Advice on interval training - am a bit lost!
geeteewmb
Posts: 2,221
I’m getting back into road cycling after long layoff and am looking to start a interval program over the winter months.
I’m thinking of 2 interval sessions on the turbo during the week with my long road ride at the weekend.
Can anyone recommend me a program or a link of where to look as I’ve been Googling for a few days now with not much luck?
Thanks.
I’m thinking of 2 interval sessions on the turbo during the week with my long road ride at the weekend.
Can anyone recommend me a program or a link of where to look as I’ve been Googling for a few days now with not much luck?
Thanks.
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Comments
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Keep it simple would be my advice. Decide what you're training for and when. Don't start serious turbo stuff too early as it can do your head in....and when you do it do it in a focused planned way - that way you'll reap most benefits.
intervalls can be done around threshold - 2 x 20 mins is popular
or as a series of 30 sec on 30 off for half an hour where effect of lactate builds over the half hour - don't go out too mad!
Or above threshold 5 x 4:4 minutes so you only just finish number 5.
Add warm up & down - gives you an hur or so each time.
But there's loads of others that use intervals to help the time pass - pyramids, cadence exercises etc.
Good luck0 -
What are you training for would be my first question, you can still do quality sessions on the turbo that are not intervals. If you are not that fit I would suggest doing some steady state sessions to bring up your fitness levels and then do intervals.
Intervals done correctly are very hard work, and can be a bit soul destroying if you are not fit enough to actually complete them. I would concentrate on regular sessions rather than just hard sessions once or twice a week.0 -
Thanks for all the feedback so far guys. Lots to think about.
I don't have any specific goals atm, but suffice to say I'd like to not get dropped so frequently by the guys I go out with. (Used to road race and TT back in my junior days, but that was about 17 years and 3 stone ago!)
We're typically doing about 2-2.5 hours on a Saturday at about 13.5mph. So pretty slow stuff, but we're all just getting back into it - though I'm easily the least fit of the bunch.
With a demanding job and 2 young children under 4 years, time is a big factor, so am thinking that a structured interval program that I can do on the turbo from now till March next year should really help the fitness.0 -
I used the Black Book last year as the basis for my training through the winter and then started 2 x 20 intervals in the spring. My fitness improved quite a lot, especially my endurance.
The time crunched cyclist book is a worthwhile read too.0 -
Somebody pm'd me about 4:4s - 4 mins on /4 off.
The off is at very low barely pedaling and the high is a steady effort that you can just maintain for 4 minutes - as with all intervals - steady at the right level rather than too hard and fade at the end. Do it at least 4 , preferably five times. More than 8 and you are either very very fit or not trying hard enough!
They are very tough intervals, with very high heart rates (& blood pressure). Having a good base is important (and knowing you are well enough!) SBzza post is very sound - steady state and regular sessions are keys to good fitness.
Personally I wouldn't do the 4:4 stuff yet if your racing in March - wait a while. The 2 x 20 and half an hour of 30:30 will be plenty and you'll get to know how your body responds to hardish regular training before giving it the icing on the cake so to speak!
Arnie Bakers book has some ready sessions in it - which I've never used but used as inspiration for my own sessions.0 -
Well did my first turbo session last night.
Intended to do a 2x20.
So did my 10 min warm up, then started on my first 20min effort, by 15mins I was dying!
Managed to hold it for the full 20mins but after a further 10min warm down I was spent.
So 40mins with a LOT of sweating.
Not what I'd hoped for, but trying no to be to disappointed with that for my first time!
Thanks for all the advice so far folks - and please keep it coming!!
:-)0 -
GeeTeewmb wrote:Well did my first turbo session last night.
Intended to do a 2x20.
So did my 10 min warm up, then started on my first 20min effort, by 15mins I was dying!
Managed to hold it for the full 20mins but after a further 10min warm down I was spent.
So 40mins with a LOT of sweating.
Not what I'd hoped for, but trying no to be to disappointed with that for my first time!
Thanks for all the advice so far folks - and please keep it coming!!
:-)
Exactly what I said, it can be dispiriting if you feel you can't complete a session, I struggle sometimes. These sessions are very hard, and if you are not fit enough can be prone to failure, or doing them, but not really quite hard enough.
Just mix up the training with some steady state stuff, just a little under the effort for a 20 min effort, but keep it going for 60 mins, basically a tempo effort. Again this is mentally tough especially on a turbo, but it will bring on good fitness.0 -
My feeling is that the first few minutes of 2 x 20 should feel a bit too easy. The first 20 is not too bad but the last 5-10 mins of the second one really requires some serious focus. Having said that once you've cooled down you feel pretty ok.You need to keep your output/watts/speed pretty steady even if HR drifts up over time.
It shouldn't be a near death experience - but a challenge. The great thing about 2 x 20 is that most people with some fitness can do them - you don't go flat out and you can go pretty soft too!0 -
'Building a base' does not alway mean riding easy!
The OP is very time-limited. 5hr a week easy will not get him anywhere.0 -
ut_och_cykla wrote:My feeling is that the first few minutes of 2 x 20 should feel a bit too easy. The first 20 is not too bad but the last 5-10 mins of the second one really requires some serious focus. Having said that once you've cooled down you feel pretty ok.You need to keep your output/watts/speed pretty steady even if HR drifts up over time.
It shouldn't be a near death experience - but a challenge. The great thing about 2 x 20 is that most people with some fitness can do them - you don't go flat out and you can go pretty soft too!
Wish mine were like that, I use a powermeter as well, so the effort is constant, but unless I am rested enough, I find them a real struggle at times. I guess it depends on how often you do them as well. I find them a very challenging interval, both mentally and physically on a turbo. Not so bad on the road, but difficult to do without a powermeter.0 -
Tom Dean wrote:'Building a base' does not alway mean riding easy!
The OP is very time-limited. 5hr a week easy will not get him anywhere.
+1 Building a base is NOT easy riding, it is steady riding, easy riding should be saved for short recovery rides.
If you are time limited you can still build a base on high intensities, like L3 etc, just you are unlikely to get as good a base fitness. If you have 10 + Hours a week, you can do a pretty good mix of intensities, yet still build a good base. For the OP who might only be able to get 1 hour at a time on the turbo, riding at an endurance pace is unlikely to help much, so needs to go slightly harder, plus the OP gets a long ride at the weekend so that will help develop his base fitness as long as he does it hard enough.
Pete Read's book is a good starting point, but some of the ideas are out of date, if you can keep your HR in L2 on a hill, you are either walking the hill, or it isn't much more than a bump in the road. If you used a powermeter it would clearly show how easy it is to get over FTP on a hill, without the HR rising too much, if it was a shortish hill. HR just lags too much, so endurance rides should be gauged on an average HR range, rather than an absolute number.0 -
When I do 2x20 sessions on the turbo at 90-95% FTP my HR doesn't exceed 85% max.
I don't actually understand why riding at high intensity will somehow undo all the gains from riding at lower intensity. Just because Pete Reid says so doesn't cut it with me. And anyone that trains with power will know that you can put in some BIG efforts in Wattage terms without exceeding 85% HRmax so what actually is restricting your HR achieving?More problems but still living....0 -
Oooo......... it's that time of year again......... base training vs intervals during winter and what is base training
I'm in a similar position to the OP......., job, young kids......... I found that doing 3 x 1 hour turbo sessions at around 80% MHR plus a 3 hour ride in targeting a similar HR really improved my endurance last year through the winter months. I then started doing 2 x 20 once a week from March for a couple of months and that brought my fitness on a lot. I don't race and I'll never be a great cyclist but I got fitter than I'd ever been and enjoyed my summer riding so much more as a result.
Last year was the first time I'd done anything structured and I learnt lots about training and how I respond to it. This year I'm going to do a similar programme over the winter months but I'm going to add some more interval sessions as I get into the spring to see if I can improve my top end. Only time will tell whether this will work.0 -
joe2008 wrote:develop his base fitness as long as he does it hard enough.
This is bad advice, you don't need to go hard to build a base.
No it isn't, say he does 5 hours at 60% MHR, do you think this is a good session, it is a recovery effort ride dragged out too long. I said hard enough, not hard as in full on attack :roll:
If you are doing 20+ hours a week, you might need to measure your endurance ride effort, but for one long ride a week, make it count. You should make sure you keep in the L2 zone, or possibly slightly above, and this may require putting some effort in.
Some people seem to think endurance rides are just ambles in the countryside, they are not, you still need to work at keeping the effort up0 -
amaferanga wrote:When I do 2x20 sessions on the turbo at 90-95% FTP my HR doesn't exceed 85% max.
I don't actually understand why riding at high intensity will somehow undo all the gains from riding at lower intensity. Just because Pete Reid says so doesn't cut it with me. And anyone that trains with power will know that you can put in some BIG efforts in Wattage terms without exceeding 85% HRmax so what actually is restricting your HR achieving?
Different levels of effort develop different energy systems at different rates. But it doesn't work 2 ways - you can train hard but short time and do pretty well - but you can't train long and easy and expect suddenly to be able to ride hard - as I discovered last winter.
Where the levels are depend on you and your training development. Enzyme development for fat burning is probably not going to get well developed only doing 5 hrs of hard work a week, but doing one 5 hr ride easy will not develop your vo2 max or lactate threshold.0 -
SBezza wrote:ut_och_cykla wrote:My feeling is that the first few minutes of 2 x 20 should feel a bit too easy. The first 20 is not too bad but the last 5-10 mins of the second one really requires some serious focus. Having said that once you've cooled down you feel pretty ok.You need to keep your output/watts/speed pretty steady even if HR drifts up over time.
It shouldn't be a near death experience - but a challenge. The great thing about 2 x 20 is that most people with some fitness can do them - you don't go flat out and you can go pretty soft too!
Wish mine were like that, I use a powermeter as well, so the effort is constant, but unless I am rested enough, I find them a real struggle at times. I guess it depends on how often you do them as well. I find them a very challenging interval, both mentally and physically on a turbo. Not so bad on the road, but difficult to do without a powermeter.
The thing I was trying to get over is that 2 x 20 steady and sustained is beneficial at whatever level - as long as its making you puff a bit. II'm sure if you've been training a while /very fit you can/need to work much harder to gain beneifits than someone just starting out who would have to pitch thier effort much lower - but still gain beneifit from the session.
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amaferanga wrote:When I do 2x20 sessions on the turbo at 90-95% FTP my HR doesn't exceed 85% max.
amaferanga, this caught my eye, as a relative newb to heart-rate training, etc.
A 2x20 session is similar to lactate threshold test, yeah? In that we are told that the HR you can sustain for the second 20 mins of a 40-min 'hard-as-poss' effort - is your LHR.
Is LHR a certain percentage of MHR for most people? i.e., is it ususally say (at a total guess) 88-92%? Or does it vary more than that from person to person? Or less?
Because you say your HR is normally at or below 85% for this session.0 -
Yes - I think the %s are different for different peopel and at different stages of training. Mine is high - upper limit around 93 % - but its often assumed to be around 85%.
Thereof my waste of time training last year - set by a trainer who went by the numbers rather than the lactate measuremetns I gave him :roll:
So I spent all of my turbo efforts around /below 85% and developed not a bit over 4½ months .... grrr!0 -
KnightOfTheLongTights wrote:amaferanga wrote:When I do 2x20 sessions on the turbo at 90-95% FTP my HR doesn't exceed 85% max.
amaferanga, this caught my eye, as a relative newb to heart-rate training, etc.
A 2x20 session is similar to lactate threshold test, yeah? In that we are told that the HR you can sustain for the second 20 mins of a 40-min 'hard-as-poss' effort - is your LHR.
Is LHR a certain percentage of MHR for most people? i.e., is it ususally say (at a total guess) 88-92%? Or does it vary more than that from person to person? Or less?
Because you say your HR is normally at or below 85% for this session.
These 2x20 efforts are at below threshold. I'm not trying to do them as hard as I possibly can otherwise I'd not be able to do as many sessions each week. If I did them at FTP (threshold) my HR would be somewhat higher.
As I understand it LHR as a percentage of MHR varies between individuals.More problems but still living....0 -
ut_och_cykla wrote:amaferanga wrote:When I do 2x20 sessions on the turbo at 90-95% FTP my HR doesn't exceed 85% max.
I don't actually understand why riding at high intensity will somehow undo all the gains from riding at lower intensity. Just because Pete Reid says so doesn't cut it with me. And anyone that trains with power will know that you can put in some BIG efforts in Wattage terms without exceeding 85% HRmax so what actually is restricting your HR achieving?
Different levels of effort develop different energy systems at different rates. But it doesn't work 2 ways - you can train hard but short time and do pretty well - but you can't train long and easy and expect suddenly to be able to ride hard - as I discovered last winter.
Where the levels are depend on you and your training development. Enzyme development for fat burning is probably not going to get well developed only doing 5 hrs of hard work a week, but doing one 5 hr ride easy will not develop your vo2 max or lactate threshold.
Oh I get that riding at different intensities develops different energy systems, but what I don't get is how riding briefly (or otherwise) at a higher intensity during a long steady ride somehow undoes all the good from doing a long steady ride. I think this is one of the claims that The Black Book makes and I don't get it. I suspect that it's just not true, but maybe someone can tell me otherwise?More problems but still living....0 -
understood, ta.0
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SBezza wrote:joe2008 wrote:develop his base fitness as long as he does it hard enough.
This is bad advice, you don't need to go hard to build a base.
No it isn't, say he does 5 hours at 60% MHR, do you think this is a good session, it is a recovery effort ride dragged out too long. I said hard enough, not hard as in full on attack :roll:
If you are doing 20+ hours a week, you might need to measure your endurance ride effort, but for one long ride a week, make it count. You should make sure you keep in the L2 zone, or possibly slightly above, and this may require putting some effort in.
Some people seem to think endurance rides are just ambles in the countryside, they are not, you still need to work at keeping the effort up
agree totally with that0 -
Well that would be pretty boring, not all that motivating, and is a totally unnecessary (and unfounded) restriction.joe2008 wrote:I'm afraid this won't help you build the base you need. Just ride easy.
But who am I to say, so here's a word or two from Mr Read.
"So, on to the bit that matters: the efficient training of the aerobic base.
I know this is possibly the most tedious phase of training but it simply has to be done so don't neglect it.
I cannot over emphasise the importance of the need to train a good depth of aerobic base. Without a decent 'base' you will never reach your optimum potential as a competitive cyclist. The greater the base, the better, faster and longer you will compete.
The classic heart rate zone in which to train aerobic base is in the Level 2 zone. It is loosely 75-85% of your maximum heart rate.
Please read this next paragraph carefully:
While you are creating this all-important base it is essential that you do not become involved in any high intensity effort whatsoever.
This means no sprinting, no racing with club mates and no hard circuit training in the gym. In fact you don't want to see your heart rate exceed the top of Level 2 even when climbing.
I do agree that when just starting out after a long lay off, one should not do anything hard for a few weeks just to make sure everything is OK, get muscles and connective tissues a chance to adapt to the bike.
I also agree that the bulk of training should be at the levels described above, but to totally dismiss inclusion of some harder efforts makes no sense.
That's just wrong.joe2008 wrote:Any high heart rate training before the aerobic base is fully developed will simply cancel out the benefits so don't do it! The time will eventually come when I will want you to raise your effort but it isn't now."0 -
amaferanga wrote:
These 2x20 efforts are at below threshold. I'm not trying to do them as hard as I possibly can otherwise I'd not be able to do as many sessions each week. If I did them at FTP (threshold) my HR would be somewhat higher.
Are you talking about sweetspot intervals? I do 4x20 of them usually. 90% of threshold They hurt but are doable.0 -
Pokerface wrote:amaferanga wrote:
These 2x20 efforts are at below threshold. I'm not trying to do them as hard as I possibly can otherwise I'd not be able to do as many sessions each week. If I did them at FTP (threshold) my HR would be somewhat higher.
Are you talking about sweetspot intervals? I do 4x20 of them usually. 90% of threshold They hurt but are doable.
I guess so. Probably borderline between what I'd call SST and what I'd call L4.More problems but still living....0 -
While we’re on this subject (and sorry if I've crapped on about this before / for hijacking the thread)…
My local spin class uses a Suunto system of five zones based on percentage of MHR – the top two zones are 85-92% and >92%. I have not done an MHR test.
But an ‘informal’ test put my LTHR c.177.
Question is, where do I place my LTHR in these zones – at the moment I have it at 92% i.e., the boundary between Z4 & 5.
Whereas by the sound of it, it could equally be the boundary between Z3 & 4 (85%) or anywhere between 85% and 92%?
In terms of feel / RPE – it seems like it should be closer to 92%, as I find it pretty tough operating above 177 for long.0 -
There is no "boundary". And by LTHR I assume you mean threshold pace, as in a time trial race effort of 40-60 minutes (as LT is an effort level somewhat less than that - typically 10-15% less power than threshold power).
What HR will be when riding at threshold levels is within a range. 92% is pretty high, more like what you might see at the end of such an effort. If you are doing 92% "comfortably", then your max is probably higher than you think it is. 87-92% is pretty typical.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:There is no "boundary". And by LTHR I assume you mean threshold pace, as in a time trial race effort of 40-60 minutes (as LT is an effort level somewhat less than that - typically 10-15% less power than threshold power).
ah well I've been mistaken here then, because that's exactly what I thought LTHR was: the HR at threshold pace. The test I did was to ride as hard as I could for 40 mins, taking the average heart rate for the latter 20 mins.
So lactate threshold heart rate is not = HR at threshold pace?0
