Road Rage

briantrumpet

neeb wrote:

Of course there are always tossers who can't be reasoned with...

The thread about riding two abreast over on Cycle Chat is up to 43 pages in one week. It makes BR seem like a haven of tranquillity.

Ben6899

I'm with the OP on this one... benefit of the doubt, and all, that him and his mates are responsible cyclists. But some of the cycling I see, am I surprised that on the whole that motorists hate us? No.

Every day, I see "cyclists" placing themselves where drivers can do little to ensure there's no contact. Like pricks RLJing and creeping up nearsides of buses. Or weaving in and out of crawling traffic.

Pigtail

Ben6899 wrote:

I'm with the OP on this one... benefit of the doubt, and all, that him and his mates are responsible cyclists. But some of the cycling I see, am I surprised that on the whole that motorists hate us? No.

I doubt that most motorists hate us - most of them are relatively oblivious to us. However that whole premise just shows how bigoted some people can be.

A motorist sees a cyclist do something stupid - and hates all cyclists?

Think about it - isn't that just a tad irrational? Whats the betting that person also ticks some of the other boxes for discriminatory behaviour?

If a motorist does something stupid I don't hate motorists. I may hate that one temporarily - but I don't generalise it.

Ben6899

That's just one motorist though. Down here, the cyclist commuters tend to ride as if they own the road and the rules don't apply to them. And that's not me having an easy pop... go over to "Commuting", bear in mind the folk there are a minority, and have a read at some of the witness accounts of not only stupid driving, but also stupid cycling.

I don't cycle commute, but I sometimes do laps of Regent's Park for convenient exercise. And I'm sick of being half-wheeled and/or cut up by folk on BSOs just pulling out of the side roads etc.

I hate to say it's a sorry state of affairs and many would benefit from cycling proficiency training.

stifflersmom

The 2 abreast vs single file discussion arose on our mini club run yesterday. The road we were climbing was twisty and fairly narrow, but is two lanes. In single file, if a car passes safely they will be required to cross the central white line and face the oncoming traffic (if they stay in the lane and overtake they will be far too close for comfort). In these circumstances the time exposed to danger for the overtaking motorist is much less overtaking a group riding 2 abreast than overtaking a single file line. This also reduces the risk of the overtaker having to pull in mid bunch for whatever reason. There must be a limit to how many cyclists in the group there are for this to be so - yesterday there were only 6 of us. One motorist gave us some advice to get into single file - he was a driving instructor, overtaking us with a solid white line in the road. No other drivers seemed to have a problem with us riding 2 abreast.

neeb

stifflersmom wrote:

The 2 abreast vs single file discussion arose on our mini club run yesterday. The road we were climbing was twisty and fairly narrow, but is two lanes. In single file, if a car passes safely they will be required to cross the central white line and face the oncoming traffic (if they stay in the lane and overtake they will be far too close for comfort). In these circumstances the time exposed to danger for the overtaking motorist is much less overtaking a group riding 2 abreast than overtaking a single file line. This also reduces the risk of the overtaker having to pull in mid bunch for whatever reason. There must be a limit to how many cyclists in the group there are for this to be so - yesterday there were only 6 of us. One motorist gave us some advice to get into single file - he was a driving instructor, overtaking us with a solid white line in the road. No other drivers seemed to have a problem with us riding 2 abreast.

That does actually make a lot of sense for that particular situation. If only there were easy ways of signaling to drivers exactly what you were doing and why!

benhben

On the other hand, when ive been driving ive been stuck behind ignorant cyclists literally taking up half the lane whilst on a windy busy road with no overtaking opportunities. In those situations I can see why people get angry.

But there are some absolute idiots driving on our roads......well just absolute idiots in general.

tonye_n

Chip \'oyler wrote:

oodboo wrote:

Bozman wrote:

You should drop down to single file when you hear vehicles approaching, it p***es me off when you come across cyclists that refuse go drop to single file, so it's hardly surprising that some cyclists get abuse when they create a rolling roadblock.

+1 you should be riding single file when there's other traffic about. And you say they're the tossers.

Can you tell me where it says that in the Highway Code.

Why don't you both sell your bike and go and fark off and play with your car.

What a retard!

DaveMoss

There are times and places for going single file, and others where it makes more sense to stay abreast (as pointed out a few posts earlier, generally when it's a 2 lane road,but not wide enough for bike plus car plus oncoming hgv) . in fact, in these situations, going single file just invites the motorist to pass when it's unsafe so puts you in more danger.

However, when in a big group, I would deliberately try and create a gap in the group so we could be overtaken in two stages.

Some in the club argue that we should go single file anyway, just to avoid annoying motorists. I disagree, my rule in life is always do what is right, if someone gets annoyed by you doing the right thing, it's their problem. When this does happen and some idiot motorists trys to indicate we should be single file, my natural inclination is to respond aggressively, but I have found that a friendly wave and a smile works much better.

DaveMoss

oodboo wrote:

rjh299 wrote:

Why the roadie attitude comment aswell? Are you not a fellow 'roadie'?

I'm glad to say I'm not. From what I've seen on the roads and what I've read on here I've decided to stick to mountain biking where people are a lot less self righteous.

Are you kidding!! don't forget, it's the self righteous pure off roaders who first came up with the term "roadies" . Before that we were all just cyclists (and a lot of us could ride a road bike off road without the need off fat tyres and suspension to smooth out the bumps.)

But I must admit, I enjoy riding off road, mainly because I enjoy hurling abuse at walkers who don't hear me coming and don't go single file before I overtake them.

shouldbeinbed

Benno68 wrote:

oodboo wrote:

Bozman wrote:

You should drop down to single file when you hear vehicles approaching, it p***es me off when you come across cyclists that refuse go drop to single file, so it's hardly surprising that some cyclists get abuse when they create a rolling roadblock.

+1 you should be riding single file when there's other traffic about. And you say they're the tossers.

Surely this depends on the road in question and the traffic conditions. The OP has stated that he only rides two abreast on quiet roads - seems perfectly reasonable to me.

hmmm. quiet roads but 3 incidences??? no doubt there were cars going past without comment too. I'd have let the first one go s a d***head but a second and third would have given me a bit of a hint that maybe my riding 2 abreast wasn't as appropriate as I thought or was going beyond taking primary and into lane blocking.

The van driver sounds a dangerous one though. OP thats the sort of menacing behaviour I'd be making a note of the vehicle details and regstration and haveing a quick call to the cops over.

Also we're assuming it is only 2 people, 'we' could be more than that.

BobbyTrigger

no - only 2 of us. Me on my Trek and my mate on his carbon boardman

the first instance was on a country road (straight) up in Northumberland - no risk whatsoever to the driver. Kinda road you never normally see any cars other than farmers.

#2 & 3 we're on roads closer to town - the van driver was a nutter - got his plate but not the details on the side. i contemplated calling the police and reporting it but decided to put it down to experience.

#3 was on a very wide road that skirts the airport - he was just an idiot meathead charver.

i only ever ride on my own, with my mate or in a big group. never had any bother in a big group - safety in numbers i guess. as i said earlier, i've been driving for over 20 years and i consider myself to be considerate on the roads whether driving or riding - i would never intentionally block or hold someone up.

i think i've kinda made peace with it all now - i was fairly cheesed off about it over the weekend. never any bother then *boom* 3 in one morning.

in future i dont think i'll double up until i'm well outside the city limits, even if it is very quiet.

*shrug* think i just need to grow some thicker cycling skin.

portland_bill

Aye so I haven't got time to read all four pages of this but just wanted to make a comment. I live in rural Northumberland and I have passed a couple of the same cyclists a couple of times because and because I'm also a cyclist I recognised the bikes and they both ride side by side and seemingly refuse to move into single file.

The problem is, as already stated you're supposed to give the same distance as you would a car when you over-take, so when there's an extra person there, it pushes you ever further across the road when really all they have to do is pull in and you can get on your way and leave them be but these guys have obviously got a chip on their shoulder about it. The first time after I'd sat behind them around four long and blind corners, I wound my window down and wasn't shouting or being abusive just tried to reason with them and all I got was fingers. At that moment in time I was inclined to just pull back in and take the pair of them out but I just shook my head and drove on.

I came across the same bikes again a few weeks later and they did the same thing again, but this time when I had to overtake them, one of them wobbled so I moved even further out and hit a load of loose chippings which I found out when I got home have chipped the paintwork on the right hand side of my car, so trust me, next time I see them, I will be stopping.

As far as I'm concerned, my dad was a cyclist and motorcyclist too (as am I) and when he taught me to drive he told me that you can read the Highway code all you like and you can sit on/in whichever vehicle you're using and claim your rights as a road user until you're blue in the face, but when you've been knocked off your bike or run over because you've refused to avoid a risk because it was your right to be there, you might not get a chance to have your say, so you just make sure you keep yourself to yourself and keep out of every other idiot on the road's way and the best way to stay safe on the road is just to assume everyone else is a bad driver and probably hasn't even read the highway code instead of relying on their ability to drive properly and potentially putting your life in a complete stranger's hands.

When I'm riding along a road alone or with friends, I really don't see it as much of a hardship to move over and make as much room as possible for a car or whatever it is behind me to get past as quickly and as safely as possible without being a pretentious dickhead and taking up the road when I'm on a slow moving vehicle just because it's my right to be there. The only time I refuse to pull in is when there's very obvious sunken road gullies that are more likely to bend my wheels than let me ride over them and even then, it's not hard to skirt around them.

As for the decision that because you're out of the city centre and on country roads where only tractors really ever go is just wrong because those roads are normally a lot more narrow and dangerous for car drivers to get around you without the risk of hitting the hedgerow or a blind corner/summit. Country roads are often statistically the most dangerous roads in the country.

I am a cyclist and motorcyclist and I normally always side on the side of such, but this is the one issue that just strikes me as a bunch of cyclists being stroppy and self-righteous when really it wouldn't take much effort to just let people past and keep everyone happy like me and my mates do. As a result, we've never come across any agro from any drivers and fortunately none of us have been knocked off our bikes.

BobbyTrigger

@ Portland Bill

you sir, are a complete loon.

portland_bill

How's that like?

BobbyTrigger

Well I don’t know who your referring to but it’s certainly not me. I can only assume that you are a) troll and b) a sad git

"take them out"????!??

Pross

It's worrying to see cyclists suggesting that other cyclists should ride single file as that won't hold up motorists. To do some numbers a standard UK single carriageway road is 7.3m wide (2 x 3.65m) although many older roads, and in particular rural routes, will be less. A single rider will normally be riding about 0.75m from the kerb to avoid gullies etc. so their right shoulder will be say 1.1m from the kerb. An average car width with mirrors is around 2m so in order to pass a single cyclist with a vehicle coming in the opposite direction so not crossing the centre line the car would have to pass within 0.55m of the cyclist (less than 2 feet). By riding two abreast cyclists are making life safer for themselves by preventing that kind of overtaking as well as shortening the distance the overtaking vehicle has to pass. Of course, there needs to be some common sense and on some roads it is extremely difficult for a vehicle to pass safely even using the opposite lane if riders are two abreast so riders need to single out. There is also a problem that some people riding in a group are a disorganised mess rather than a tight, shoulder to shoulder group which does make passing them harder. I drive over 30,000 miles a year and can't recall ever being stuck behind a group of cyclists for more than a mile - contrast that with a trip yesterday when I was stuck a few cars back behind a 4x4 towing a livestock trailer at 30-35 mph all the way up the A49 from Leominster to Shrewsbury (about 35 miles) when the average speed on that road would be 45mph. The delay was about 15 minutes as a result and yet no-one sounded their horn or shouted obscenities at the driver whereas a cyclist delaying a car by 1 or 2 minutes will often get abused and even threatened, it is simple bullying of a smaller road user.

briantrumpet

Although the Cycle Chat thread has now been locked after 90 pages and 1343 posts, there is some exhaustive reasoning about this very subject. Some of it is worth a read, even if only to see how Cycle Chat folk think they can reason with a loony troll.

portland_bill

Sorry but I'm neither a loony nor a troll, I'm 100% serious and I still don't see which point of my message would suggest to you that I'm not. I draw your attention back to the fact that I drove off, and didn't actually take them out, but there was no need when I was trying to talk to the cyclists for them to respond so rudely to me when I wasn't being remotely aggressive at all.

I wasn't referring to you at all when talking about riders I'd come across unless you were one of them, I was merely explaining a situation I'd encountered recently since it tied in with the subject being discussed. Perfectly rational thing to do as far as I can see and not crazy in the slightest.

But hey whatever, if some people aren't allowed to voice their opinions on things then I'll leave you to your ignorant discussion.

BobbyTrigger

"I was inclined to just pull back in and take the pair of them out but I just shook my head and drove on.

I came across the same bikes again a few weeks later and they did the same thing again, but this time when I had to overtake them, one of them wobbled so I moved even further out and hit a load of loose chippings which I found out when I got home have chipped the paintwork on the right hand side of my car, so trust me, next time I see them, I will be stopping."

seems to me that your a very scarey bloke when armed with a car.

briantrumpet

Portland Bill wrote:

Sorry but I'm neither a loony nor a troll. [...]But hey whatever, if some people aren't allowed to voice their opinions on things then I'll leave you to your ignorant discussion.

Apologies, my reference to loonytrollydom was quite incidental, not directed at anyone on BR, in case you were wondering. The CC trolling included misquoting, deliberately selective quoting, inventing opinions, ignoring what people had said, imagining overwhelming support for his point of view, etc. Really in a league of its own. Healthy debate and differing opinions are good, as long as everyone will listen to each other and try to understand what each person is saying and why they are saying it.

nhoj

Portland Bill wrote:

At that moment in time I was inclined to just pull back in and take the pair of them out but I just shook my head and drove on.

That, frankly, beggars belief. And you tell us you weren't trolling? As our American cousins say, get real.

By the way, if I had felt inclined as you did, I wouldn't have committed my feelings to permanent record.

Bozman

For the obnoxious few that refuse to drop to single file on inappropriate roads - The highway code isn't going to stop you ending up under the wheels of a lorry but a little common sense may help to prevent it.

Pross

Bozman wrote:

For the obnoxious few that refuse to drop to single file on inappropriate roads - The highway code isn't going to stop you ending up under the wheels of a lorry but a little common sense may help to prevent it.

You haven't explained why it would be more likely to end up 'under the wheels of a lorry' by not riding in single file. You are more likely to do so by encouraging overtaking when there isn't sufficient width to do so.

forward_loop

I drive maybe 20,000 miles/year. I am held up by inconsiderate motorists for (in total) probably days, For inconsiderate read - anything from sitting on yellow cross hatches to causing accidents as the phone rang and needed answering. everyone pretty much just sits there - rarely do drivers seem to become disturbingly angry, been a few horn blasts and thats about it.

I'm quite happy to sit behind a couple of cyclists for as long as it takes to safely overtake, or until they realise I am there and move to single file to let me pass (and to be fair I have never come across cyclists riding two abreast intentionally disrupting traffic) etc. I have never been in such a rush that I have really - I mean really needed to pass them. Over the year, living in a popular cycling area this has amounted to maybe minutes.

On every occasion (maybe not the deepest winter or wettest days) I just wish it was me on the bike. 8)

I cant believe people claiming to be cycling enthusiasts have such extreme - and in several cases seemingly psychotic tendencies. I would have thought that the majority of the population who haven't even ridden cycles wouldn't even have such odd viewpoints.

who would ever feel that a situation is safe enough for a motor vehicle to drive alongside a cyclist in excess of 15mph and have a meaningful conversation out the window ?

You've got to chuckle though at some things, I mean imagine it. Bloke walks over to a couple of cyclists. " Oi, mate - do you realise that a couple of weeks ago your wobble caused me to drive even wider and over a patch of gravel - and a chip flew up and scratched my paintwork - what you gonna do about it ?"

Car drivers have the luxury of passive aggression - cyclists aggression is in the majority of cases (in my experience )adrenalin fuelled.

andyrr

Portland Bill wrote:

The problem is, as already stated you're supposed to give the same distance as you would a car when you over-take, so when there's an extra person there, it pushes you ever further across the road when really all they have to do is pull in and you can get on your way ..

So, you're "supposed to" give the same distance - my own view on this is it's a case of giving a safe amount of space, think of the bike as a car and don't just try to squeeze past in the same carriageway as the bike is just because it is positioned, as they normally are, towards the left hand side of the carriageway. You may need to use the outer lane / opposite carriageway to make a safe pass and, if so, you do so when it is safe.

Portland Bill wrote:

At that moment in time I was inclined to just pull back in and take the pair of them out but I just shook my head and drove on.

You are obviously impatient (lots of us are), but are someone that gives consideration, even if only briefly, to seriously deranged thoughts with potential life-ending consequences. If this was a serious thought then you need to have a word with yourself. In similar situations the worst I might do is mutter to myself "Come on, ride a bit quicker". I would NEVER think "I'm tempted to just accelerate over the top of you."

Portland Bill wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, my dad was a cyclist and motorcyclist too (as am I) and when he taught me to drive he told me that you can read the Highway code all you like and you can sit on/in whichever vehicle you're using and claim your rights as a road user until you're blue in the face, but when you've been knocked off your bike or run over because you've refused to avoid a risk because it was your right to be there,

I don't think it's necessarily a case of the cyclist thinking that he has the "right" to be placed there but a conscious thought to preserve that positioning because moving hard left to allow the impatient car driver to pass is an invitation to have them squeezing past where a less than skilled driver may misjudge the gap and actually hit you.

Portland Bill wrote:

When I'm riding along a road alone or with friends, I really don't see it as much of a hardship to move over and make as much room as possible for a car or whatever it is behind me to get past as quickly and as safely as possible

Move over and make room - sure, but think about doing it when doing so allows sufficient space for you, the overtaking car and anything else that needs consideration, eg approaching car, massive pothole 2 feet out from teh kerb, parked car just ahead etc.

Pross

Excellent, well worded response Andy.

andyrr

I think that at times it can be hard to not appear to be arrogant or bolshy at times but sometimes you have to claim that road space - I sometimes take a good glance behind me or even a small indication with the right arm to show that I am moving out if I have to actually move out but if you want (and need) to sit further out than some drivers think you should then there possibly isn't much you can do to aleviate the overly frustrated car driver behind. I've had a good few conversations, some very heated some not so, with drivers that really believed that I should only be X distance from the kerb and the Highway code states this - nonsense.
DON'T sit way out or take up a load of room JUST because you feel you should - at best you cause frustration at worst you'll get the nutter behind getting so fed up that he DOES give up waiting and just drive on without giving you space. Keep a high awareness of what is in front and behind you.

BobbyTrigger

andy - couldn't agree more. I've been riding the commute through rush hour Newcastle for the last 4 or 5 years and nothing phases on the roads through the traffic. i take space where i need it and make space for cars/buses when i think its needed - its just a case of applying common sense. Lets face it, anyone riding who also drives has no excuse not to be courteous towards other road users - ie cars etc

what got me was as a complete newbie to road riding the abuse i got on a quiet Saturday morning in the countryside.

I think drivers feel tough out in the countryside as there's no one else about - no one else to see whats happening and how they are behaving. I'm just in the process of growing thicker riding skin

Some angry angry drivers out there.

TrickyGB

Portland Bill wrote:

The first time after I'd sat behind them around four long and blind corners, I wound my window down and wasn't shouting or being abusive just tried to reason with them and all I got was fingers. At that moment in time I was inclined to just pull back in and take the pair of them out but I just shook my head and drove on.

As the second rider I find the above comment hard to believe, I've been riding a long time now and at no point has anyone ever wound down the window to discuss anything with me - nor would I throw out the fingers. I think this is either a case of mistaken identity or simply a porkie pie.

When traffic is approaching we will move to single file to allow traffic to pass, however, I would also suggest not trying to squeeze past on blind corner anyway