OT: Small children and sleep

rjsterry

rhext wrote:

What's worked for us:

1) make sure they're tired when you want to put them down. It's no good trying to get a fractious toddler to sleep at 7PM if they've had a three-hour nap in the afternoon.

2) routine helps a lot, as long as the routine doesn't involve a long afternoon nap! Especially important is routine at bedtime: in our case: food, hot bath, milk, 3 stories (no more, no less) had them almost nodding off before they even got close to the cot.

3) Sing them to sleep once they're in the cot......I dusted off an old guitar and taught myself to play a bit. They're not very discriminating at that age (thankfully), and all you need to do is distract them from crying for 5 minutes and they're gone.

Never had much luck with the 'cruel to be kind' approach. If they woke up later in the night, we just made space and went back to sleep. For us, as they got older this naturally tailed off, and I don't think their development has suffered at all.

Calpol is a painkiller, not a sedative. If it works it'll either be placebo (in which case maybe replace with a spoonful of 'special' milk) or they're genuinely in discomfort of some kind. If the latter, bed-time tends to be when it manifests. Could you be suffering from teething pain?

+1, If she's not tired, wait until she is. Don't waste another 3 hours fighting with her. +1 also on the music. I remember once when things were really bad whistling (I can't sing or play an instrument) the Night Garden theme tune for half an hour non-stop. Lastly, just because something didn't work 2 months ago, doesn't mean it won't work now. They change a lot and half the job is keeping up with what they currently love/hate.

Wrath Rob

TailWindHome wrote:

Keith1983 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Calpol and plenty of it,

Apart form the Calpol bit I agree completely. ...... Don't go filling them full of Calpol as if they are not in pain it will not help at all. You wouldn't take paracetamol if you were struggling to sleep so why give it to the kids? .

The Calpol bit was a joke

Honestly

*ahem*

I've got to say how whole heartedly I disagree with the use of Calpol as a sleep aid.

Tixylix is sooooo much better. My daughter had a cold and took in her father's footsteps of working it up into a big bought of man-flu. I bought the Tixylix, didn't read the label and gave her 2 spoonfuls, the same as Calpol. She pretty soon went to sleep, for 6 whole hours. After not being able to wake her up I read the label. Not a mistake you'll make twice.

For us, we caught this early, like at about 4 months. Not much use for you I know but its about being consistent and strong in laying down and adhereing to the routine. At 20 months they will have a lot more patience than at 4 months, but you've got to be strong and stick with it. Eventually they'll give in, even if its 10 hours later. Next night it will be less, and very soon after that they'll be on a more normal routine.

Persist with it, as it gets better. The alternative is the horror story earlier in this thread where it seriously impacts your relationship.

flimflam_machine

bails87 wrote:

Could you cut back on the number of double espressos the kids are having?

I did hear of one mum complaining to a health visitor that her child wouldn't sleep. After several hours of chatting the health visitor realised that the mum had been chain-drinking coffee and upon asking, received the answer that the mum drank umpteen cups of coffee per day. The caffeine that was passed on through the breastmilk this was just enough to keep littl'un awake.

prawny

TailWindHome wrote:

oh and consisitency is key. Our twins know as soon as CBeebies ends a 7pm the bedtime routine starts and the rountine is the same EVERY night.

Our friends think is all a bit military but with 4 kids we can't have it any other way.

+ 1 billion. 7 oclock tv off, washed and pj'd up by 7.30. Milk and a digestive biscuit then kisses and bed by 8.

Never really had any problems getting them to bed.
Did have a short period where the boy didn't want to go to sleep so screamed for a bit, in the end we just had to leave him until he passed out.
And when the girl has a cold though she can be a screamer in the night.

asprilla

rhext wrote:

What's worked for us:

1) make sure they're tired when you want to put them down. It's no good trying to get a fractious toddler to sleep at 7PM if they've had a three-hour nap in the afternoon.

The Mighty Pickle doesn't get a three hour nap in the afternoon, she gets an hour and a half, sometimes 15 minutes longer if she's tired. After that she gets woken up so that come 7 she's ready for bed.

rjsterry

Asprilla wrote:

rhext wrote:

What's worked for us:

1) make sure they're tired when you want to put them down. It's no good trying to get a fractious toddler to sleep at 7PM if they've had a three-hour nap in the afternoon.

The Mighty Pickle doesn't get a three hour nap in the afternoon, she gets an hour and a half, sometimes 15 minutes longer if she's tired. After that she gets woken up so that come 7 she's ready for bed.

This is not always so simple. Occasionally ours nods off 'too late' and then of course sleeps like a log and can not be roused for love nor money for 2-3 hours. After that, the only solution is to just put her bedtime back by 3 hours.

SimonAH

This is all you need.

Really, I mean it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Contented-L ... 0091882338

rhext

rjsterry wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

rhext wrote:

What's worked for us:

1) make sure they're tired when you want to put them down. It's no good trying to get a fractious toddler to sleep at 7PM if they've had a three-hour nap in the afternoon.

The Mighty Pickle doesn't get a three hour nap in the afternoon, she gets an hour and a half, sometimes 15 minutes longer if she's tired. After that she gets woken up so that come 7 she's ready for bed.

This is not always so simple. Occasionally ours nods off 'too late' and then of course sleeps like a log and can not be roused for love nor money for 2-3 hours. After that, the only solution is to just put her bedtime back by 3 hours.

That's more like my experience. The 'oh sh*t'' moment as you look in the rear-view mirror on the drive back from an outing when you realise that they're out for the count and won't go to sleep for hours when you finally get them home.......

UndercoverElephant

Wrath Rob wrote:

I've got to say how whole heartedly I disagree with the use of Calpol as a sleep aid.

Tixylix is sooooo much better.

Now, if you've never used Medised, you don't know what you're missing. It's a real shame, it used to be for 6 Months +, then they changed it to 2 years +, now to 6 +. That stuff is superb, I've used it myself.

Greg T

Mrs T is a Paediatrician and swears by this book and its precepts

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healthy-Sleep-Habits-Happy-Child/dp/0449004023

Its a complicated thing but effectively the idea is a good routine of plenty of rest is required. Sleeping on the move doesn't count and the idea of wearing your kids out so they have to sleep will not work. The better rested and less grumpy your kids are the more likely they are to sleep.....

Read the book.

Sometimes kids just cry . . however.

It is less likely (though common) for a child to have something mechanical going on which means they cry when they lie down - reflux for example . Might be worthwhile keeping track of where they are / what time of day / what they have eaten / if they are flat etc to see if there is a pattern.....

notsoblue

Out of interest, whats "Controlled crying" ?

UndercoverElephant

notsoblue wrote:

Out of interest, whats "Controlled crying" ?

Putting your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la, I can't hear you for longer and longer before going in.

Zachariah

From my experience, it's very much like a "Controlled Explosion".

+1 for established routine. TV off at specific time, bathroom. pyjamas, books and bed.

Avoid long daytime naps.

Don't have kids

secretsam

TailWindHome wrote:

oh and consisitency is key. Our twins know as soon as CBeebies ends a 7pm the bedtime routine starts and the rountine is the same EVERY night.

Our friends think is all a bit military but with 4 kids we can't have it any other way.

+several million - make sure junior knows it's bed time soon. Wind down, routine, up to bed, shut door. Let Junior scream all (s)he wants, occasionally check (s)he is Ok but otherwise leave alone. 4-5 nights of hell and the message will get through. Old enough to understand good behaviour and rewards?

YOU ARE IN CHARGE. Watch those awful Supernanny things, she's always dealing with this sort of thing.

Source: twins, aged 6 now, sleep well and know what bed time and morning routines are. And who love Daddy and Mummy just as much as any fussed over children

Greg T

Zachariah wrote:

Avoid long daytime naps.

Don't avoid day times naps . . enforce and protect day time naps . . . .

read the book - honest

Topaxci

Veronese68 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

oh and consisitency is key. Our twins know as soon as CBeebies ends a 7pm the bedtime routine starts and the rountine is the same EVERY night.

Our friends think is all a bit military but with 4 kids we can't have it any other way.

Agree a few hundred percent.

The consistent routine works for us. Little boy is 13 months old and races to the bathroom as soon as the bedtime song is finished at 7.
Regularly sleeps through from 7.30pm till 8.00am, on my nursery morning I have to wake him up so I can get to work on time.
If he wakes in the night (pretty rare) we leave him be and he usually settles again within 10-15 mins.

I guess we're just really lucky on that front..................sorry :oops:

NGale

There are times when I'm glad I don't have kids

secretsam

notsoblue wrote:

Out of interest, whats "Controlled crying" ?

1. Child cries (for no good reason eg at bedtime)
2. You ignore it, only checking from time to time that Junior hasn't hurt self/thrown up/gone swivel-headed
3. Child cries...etc.

Repeat until Junior gets the message and falls asleep / stops using crying to get unwarranted attention.

Namby-pambies call it "neglect", I call it sanity preservation. We had twins, if we'd picked them up every time they cried we'd never have got any peace.

Gina Ford is a goddess. End of.

asprilla

SecretSam wrote:

[ I call it sanity preservation. We had twins, if we'd picked them up every time they cried we'd never have got any peace.

Gina Ford is a goddess. End of.

If Mum and Dad are happy then The Mighty Pickle is happy.

veronese68

Asprilla wrote:

SecretSam wrote:

[ I call it sanity preservation. We had twins, if we'd picked them up every time they cried we'd never have got any peace.

Gina Ford is a goddess. End of.

If Mum and Dad are happy then The Mighty Pickle is happy.

This is true.

rjsterry

Just a thought, but if 'controlled crying' and Gina Ford worked for you, then maybe your child didn't have a problem sleeping in the first place. You can't very well leave them to get on with it when they are throwing themselves around the cot with enough force to injure themselves. As a couple including the OP have said, we are not talking about crying here, but full on apoplectic rage.

notsoblue

SecretSam wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Out of interest, whats "Controlled crying" ?

1. Child cries (for no good reason eg at bedtime)
2. You ignore it, only checking from time to time that Junior hasn't hurt self/thrown up/gone swivel-headed
3. Child cries...etc.

Repeat until Junior gets the message and falls asleep / stops using crying to get unwarranted attention.

Namby-pambies call it "neglect", I call it sanity preservation. We had twins, if we'd picked them up every time they cried we'd never have got any peace.

Gina Ford is a goddess. End of.

Its a bit like training a pet really then isn't it. Avoid rewarding/reinforcing undesirable behaviour with attention.

tailwindhome

Altogether now!


Oh the time has come......

secretsam

rjsterry wrote:

Just a thought, but if 'controlled crying' and Gina Ford worked for you, then maybe your child didn't have a problem sleeping in the first place. You can't very well leave them to get on with it when they are throwing themselves around the cot with enough force to injure themselves. As a couple including the OP have said, we are not talking about crying here, but full on apoplectic rage.

:shock: You have no idea how bad our kids could be - crashing and banging and all sorts. Eventually they just wear themselves out :roll:

We just didn't let them get away with it :twisted:

If you're really worried, get a medical professional to take a look. But IMHO, barring any medical reasons, it's like fussy eaters - no such thing exists. Kids need to learn the parameters, the rules, and the rewards for sticking to them.

Daddy has spoken.

Redhog14

Veronese68 wrote:

With our first we struggled for a bit. We eventually did the thing where you leave them to cry for a period of time, 2 minutes I think. Then go in and calm them down, then double the time to 4 minutes. Go in and calm them down. Double the time, calm, double, calm, etc,etc, etc. Until they have stopped. They will eventually. It's utterly horrible whilst you do it. But you have to stick to it. If you cav in and start to go in earlier you do actually make things worse. You will feel like an utter utter barsteward whilst you are going through this.
Stick with it and it'll work. I think it took the best part of a week.
With number 2 we were a lot stricter right from the off and never had any problems.
Mind you this was all a long time ago now. Now he doesn't want to go to bed because he wants to watch Never Mind the Buzzcocks.
Oh, soundproof the kids room.

+1 on this I used to stand next to the cot, then against the wall, then in the doorway graduating the distance, the final step was to close the door. Generally speaking most bad habits can be rectified in 3 days,5 at the outset. It is tough and I had to do it cause the then Mrs Redhog couldn't cope but trust me 3-4 nights of sticking it out and a fews weeks down the line you will wonder why you did not do it earlier!

Good luck!

rjsterry

SecretSam wrote:

You have no idea how bad our kids could be - crashing and banging and all sorts. Eventually they just wear themselves out :roll:

Oh, I do.

If you're really worried, get a medical professional to take a look. But IMHO, barring any medical reasons, it's like fussy eaters - no such thing exists. Kids need to learn the parameters, the rules, and the rewards for sticking to them.

Daddy has spoken.

There are plenty of normal things that don't require a doctor - teething, wind, colic - but will still legitimately keep a littl'un awake. A zero-tolerance approach won't help in these situations.

el_presidente

Read them some of the interminable threads on Pro Race and they will be asleep in no time. Certainly works for me.

tailwindhome

rjsterry wrote:

[There are plenty of normal things that don't require a doctor - teething, wind, colic - but will still legitimately keep a littl'un awake. A zero-tolerance approach won't help in these situations.

I heard there was no such thing as colic.... it's just something a mid wife can tell sleep deprived parents instead of saying you've got a bad 'un there.

tailwindhome

Jeez DDD, you've this forum wrecked.....

rhext

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

[There are plenty of normal things that don't require a doctor - teething, wind, colic - but will still legitimately keep a littl'un awake. A zero-tolerance approach won't help in these situations.

I heard there was no such thing as colic.... it's just something a mid wife can tell sleep deprived parents instead of saying you've got a bad 'un there.

The only people who would take that line are those who have never experienced it....

You don't know whether to break down in tears yourself or throw them out of the window. Not likely to be colic at 20 months though.