaxwellBygraves

W1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Apparently, people at the protest are (predictably) unhappy with heavy handed use of plain clothed police arresting people.

^ I remember being taught at school how that was use of use of plainclothed officers during demonstrations was an example to give for signs of a police state > and we were shown pictures and videos from GDR protests.

*sighs*

What's the point of having a democracy, if this is what it's like?


I need to move country. Now, to persuade my girlfriend...

We have democracy - you remember the people "we" voted into power? Well they voted for tuition fees. That is democracy in action, and does (and should) carry far more weight than a couple of thousand students who haven't got a clue. All you see in the quotes from them is about the evil "bankers" and how they can't afford to go to university - both great examples of collossal ignorance.

Please explain this 'collossal' ignorance...

rick_chasey

I'm bored now.

Kept me entertained today!

But I really do want to move country. Anyone got any suggestions on how to persuade the girlfriend? It was tough enough getting her to London...

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm bored now.

Kept me entertained today!

But I really do want to move country. Anyone got any suggestions on how to persuade the girlfriend? It was tough enough getting her to London...

May I ask why you want to move? I mean things have been better, but I don't think that's confined to the UK.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm bored now.

Kept me entertained today!

But I really do want to move country. Anyone got any suggestions on how to persuade the girlfriend? It was tough enough getting her to London...

May I ask why you want to move?

I'm not especially happy here.

I see people I know and how they live in Holland, and, given my background, I just seem to feel more comfortable over there. I just feel I get it, and people get me more there.

More practically, most commutes in Holland are shorter, the work culture seems to suit me better. I'm slightly highly strung, and generally the way Holland does life would ease that. The way they socialise and drink even doesn't make me feel uncomfortable like it does here.

England always feels extreme. This is a good example. Protest ostensibly about cuts, immediately 4,000 police officers, riot police, helicopters. Want to go to my local football club? It'll immediately be £40-50 for a match and on a week day, probably the champions league.

The only thing I can think I would genuinely miss would be the food variety and restaurants, but even then, that's only really exclusive to London. Even my mates who I assumed would end up in London have all moved out of the country bar two.

It all makes more sense to me on the continent.

Clever Pun

Rick Chasey wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

in answer to your final question: they are both legitimate protesters until the punch is thrown(provoked or not) then the whole group will be punished (unless the offender is brought forward which is what W1 is alluding too)... not unlike being at school

That's the bit I ultimately disagree with.

You'd think / hope that the police would have a finger on people who cause this kind of trouble - rather like they do on football hooligans.

Then their presence can be avoided, and there would be less hassle, so less police, etc.

what about first time offender who gets caught up in the moment or is just a bit stupid?

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm bored now.

Kept me entertained today!

But I really do want to move country. Anyone got any suggestions on how to persuade the girlfriend? It was tough enough getting her to London...

May I ask why you want to move?

I'm not especially happy here.

I see people I know and how they live in Holland, and, given my background, I just seem to feel more comfortable over there. I just feel I get it, and people get me more there.

More practically, most commutes in Holland are shorter, the work culture seems to suit me better. I'm slightly highly strung, and generally the way Holland does life would ease that. The way they socialise and drink even doesn't make me feel uncomfortable like it does here.

England always feels extreme. This is a good example. Protest ostensibly about cuts, immediately 4,000 police officers, riot police, helicopters. Want to go to my local football club? It'll immediately be £40-50 for a match and on a week day, probably the champions league.

The only thing I can think I would genuinely miss would be the food variety and restaurants, but even then, that's only really exclusive to London. Even my mates who I assumed would end up in London have all moved out of the country bar two.

It all makes more sense to me on the continent.

Mind you, you do work in some sort of throwback to the worst excesses of the '80s. Only a very small part of London is like that. The rest of it and other cities are far more relaxed.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Mind you, you do work in some sort of throwback to the worst excesses of the '80s. Only a very small part of London is like that. The rest of it and other cities are far more relaxed.

Hah true. I was brought up in Cambridge though > which is basically a small Fenland town with quite a few smart people and a few nice buildings in the centre, and studied in Sheffield. Only been in London for the past 1½years.

Worked small stints in quite a few offices, dotted around the place.

Of course I haven't worked in Holland. It's more than that though.

Clever Pun

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mind you, you do work in some sort of throwback to the worst excesses of the '80s. Only a very small part of London is like that. The rest of it and other cities are far more relaxed.

Hah true. I was brought up in Cambridge though > which is basically a small Fenland town with quite a few smart people and a few nice buildings in the centre, and studied in Sheffield. Only been in London for the past 1½years.

Worked small stints in quite a few offices, dotted around the place.

Of course I haven't worked in Holland. It's more than that though.

just watch videos of Schteve Mclaren when he was over there and smoke at home... you'll be right as rain

oh and shorter commute??? MTFU

rick_chasey

Clever Pun wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Mind you, you do work in some sort of throwback to the worst excesses of the '80s. Only a very small part of London is like that. The rest of it and other cities are far more relaxed.

Hah true. I was brought up in Cambridge though > which is basically a small Fenland town with quite a few smart people and a few nice buildings in the centre, and studied in Sheffield. Only been in London for the past 1½years.

Worked small stints in quite a few offices, dotted around the place.

Of course I haven't worked in Holland. It's more than that though.

just watch videos of Schteve Mclaren when he was over there and smoke at home... you'll be right as rain

oh and shorter commute??? MTFU

Haha, I don't cycle commute atm :P

Cycled absolutely everywhere in Cambridge. To school, college, work, parties, clubbing, friends, job centre - everywhere. Whole family did.

shouldbeinbed

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm bored now.

Kept me entertained today!

But I really do want to move country. Anyone got any suggestions on how to persuade the girlfriend? It was tough enough getting her to London...

May I ask why you want to move?

I'm not especially happy here.

I see people I know and how they live in Holland, and, given my background, I just seem to feel more comfortable over there. I just feel I get it, and people get me more there.

More practically, most commutes in Holland are shorter, the work culture seems to suit me better. I'm slightly highly strung, and generally the way Holland does life would ease that. The way they socialise and drink even doesn't make me feel uncomfortable like it does here. There's more than one way to socialise and drink- in fact theres loads, maybe you and your circle of friends interests are incompatible - time for a tad of compromise or some more suited friends and a different venue or two

England always feels extreme. This is a good example. Protest ostensibly about cuts, immediately 4,000 police officers, riot police, helicopters. Want to go to my local football club? It'll immediately be £40-50 for a match and on a week day, probably the champions league. people die in protests in other countries by the hands of each other and the law enforcement agencies. light touch policing in the very recent past has seen massive kick off's and civil disobedience of an unprecedented nature including the rights of many people to live and work trampled, in several cases to death, by people claiming protest as a motive.
As for the football analogy. you are aware there are more than 20 football clubs in this country aren't you? Your (and my longtime) hometown club have always existed at a lower level, theres hundreds of clubs plying a semi/professional level who would love your support for far less money.

The only thing I can think I would genuinely miss would be the food variety and restaurants, but even then, that's only really exclusive to London. Even my mates who I assumed would end up in London have all moved out of the country bar two. variety of food only available in London!!!!!!!!! you know the rest of us have indoor toilets and electric lighting now don't you. FFS grow up and stop sounding like such a whining parochial narrow minded snob

It all makes more sense to me on the continent.bye then

Edit: typos

MaxwellBygraves

Interestingly, and perhaps surprising in the face of the Daily Mail propoganda, the best rated comments on the Mail article are generally positive and in favour of the students - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... d-bud.html

Take from this what you will...

MaxwellBygraves

W1 wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, I'll ask again, why should a legitimate protester have their rights trampled on if some numpty standing next to them hits a policeman?

W1 doesn't give a shoot about the other protesters.

I give more of a shoot about people not involved in the protest at all, but who have to deal with the consequences.

There was virtually zero trouble today. Shame on the police - removing people from Trafalger square who wanted to protest peacefully and democractically? So the message is - protest how and when we say so. Very worrying.

rick_chasey

Shouldbeinbed - noted.

The lack of violence can be interpreted on what side of the fence you stand. You could easily say that the very heavy police presence was justified, since their presence stopped any hassle - or you can say there was no need for so many police since there was little trouble.

Gussio

rjsterry wrote:

I mean things have been better, but I don't think that's confined to the UK.

Michael Portillo spoke at a dinner I attended yesterday evening. Not got much time for him, but one the things he pointed out is that the current "global" crisis only relates to around 40% of the world by GDP. The remaining 60% is experiencing growth of around 6%. I can't vouch for the veracity of the numbers, but it did get me thinking about how quickly the economic shift is taking place from West to East. There are places with better growth prospects than the UK (and the West in general), but in many instances you'd have to balance that prospect of growth with serverely curtailed individual rights. Good food in China and India, mind you.....

W1

Rick Chasey wrote:

The lack of violence can be interpreted on what side of the fence you stand. You could easily say that the very heavy police presence was justified, since their presence stopped any hassle - or you can say there was no need for so many police since there was little trouble.

Based on what happened last time the students protested with little police control, I think it's more likely to have been the former rather than the latter.

W1

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm not especially happy here.

I see people I know and how they live in Holland, and, given my background, I just seem to feel more comfortable over there. I just feel I get it, and people get me more there.

More practically, most commutes in Holland are shorter, the work culture seems to suit me better. I'm slightly highly strung, and generally the way Holland does life would ease that. The way they socialise and drink even doesn't make me feel uncomfortable like it does here.

England always feels extreme. This is a good example. Protest ostensibly about cuts, immediately 4,000 police officers, riot police, helicopters. Want to go to my local football club? It'll immediately be £40-50 for a match and on a week day, probably the champions league.

The only thing I can think I would genuinely miss would be the food variety and restaurants, but even then, that's only really exclusive to London. Even my mates who I assumed would end up in London have all moved out of the country bar two.

It all makes more sense to me on the continent.

So you want to move somewhere more boring then - may I suggest Belgium?

rick_chasey

W1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The lack of violence can be interpreted on what side of the fence you stand. You could easily say that the very heavy police presence was justified, since their presence stopped any hassle - or you can say there was no need for so many police since there was little trouble.

Based on what happened last time the students protested with little police control, I think it's more likely to have been the former rather than the latter.

Point proven.

W1

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Please explain this 'collossal' ignorance...

Do I really need to? I am sure that you are open minded enough to be able to understand the reality of both the economic "crisis" and university funding without resorting to media-spun scapegoating and misinformation....

W1

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

W1 wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, I'll ask again, why should a legitimate protester have their rights trampled on if some numpty standing next to them hits a policeman?

W1 doesn't give a shoot about the other protesters.

I give more of a shoot about people not involved in the protest at all, but who have to deal with the consequences.

There was virtually zero trouble today. Shame on the police - removing people from Trafalger square who wanted to protest peacefully and democractically? So the message is - protest how and when we say so. Very worrying.

They removed people who wanted to do "another St Pauls", a "protest" which should also be curtailed now (probably at night, when no-one is around).

W1

Rick Chasey wrote:

W1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The lack of violence can be interpreted on what side of the fence you stand. You could easily say that the very heavy police presence was justified, since their presence stopped any hassle - or you can say there was no need for so many police since there was little trouble.

Based on what happened last time the students protested with little police control, I think it's more likely to have been the former rather than the latter.

Point proven.

Do you not agree?

rick_chasey

Look, I don't know much about policing, but my gut instinct says that the amount of police used and the letters they sent out constituted a form of intimidation. I'm also instinctively unsettled with the use of plainclothed police in instances like this.

I tend to agree with Maxwell that I'm not comfortable with the police deciding, who should protest and where > but by and large it was peaceful, so there can't be too many complaints > as long as it was peaceful for the right reasons > i.e. not out of fear of being arrested for legitimately and fairly protesting.

MaxwellBygraves

W1 wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

W1 wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So, I'll ask again, why should a legitimate protester have their rights trampled on if some numpty standing next to them hits a policeman?

W1 doesn't give a shoot about the other protesters.

I give more of a shoot about people not involved in the protest at all, but who have to deal with the consequences.

There was virtually zero trouble today. Shame on the police - removing people from Trafalger square who wanted to protest peacefully and democractically? So the message is - protest how and when we say so. Very worrying.

They removed people who wanted to do "another St Pauls", a "protest" which should also be curtailed now (probably at night, when no-one is around).

Seriously?! Think what you are saying. You want a society and police force that can intimidate (as we have seen in the last few days) and can remove protesters for 'being there'...just because you don't like them?!

I wouldn't wish that on anyone - I'll say it again, disgusting behaviour from the police.

MaxwellBygraves

Rick Chasey wrote:

Look, I don't know much about policing, but my gut instinct says that the amount of police used and the letters they sent out constituted a form of intimidation. I'm also instinctively unsettled with the use of plainclothed police in instances like this.

I tend to agree with Maxwell that I'm not comfortable with the police deciding, who should protest and where > but by and large it was peaceful, so there can't be too many complaints > as long as it was peaceful for the right reasons > i.e. not out of fear of being arrested for legitimately and fairly protesting.

I objected to the way the police handled this one - do it here, do it our way, leave when we want, don't outstay your welcome, no peaceful protesting by Trafalger etc. etc.

Clever Pun

Well the students had their opportunity to behave in previous protests and they proved themselves unreliable and damaged a lot of businesses and buildings. ergo popo can't be seen to let that happen again so they will use a controlling hand while still allowing them their right to protest.

The press picked up the message of the protest... I think that's the point isn't it?