London 12th Nov: Tour of 10 worst junctions

richVSrich

Phew, glad this place is up and running again..obvisouly it looks different (cant tell what the changes are...but at least its back!)

Anyway, this saturday ibikelondon is organising a tour of London's top 10 worst junctions for cyclists in a similar spirit to the blackfriars bridge runs i am guessing...

meeting at 10.30am St Marks Church, near the oval.

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... -most.html

anyone think they'll be coming along?

spursn17

I probably will.

richVSrich

just wanted to bump this up...

iPete

And another bump, might come in although its a 20 mile ride. Be a great opportunity for me to actually learn my way about town and make a point

lost_in_thought

Having ridden round almost all of those junctions pretty regularly for about 5 years, I really can't see what the fuss is about. HPC especially - it even has bike crossings set up!

rjsterry

lost_in_thought wrote:

Having ridden round almost all of those junctions pretty regularly for about 5 years, I really can't see what the fuss is about. HPC especially - it even has bike crossings set up!

Really? I used to ride HPC regularly and the return journey - Piccadilly to Knightsbridge was ALWAYS hairy, particularly with cars pulling out of Grosvenor Crescent as you came up the rise. Having said that all of the junctions mentioned are easier if negotiated at roughly the same speed as other traffic - it's those that take a more leisurely pace (not you or me LiT) that have difficulties.

lost_in_thought

Very true RJS, maybe it is just a matter of speed. It also occurs to me that people who don't drive may well have a harder time, as may those who don't ride sufficiently assertively.

But, having said all that, I would argue that mindless 'hey hey hey look look look this is bad please let's make the state fix it mum mum mum I'm hungry' protestors' energy would be better placed into cyclist education on how to better deal with these junctions. Take some responsibility and effect change rather than just whingeing.

Furthermore, if you are a slower moving rider around HPC, you have the option to get from pretty much any entrance to any other via the bike routes and crossings.

Origamist

lost_in_thought wrote:

Very true RJS, maybe it is just a matter of speed. It also occurs to me that people who don't drive may well have a harder time, as may those who don't ride sufficiently assertively.

But, having said all that, I would argue that mindless 'hey hey hey look look look this is bad please let's make the state fix it mum mum mum I'm hungry' protestors' energy would be better placed into cyclist education on how to better deal with these junctions. Take some responsibility and effect change rather than just whingeing.

Furthermore, if you are a slower moving rider around HPC, you have the option to get from pretty much any entrance to any other via the bike routes and crossings.

This ^ is wrongheaded. You need to tackle one of the root causes of the problem - the inherent difficulty of negotiating a multi-lane gyratory on a bike. Cycle training and vehicular coping strategies are all well and good, but they are not going to solve the intractable problems of high volumes of traffic converging at a gyratory. These throwbacks to short-termist traffic planning/engineering, need to be more than just conduits for heavier and faster moving traffic, they need to be more car, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian friendly spaces.

mikenetic

They may be manageable for those of us who have the confidence, fitness and machinery to sprint across and around these junctions, but the aim of the campaign is to try to make some changes to help the road layouts and engineering support a broader base of cyclists.

Although I'd consider myself an experienced and confident bike commuter, I'd like to see a road network that encouraged more people to go by bike. There seems to be a lot of momentum around cycle campaigning in London (especially) at the mo, and I hope it will start to have an impact. We've put up with substandard facilities for way too long.

jonny_trousers

I reckon I must be within the top eighteen most awesome cycle commuters in the country these days, yet even I experience hairy moments at one or two of those junctions. It doesn't matter how fit or how experienced you are if you are put in a position where you have to ride dangerously close to careless, aggressive motorists driving at speed and from several angles. The issue with particularly dangerous junctions needs addressing.

Won't be able to attend the ride myself, but good on you those who do (providing you don't do one of those go-slow things that only end up annoying people and drawing negative attention).

phreak

Waterloo roundabout isn't bad at all really. Elephant & Castle tends to be worse.

rjsterry

Origamist wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Very true RJS, maybe it is just a matter of speed. It also occurs to me that people who don't drive may well have a harder time, as may those who don't ride sufficiently assertively.

But, having said all that, I would argue that mindless 'hey hey hey look look look this is bad please let's make the state fix it mum mum mum I'm hungry' protestors' energy would be better placed into cyclist education on how to better deal with these junctions. Take some responsibility and effect change rather than just whingeing.

Furthermore, if you are a slower moving rider around HPC, you have the option to get from pretty much any entrance to any other via the bike routes and crossings.

This ^ is wrongheaded. You need to tackle one of the root causes of the problem - the inherent difficulty of negotiating a multi-lane gyratory on a bike. Cycle training and vehicular coping strategies are all well and good, but they are not going to solve the intractable problems of high volumes of traffic converging at a gyratory. These throwbacks to 80s traffic modelling, need to be more than just conduits for heavier and faster moving traffic, they need to be more car, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian friendly spaces.

Further to this, I noticed last night, whilst riding through STreatham, how much difference decent street lighting makes. They've obviously upgraded this recently and it's much easier to spot potential hazards.

itboffin

I also ride those junctions most days, not seen or had a problem personally other than the constant RLJ and general poor road sense from cyclists, motorists and peds sometime the odd animal.

What scares me the most is long straight country roads in between commuter stations during rush hours, its much like trying to ride your bike along the middle of an airport runway.

You townie always moaning you have no idea :roll:

phreak

rjsterry wrote:

Origamist wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Very true RJS, maybe it is just a matter of speed. It also occurs to me that people who don't drive may well have a harder time, as may those who don't ride sufficiently assertively.

But, having said all that, I would argue that mindless 'hey hey hey look look look this is bad please let's make the state fix it mum mum mum I'm hungry' protestors' energy would be better placed into cyclist education on how to better deal with these junctions. Take some responsibility and effect change rather than just whingeing.

Furthermore, if you are a slower moving rider around HPC, you have the option to get from pretty much any entrance to any other via the bike routes and crossings.

This ^ is wrongheaded. You need to tackle one of the root causes of the problem - the inherent difficulty of negotiating a multi-lane gyratory on a bike. Cycle training and vehicular coping strategies are all well and good, but they are not going to solve the intractable problems of high volumes of traffic converging at a gyratory. These throwbacks to 80s traffic modelling, need to be more than just conduits for heavier and faster moving traffic, they need to be more car, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian friendly spaces.

Further to this, I noticed last night, whilst riding through STreatham, how much difference decent street lighting makes. They've obviously upgraded this recently and it's much easier to spot potential hazards.

The biggest problem I found when I lived in Streatham was the quality of the road. The surface on Streatham High Road is pretty awful.

jonny_trousers

Do agree that there are worse spots than those on my commute. There is a buzz around cycle safety in the media these days so more attention brought to the issue is a good thing.

lost_in_thought

Origamist wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Very true RJS, maybe it is just a matter of speed. It also occurs to me that people who don't drive may well have a harder time, as may those who don't ride sufficiently assertively.

But, having said all that, I would argue that mindless 'hey hey hey look look look this is bad please let's make the state fix it mum mum mum I'm hungry' protestors' energy would be better placed into cyclist education on how to better deal with these junctions. Take some responsibility and effect change rather than just whingeing.

Furthermore, if you are a slower moving rider around HPC, you have the option to get from pretty much any entrance to any other via the bike routes and crossings.

This ^ is wrongheaded. You need to tackle one of the root causes of the problem - the inherent difficulty of negotiating a multi-lane gyratory on a bike. Cycle training and vehicular coping strategies are all well and good, but they are not going to solve the intractable problems of high volumes of traffic converging at a gyratory. These throwbacks to 80s traffic modelling, need to be more than just conduits for heavier and faster moving traffic, they need to be more car, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian friendly spaces.

ORLY. And with the country fast running out of cash, and these junctions sandwiched between big chunks of private land, and providing some of the most important city trunk links, how do you reckon they're going to completely rework them so some cyclists can get around a little bit more safely? Are you proposing solutions to town planners/tfl or just bleating?

Take what you have and work with it. Jumping on your soapbox and yelling is not helping anyone on a day to day basis like education would.

il_principe

Thing is though Liv, some of these junctions are ludicrous. I'm not really bothered from a safety perspective, but I do wish planners in London would do more to discourage the use of private motor vehicles in central London. I ride through the Vauxhall and Wandsworth gyrators every day without issue, but I do find them really depressing. Take Wandsworth, the so called "High Street" has 4 lanes of traffic running through it. It's always crazy busy and it means that the street has no life. it's full of nasty pizza joints, petrol fumes and little else. It's not pleasant and it's bang in the middle of a residential area. The whole thing was implemented in the 70's and is outdated and outmoded. I just wish that TFL/whoever had the guts to do away with some of these 70's throwbacks and concentrate on making things more pleasant for everyone.

richVSrich

+1 Il Principe

and things can be done without having to rebuild these junctions:

extending the barclays lanes? adding traffic lights? ensuring the speed limit is 30?

and I do agree with ITB...40+ mph country lanes are scary :S

i havent ridden round most of these junctions - hopefully can make it on sat, the weather is meant to be good too (hope im not jinxing it!!)

lost_in_thought

IP, you and I so often agree on things, apart from whisky (you heathen), but this ain't one of them. I don't think these junctions are ludicrous, (why do you think they are?), and what would you have City of London do to further discourage private vehicles? If you don't like noise, traffic, and fumes, don't live in central london. It's like people moving close to an airport and then writing raging letters about the planes flying over their houses. And I'm sure (well, relatively sure) that there are 'pleasant' areas of wandsworth away from the high street.

richVSrich, it sounds like what you're essentially saying is that police enforcement of road rules needs to be better. I can't see the current City administration agreeing to more traffic lights as they have been actively removing the ones put in by Red Ken, and apparently improving traffic flow as a result. I wouldn't ever ask for more traffic lights as a cyclist, seeing as I stop at them... And the barclays lanes are flatly ignored by most motorists on busy stretches and, in my admittedly limited experience, a waste of blue paint. Enforcement is something that could help a great deal, I agree, and a far more practical idea than 'ooh these junctions should be redesigned'.

On a macro scale, it's reflective of the nanny state influence on the UK that rather than work-arounds we now get moaning.

il_principe

lost_in_thought wrote:

IP, you and I so often agree on things, apart from whisky (you heathen), but this ain't one of them. I don't think these junctions are ludicrous, (why do you think they are?), and what would you have City of London do to further discourage private vehicles? If you don't like noise, traffic, and fumes, don't live in central london. It's like people moving close to an airport and then writing raging letters about the planes flying over their houses. And I'm sure (well, relatively sure) that there are 'pleasant' areas of wandsworth away from the high street.

I think we'd agree more on Whisky these days.

I object to the way these junctions subsume everything else to appease traffic. Wandsworth - they could have run all traffic round the outside of the "Town", at the moment this happens to Eastbound. That would have made the High Street access only, and you'd have a pleasant environment - it is a High Street after all! But instead they ran all Westbound traffic straight through - 4 lanes of it. It's madness because both approaches are no more than 2 lanes, so the traffic is basically given an unnecessary 200 metre stretch of 4 lanes, and is then forced back to 2. This encourages people to race through a residential area, and prevents any life. The street could have restaurants, shops etc, which there is clearly a market for, you only have to look at Old York road by the station to see what happens when you bypass traffic. It's a quiet street with a butcher, cafes and some good restaurants, and there is clearly a demand.

Yasmin hasn't cycled on her own since we moved, because in order to get anywhere in Wandsworth Town you have to negotiate the gyratory at some point. Now I'm experienced and happy to, but even I have had 2/3 very close calls on that bit of road. One with a Greyhound coach that left me as terrified as I've ever been. Planning like this is so unhelpful as it discourages walking & cycling. What I don't understand is why so many people insist on driving around SW London. I could walk to Putney/Battersea faster than I could drive there most of the time. But I can see why many people would never dream of cycling instead.

If you ever find yourself in Wandsworth, go and have a look at the High Street. Even crossing it on foot is a PITA.

Origamist

lost_in_thought wrote:

Origamist wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Very true RJS, maybe it is just a matter of speed. It also occurs to me that people who don't drive may well have a harder time, as may those who don't ride sufficiently assertively.

But, having said all that, I would argue that mindless 'hey hey hey look look look this is bad please let's make the state fix it mum mum mum I'm hungry' protestors' energy would be better placed into cyclist education on how to better deal with these junctions. Take some responsibility and effect change rather than just whingeing.

Furthermore, if you are a slower moving rider around HPC, you have the option to get from pretty much any entrance to any other via the bike routes and crossings.

This ^ is wrongheaded. You need to tackle one of the root causes of the problem - the inherent difficulty of negotiating a multi-lane gyratory on a bike. Cycle training and vehicular coping strategies are all well and good, but they are not going to solve the intractable problems of high volumes of traffic converging at a gyratory. These throwbacks to 80s traffic modelling, need to be more than just conduits for heavier and faster moving traffic, they need to be more car, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian friendly spaces.

ORLY. And with the country fast running out of cash, and these junctions sandwiched between big chunks of private land, and providing some of the most important city trunk links, how do you reckon they're going to completely rework them so some cyclists can get around a little bit more safely? Are you proposing solutions to town planners/tfl or just bleating?

Take what you have and work with it. Jumping on your soapbox and yelling is not helping anyone on a day to day basis like education would.

The improvement programme covering a number of these junctions and the public realm has already been implemented and is happening to others as we speak. It is certainly a huge undertaking with dozens of stakeholders involved, but redesigning a number of these one way systems was necessary for a host of reasons - even in these more straitened times (the cost of cycling measures are small, btw). Returning gyratories to two way operation is feasible (once you start sticking traffic lights on gyratories as has been done at the E+C northbound and Old St it negates the advantages of smoother traffic flow).

Fighting for improved conditions for vulnerable road users is not bleating or getting on a soap-box. If you're prepared to simply accommodate the status quo, with the attendant marginalisation of cycling as a mode of transport, that's your prerogative. I'm not sure if you have been cycling in London for long, but I can assure you the conditions are far better now, than they were 15 years ago, but a lot more could still be done.

For example, what used to be the E&C southbound roundabout has been done away with. It is better for cyclists, not great, but it's still an improvement and I applaud the effort, but that does not mean we should not strive to make large junctions more cycle friendly. The E&C sb has also been improved for pedestrians - the underground tunnels have been removed as have pedestrian railings at the site of the roundabout, but the problem for pedestrians is that the phasing is still heavily weighted in favour of traffic and this means that people won't wait for 2 phases of traffic and they cross when the opportunity arises.

I could go on and explain some of the work on the other sites, but I'm not sure I'll be able to persuade you, as it appears that you believe cycle training/education is the fundamental answer to dealing with gyratories and multi-lane junctions and engineering interventions are a waste of time.

I do campaign on these issues and have been in contact with TFL, the relevant boroughs, assembly members, MPs, CTC etc, in order to try and ameliorate the conditions for cyclists and pedestrians for many years. Oh, and I'm also not a big fan of yelling.

FWIW, even the Department for Transport's own guidance states there is no safe cycling solution to a multi-lane roundabout...

rjsterry

lost_in_thought wrote:

ORLY. And with the country fast running out of cash, and these junctions sandwiched between big chunks of private land, and providing some of the most important city trunk links, how do you reckon they're going to completely rework them so some cyclists can get around a little bit more safely? Are you proposing solutions to town planners/tfl or just bleating?

Take what you have and work with it. Jumping on your soapbox and yelling is not helping anyone on a day to day basis like education would.

The thing is that some of these junctions are being reworked anyway - Blackfriars is the obvious example - in so doing making them worse for cyclists and pedestrians. E&C was done less than a year ago albeit with less negative consequences, so why the hell should we be 'making do'?

t4tomo

Isn't there a danger than if 10/200/500* (delete as applicable) people all cycle to the 10 worst junctions in London in one day and no-one get knocked off their bike then TFL, or whoever, can use that as evidence that the junctions are infact safe for cycling?

roger_merriman

regarding the one way systems Wandsworth is partially poor, Kingstons one is bad enough, feels like playing chicken crossing the road etc.

On the whole though not really sure that a big busy gyratory system is ever going to be wicker basket cyclist un scary, it's probably better to have cycle routes that avoid gyratorys, and other simular junctions.

iPete

Urgh, another fatality on the super highways
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15703169

Wish I wasn't knackered, not fancying the 20+ mile in for a 10:30am the start tomorrow.

Origamist

iPete wrote:

Urgh, another fatality on the super highways
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15703169

Wish I wasn't knackered, not fancying the 20+ mile in for a 10:30am the start tomorrow.

RIP

This was the same location (Bow roundabout) where Brian Dorling was killed nearly three weeks ago.

John Biggs asked the following question earlier this year:

"What progress has been made to provide safe pedestrian crossings at the Bow Flyover/roundabout on the A12?"

In his reply to the Labour Assembly Member, who represents City & East, Mr Johnson said: “TfL have been unable so far to find an immediate solution for providing controlled at-grade pedestrian crossings at Bow Roundabout that does not push the junction over capacity and introduce significant delays to traffic.”

The LCC wrote to TFL stating that the cycle superhighway at Bow was "woefully inadequate" ealier this year.

Robstar24

I have to say I'm completely opposed to LiT's viewpoint on this one, for the following reasons:

1) 'the whole country is broke argument' is a red herring: our car dependency costs A LOT more than reworking a few junctions in order to be more friendly to cyclists. not only does very heavy motor traffic (significant portions of which don't need to be there - something like 50% of london car journeys are under 2 miles, eminently cyclable if the roads weren't so hostile) cause much more damage to roads than bikes, requiring more maintenance and repairs, but physical inactivity is a real drain on national resources. Is it any coincidence that america has the highest obesity rate (with its associated problems) along with the highest car ownership, as well as a cycle-hostile road system? Take the Netherlands for example (from which I've recently returned following a stint working); they have cycling friendly infrastructure, cycling is normal, fewer traffic jams and generally a very healthy population (far far fewer fat ppl for instance).

2) these junctions are fine if you're an experienced cyclist (i do HCP every day myself) but not otherwise. cycling doesn't need to be this macho activity done by young guns who will cycle whatever the conditions. How about encouraging families and young kids to cycle in london? In NL kids will cycle to school from age 5 (with parents), usually on their own from age 8. Dutch teenagers have much greater independence from their parents because they can cycle to see their mates/go to the movies/for a drink, no need to rely on mummy and daddy's range rover to ferry you around. If you provide the proper facilities they will be used, rather than subsuming everything to the needs of drivers. I'd like my 1 year old son to be able to cycle to school when he's of age, but given where we live (a rather pleasant outer london borough with a pitifully low cycling rate and swarms of 4 x 4s) i'm not sure i'd be comfortable with it, because it would all be sharing the roads with said 4 x 4s, white vans etc...

3) more generally, making junctions and city streets less car-friendly will make our cities a much more pleasant place; why should everything be given off to cars, which also consume acres of land for parking? Park Lane used to be the best address in London (hence monopoly board) since then it's turned into a bog-hole 3 lane urban highway. It's such a waste. Amsterdam resisted this trend, and remains a very pleasant place to this day, as do many dutch cities. as a result it doesn't stink of petrol and isn't full of bumper to bumper traffic and tipper trucks. Our politicians give far too much of an audience to a disgruntled minority who see any restriction on their ability to go wherever they like in their large vehicles and a requirement to obey the laws as a form of persecution (in any tabloid newspaper all stories about driving will include "ANGRY/FUMING/DISGRUNTLED MOTORISTS" in the headline). One of these pressure groups, the Association of British Drivers, was given airtime on the UK's premier news programme (the Today programme on Radio 4) to talk about motoring issues. A few minutes of research found photos on their website of the 4 x 4 that some prat had driven up Mount Snowdon, with comment that this guy was somehow a hero, and their website is peppered with all sorts of references to 'the great green con etc' government just trying to make stuff up to rip beleaguered drivers off. My dutch colleagues were bemused/bewildered by the idea that in the UK it's a political issue as to whether cycle lanes are provided. For them it's just the norm, roads are for all not just for the convenience of motorists.

I've ranted enough; don't let TfL's weasel words about not impeding motor traffic flow convince you; making roads less car-friendly will decrease traffic volumes and congestion. If you make the roads ever more favourable to drivers, everyone will just drive and clog the place up. See LA as an example*

I have a car, as does my wife. I don't drive mine very much at all. I shouldn't need to say that I have a car to avoid being called some eco-loon.

Robstar24

I won't be at the tour tomorrow as I have a family commitment, but good luck to all those taking part. I can't imagine it will make much difference in the immediate, but worth a shot anyway. stay safe.

thefilbertfox

Just seen this on BBC London news as the top story including the fatality yesterday.
Seemed to be a good turn out

optimisticbiker

thefilbertfox wrote:

Just seen this on BBC London news as the top story including the fatality yesterday.
Seemed to be a good turn out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15708426

deptfordmarmoset

Robstar24 wrote:

.... don't let TfL's weasel words about not impeding motor traffic flow convince you; making roads less car-friendly will decrease traffic volumes and congestion. If you make the roads ever more favourable to drivers, everyone will just drive and clog the place up.

The traffic flow argument puzzles me. How is discouraging alternative - and smaller, more flexible - modes of transport going to improve transport? The logic seems to be: there is too much traffic on the roads so we can't competently accommodate alternatives to that traffic. There are too many cars for our roads. Sticking with an inadequate provision for bikes, etc, is never going to sort the problem. It simply makes major roads unnavigable for the many who would cycle if they thought it was safe enough. ''I can't go by bike because the traffic's terrible...''

We really need a proper assessment of the impact of cycling on traffic flow. I've never seen any evidence that more bikes on the roads will slow motorised traffic down. Do Amsterdam or Copenhagen grind to a complete standstill morning and night every working day?